U.S. Women [#5]: Remain on the Dance Floor

[skatingguy]

Does it need to be fixed? She’s the world silver medalist. It’s not like it’s holding her back.

It's more a question of whether it continues to hold - she had a couple competitions this season where it didn't hold up, and it's not clear if that was because the technique was failing for physical reasons, or emotional, or psychological reasons.

 

[Maximillian]

Another brokenhearted Sasha fan here. I thought I’d pass out when she fell on her first two jumps in Turin. All I wanted was to see that program clean.

Since then I ubered Mirai (another exercise in frustration), Med and Kaori. The last two were so much better for my blood pressure.

I'm with you on all of the above, it's been so nice with Kaori to see all those winning LPs as opposed to inevitable fall (Sasha) or UR (Mirai).

 

[barbk]

If our definition of clean doesn't account for under rotations or incorrect edges.

People do what you pay them to do.

In that era, landing at least one of every kind of triple (except the axel) without double footing was the expectation for women. So was having a strong spiral, spins that stayed stuck in one position, and footwork that moved. Falls were a HUGE negative.

Today we have top female skaters who can't/don't consistently land one of the types of triples, though they might be able to land a triple axel or a quad. Spirals are pretty blah and mostly very short, spins are more complex and messy, and footwork meanders with great complexity and not much interest. Falls get a ding, but you can still earn points from a jump that ends in a fall.

I'm not arguing that skaters from before were somehow better...just that in each era, skaters make choices to optimize their results.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I'm not arguing that skaters from before were somehow better...just that in each era, skaters make choices to optimize their results.

Absolutely. I just think that the definition of "clean" in that era was wrong, which is why, even as much as Shizuka Arakawa, my favorite woman of the post-figures era, would/should have been slammed by the unders and lips, I still think it should have been judged correctly. (Technically, she competed under the first two years of CoP, but mostly under 6.0.)

 

[thvu]

If our definition of clean doesn't account for under rotations or incorrect edges.

Sarah Hughes 100% used this definition of clean for the 6.0 era on her way to an Olympic Gold Medal.

 

[kwanfan1818]

So did Lipinski. Cue, "Tradition!" from Fiddler.

 

[Karen-W]

Sarah Hughes 100% used this definition of clean for the 6.0 era on her way to an Olympic Gold Medal.

It's not her fault the judges gave her the marks they did. She earned her gold medal and any way you slice it, she wouldn't be able to call herself that had either Slute or MK skated clean.

 

[kwanfan1818]

That's the point: that the judges were judging by the standards of the time, and she maximized what she could do within those standards and won.

Or maybe the judges are still using the same standards, but there's a technical panel.

 

[Karen-W]

That's the point: that the judges were judging by the standards of the time, and she maximized what she could do within those standards and won.

Or maybe the judges are still using the same standards, but there's a technical panel.

Yes, which adds just an extra layer of opportunity for fans to criticize and complain about the results because we know that not all tech panels are the same and even within a competition some skaters get away with questionable edges or rotations and others do not.

 

[Private Citizen]

It's not her fault the judges gave her the marks they did. She earned her gold medal and any way you slice it, she wouldn't be able to call herself that had either Slute or MK skated clean.

Agree, and both Kwan and Slutskaya deserved at least ! on both lutz and flip. Both of them had unclear edges on both jumps. Kwan's flip in the 2002 short program deserved << and probably -4 or even -5, and I'm not sure she got the rotation in the free skate either.

People pick on Sarah Hughes, and deservedly so, but then ignore that other skaters would've been hit by today's technical standards, too.

 

[Karen-W]

Agree, and both Kwan and Slutskaya deserved at least ! on both lutz and flip. Both of them had unclear edges on both jumps. Kwan's flip in the 2002 short program deserved << and probably -4 or even -5, and I'm not sure she got the rotation in the free skate either.

People pick on Sarah Hughes, and deservedly so, but then ignore that other skaters would've been hit by today's technical standards, too.

And, based on how we've seen the tech reviews applied to skaters nowadays, what are the chances that those three would have had the jump issues you noted actually called? Going into SLC they were the reigning World medalists so would their jumps received the same degree of scrutiny as someone further down the ranks?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Agree, and both Kwan and Slutskaya deserved at least ! on both lutz and flip. Both of them had unclear edges on both jumps. Kwan's flip in the 2002 short program deserved << and probably -4 or even -5, and I'm not sure she got the rotation in the free skate either.

People pick on Sarah Hughes, and deservedly so, but then ignore that other skaters would've been hit by today's technical standards, too.

How is queen Angela? I remember Dick sayings her technique was pure. Did she have any edge issues?

 

[Maximillian]

How is queen Angela? I remember Dick sayings her technique was pure. Did she have any edge issues?

I wanna say she had a lip...but I can't remember for sure.

 

[tony]

I wanna say she had a lip...but I can't remember for sure.

Outside to inside edge on Lutz takeoff, pretty sure. Flip was always fine.

 

[barbk]

I'm pretty sure I never heard much about lutz takeoff edges until Nicole Bobek's became infamous.

There was much grousing in fandom back then (and, perhaps even now) that the end of figures led to this...but most of those skaters competed at least in their earlier years in figures. Personally, I think that judges just didn't much care about that...but if you had a reputation as a two-footer, you really got nailed with that.

 

[Maximillian]

I'm pretty sure I never heard much about lutz takeoff edges until Nicole Bobek's became infamous.

There was much grousing in fandom back then (and, perhaps even now) that the end of figures led to this...but most of those skaters competed at least in their earlier years in figures. Personally, I think that judges just didn't much care about that...but if you had a reputation as a two-footer, you really got nailed with that.

The first I recall hearing about the flutz was between the camps of Michelle and Tara back in the day and then Bobek was brought into it because her flutz was far more egregious than the other two's were, IIRC.

 

[Maximillian]

Obviously, someone never watched 2001 worlds in Vancouver

Ironically, I was there and saw it live and loved every second of it. I was a huge Nikidinov fan but didn't don't delude myself that she was ever going to land all of her planned triples in a program. Even in Van I think she doubled one toward the end, no? I can't remember.

 

[Coco]

Neither here nor there, but would love Amber to skate an exhibition to "I'm just Ken."

 

[Sylvia]

Yesterday Mia Kalin posted a photo with Cindy Stuart to thank her for choreographing her new FS (music not revealed): https://www.instagram.com/p/C5HMjOAS2eM/

 

[Allskate]

Neither here nor there, but would love Amber to skate an exhibition to "I'm just Ken."

And then Isabeau can skate to "What Was I Made For." I seriously would love to see this.

Isabeau is performing in the Japanese SOI shows.

Isabeau and Hana (Hanna?) Yoshida just posted IG stories of them together with some of the other skaters. Piper took the photos:

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[Karen-W]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Isabeau skate to "What Was I Made For" - that has a lovely, haunting, lyrical quality that I believe would suit her balletic grace while pushing her just a tiny bit out of her comfort zone with emoting/presentation.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

And y’alllllll got some nerve having an opinion on ambers music a few seasons ago.

What was I made for might be the most emo of all emo music there is right now.

But having said that I approve the piece of music.

 

[Karen-W]

And y’alllllll got some nerve having an opinion on ambers music a few seasons ago.

What was I made for might be the most emo of all emo music there is right now.

But having said that I approve the piece of music.

LMAO! The difference is that Isabeau isn't skating to emo music all the time the way Amber was for several seasons there.

 

[peibeck]

Dear Lord, no. Do y'all hate me? No Billie Eilish.

Also I hardly see Isabeau's camp straying there. But I sadly fear others will.

 

[Maximillian]

I liked that song until it was pointed out to me that her inhales are audible everytime right before she sings a lyric and now I can't unhear it.

 

[Trillian]

I liked that song until it was pointed out to me that her inhales are audible everytime right before she sings a lyric and now I can't unhear it.

Yeah, Billie Eilish has a fine singing voice (and some songwriting talent!), but it’s pretty obvious nobody ever taught her to use it. I’ve never had vocal training and I can tell she needs vocal training. That said, I don’t hate the suggestion of “What Was I Made For?” for Isabeau.

Amber doesn’t need to skate to “I’m Just Ken” when there are artists like Chappell Roan, MUNA, Rina Sawayama, etc. that she hasn’t touched yet. Give me a “Pink Pony Club” gala program, please and thank you.

 

[skatingguy]

Yeah, Billie Eilish has a fine singing voice (and some songwriting talent!), but it’s pretty obvious nobody ever taught her to use it. I’ve never had vocal training and I can tell she needs vocal training. That said, I don’t hate the suggestion of “What Was I Made For?” for Isabeau.

Amber doesn’t need to skate to “I’m Just Ken” when there are artists like Chappell Roan, MUNA, Rina Sawayama, etc. that she hasn’t touched yet. Give me a “Pink Pony Club” gala program, please and thank you.

Eilish's music vocals are a deliberate artistic choice, not the result of lack of training.

 

[Sylvia]

2024 U.S. national competitor Wren Warne-Jacobsen (13th in her Senior debut in Columbus) turned 21 yesterday and skated to "What Was I Made For" in her club’s show in Shakopee, MN (saw a clip in her Insta stories): https://www.instagram.com/p/C5Kiyw2OklK/

 

[Trillian]

Eilish's music vocals are a deliberate artistic choice, not the result of lack of training.

There’s a lot I like about both her singing and her artistic choices in general, but her approach is very demanding in terms of breath control and I don’t find it as effective in live performances. YMMV. I like her studio recordings, so I never mind hearing them pop up in skating.

 

[Rukia]

Amber doesn’t need to skate to “I’m Just Ken” when there are artists like Chappell Roan, MUNA, Rina Sawayama, etc. that she hasn’t touched yet. Give me a “Pink Pony Club” gala program, please and thank you.

yesssssssss I've had Chappel Roan's Tiny Desk Concert on repeat lately. Red Wine Supernova would kind of slay too.