U.S. Women [#4]: How Dare You

[Deleted member 221]

Not to put too much of a damper on things, but Bradie hasn't landed a triple-triple combination at all this season, isn't attempting a triple flip, and hasn't gotten through a free skate without a fall. It's great to see positive momentum, but I wouldn't bet on her any more than I would Gracie Gold.

I do like her programs, voiceover notwithstanding, and she may be the best spinner in the world, at least in terms of speed and centering.

 

[Karen-W]

Not to put too much of a damper on things, but Bradie hasn't landed a triple-triple combination at all this season, isn't attempting a triple flip, and hasn't gotten through a free skate without a fall. It's great to see positive momentum, but I wouldn't bet on her any more than I would Gracie Gold.

I do like her programs, voiceover notwithstanding, and she may be the best spinner in the world, at least in terms of speed and centering.

Well, considering how poorly she skated in the SP at both of her GP events, seeing her get through Golden Spin with a clean SP was a pleasant surprise. If she and her coaching team have realized that taking a more conservative approach, like that of Kihira, is wiser, then good on them for making the adjustments between Espoo and Golden Spin.

The US women's field is so inconsistent right now that I don't think Bradie can be ruled out of the conversation for the 4CCs and Worlds teams.

Isabeau + pick two of the following six women: Lindsay, Amber, Starr, Bradie, Audrey & Ava

 

[Deleted member 221]

Isabeau + pick two of the following six women: Lindsay, Amber, Starr, Bradie, Audrey & Ava

Does Gracie Gold have the minimums? I would put her on the same level as Bradie, and she's been generally good in the short program. She could do a short program with 3Lz3T and find herself second in the short program; maybe first if Levito had a freak mistake. An excellent short program might give her enough of a lead that she could hold on for bronze even if she continues to run out of gas in the free. The reverse skate order helps.

I feel like Izzo and Seo may have outside chances, too. The women have been all over the place. It's wide open beyond Isabeau, IMO.

I've been most impressed with Audrey Shin on the Grand Prix. I love Ava, but Junior Worlds (+4CC) might be a better place for her this year.

 

[Sylvia]

Does Gracie Gold have the minimums?

She lacks the FS minimum for Worlds. My list from last month now includes Bradie (36/59 TES at Golden Spin) as the 9th U.S. woman with both Worlds minimums (of the those who've qualified for Nationals): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/u-s-women-4-how-dare-you.110065/page-7#post-6341729

 

[hoptoad]

If you could send Isabeau to a new coach who would improve her jump technique, who would it be?

There's a lot to like in her skating, but perhaps her current coach has brought her as far as she can.

 

[Wyliefan]

Orser's good at fixing bad jump technique, but that would be a long way from home for a 15 year old.

 

[Vagabond]

Malinina and Skornikov.

 

[Karen-W]

Does Gracie Gold have the minimums? I would put her on the same level as Bradie, and she's been generally good in the short program. She could do a short program with 3Lz3T and find herself second in the short program; maybe first if Levito had a freak mistake. An excellent short program might give her enough of a lead that she could hold on for bronze even if she continues to run out of gas in the free. The reverse skate order helps.

I feel like Izzo and Seo may have outside chances, too. The women have been all over the place. It's wide open beyond Isabeau, IMO.

I've been most impressed with Audrey Shin on the Grand Prix. I love Ava, but Junior Worlds (+4CC) might be a better place for her this year.

Gracie has the 4CC mins. The only change from this post is that Bradie now has the Worlds mins.

TES minimums for 2023 Worlds are 32 & 53 - these 8 (qualified for Nationals) have both:

Starr ANDREWS USA ISU Four Continents Championships 2022 20/01/2022 35.54 S ISU GP Skate Canada International 2022 29/10/2022 64.87 S

Amber GLENN USA ISU GP Skate America 2022 22/10/2022 36.69 S ISU GP Guaranteed Rate Skate America 2021 24/10/2021 67.57 S

Hanna HARRELL USA ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2022 16/09/2022 33.64 S ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2022 17/09/2022 59.52 S

Gabriella IZZO USA ISU CS 53rd Golden Spin of Zagreb 2021 09/12/2021 34.79 S ISU Four Continents Championships 2022 22/01/2022 58.44 S

Isabeau LEVITO USA 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 05/08/2022 38.40 S ISU GP MK John Wilson Trophy 2022 13/11/2022 74.18 S

Audrey SHIN USA ISU Four Continents Championships 2022 20/01/2022 36.40 S ISU Four Continents Championships 2022 22/01/2022 72.32 S

Lindsay THORNGREN USA 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 05/08/2022 38.25 S Challenge Cup 2022 27/02/2022 73.31 S

Ava Marie ZIEGLER USA ISU GP Skate Canada International 2022 28/10/2022 35.09 S ISU CS Budapest Trophy 2022 16/10/2022 66.67 S

Still needs one of the Worlds minimums (Gold & Hilmer have the 4CC minimums of 25 & 42) of those who have qualified for Nationals AND have competed internationally so far this season:

Gracie GOLD USA 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 05/08/2022 35.70 S 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 06/08/2022 52.63 S

Sonja HILMER USA ISU CS U.S. International FS Classic 2022 14/09/2022 31.13 S ISU CS U.S. International FS Classic 2022 15/09/2022 60.25 S

Clare SEO USA ISU CS IceChallenge 2022 11/11/2022 22.80 S ISU CS IceChallenge 2022 12/11/2022 55.82 S

ETA that Bradie does have the 4CC minimums of the 12 women who are qualified to compete at Nationals currently on the ISU's TES senior scores list:

Bradie TENNELL USA ISU GP MK John Wilson Trophy 2022 12/11/2022 28.90 S ISU GP MK John Wilson Trophy 2022 13/11/2022 45.25 S

Jr Worlds TES mins are 25/40 - these are the women who have them and are competing at Nats in either Jr or Sr -

Mia BARGHOUT USA 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 04/08/2022 28.65 J 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 05/08/2022 46.63 J

Sarah EVERHARDT USA 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 04/08/2022 33.90 J 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 05/08/2022 51.28 J

Hannah HERRERA USA Egna Spring Trophy 2022 07/04/2022 30.46 J ISU JGP Riga Cup 2022 09/09/2022 50.90 J

Logan HIGASE-CHEN USA ISU JGP Solidarity Cup 2022 29/09/2022 30.98 J 2022 Cranberry International 12/08/2022 54.18 J

Josephine LEE USA ISU JGP Baltic Cup 2022 06/10/2022 34.36 J ISU JGP Solidarity Cup 2022 30/09/2022 61.74 J

Soho LEE USA ISU JGP Riga Cup 2022 08/09/2022 35.69 J ISU JGP Riga Cup 2022 09/09/2022 65.42 J

Isabeau LEVITO USA ISU World Junior Championships 2022 16/04/2022 41.33 J ISU JGP Cup of Austria 2021 09/10/2021 73.56 J

Elyce LIN-GRACEY USA ISU JGP Czech Skate 2022 01/09/2022 29.11 J ISU JGP Baltic Cup 2022 07/10/2022 53.90 J

Clare SEO USA ISU JGP Courchevel 2021 19/08/2021 36.60 J ISU World Junior Championships 2022 17/04/2022
66.83 J

Phoebe STUBBLEFIELD USA 2022 Cranberry International 11/08/2022 28.80 J 2022 Cranberry International 12/08/2022 50.97 J

Lindsay THORNGREN USA ISU JGP Ljubljana Cup 2021 23/09/2021 40.90 J ISU World Junior Championships 2022 17/04/2022 72.40 J

Sherry ZHANG USA ISU JGP Egna-Neumarkt 2022 14/10/2022 32.05 J ISU JGP Egna-Neumarkt 2022 15/10/2022 60.10 J

Ava Marie ZIEGLER USA ISU JGP Kosice 2021 02/09/2021 32.77 J ISU JGP Kosice 2021 04/09/2021 59.62 J

Additionally, these two skaters have one of the mins, but need the other (Bavarian Open?)
Elsa CHENG USA 2021 Cranberry Cup International 12/08/2021 23.92 J 2021 Cranberry Cup International 13/08/2021 47.96 J

Katie KRAFCHIK USA 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 04/08/2022 30.12 J 2022 Philadelphia Summer International 05/08/2022 37.56 J

I'd say that Jr Worlds assignments will really depend on the results of both Sr & Jr Nationals. Probably the top senior woman who doesn't make the 4CCs/Worlds team and is age-eligible will be assigned to Jr Worlds. I'd guess that Thorngren, Ziegler or Josephine Lee are more likely than Clare Seo at this point, but who knows? Soho Lee seems a sure bet for the Jr Worlds team and the 3rd spot could be another senior, but it could easily go to a junior woman.

 

[bladesofgorey]

If you could send Isabeau to a new coach who would improve her jump technique, who would it be?

There's a lot to like in her skating, but perhaps her current coach has brought her as far as she can.

This is a good question. Her speed is much improved this season, but her jumps are not- they may be slightly bigger but the technique is still sketchy as all get out. In the slowmo of the opening triple lutz she fell out of she rotated almost one full revolution back to forward before lifting off the ice. The other jumps didn't appear to have as much pre-rotation (I've never seen that much in a high level skater! But it's there and is part of why the takeoffs seem so jerky- her upper body rotates almost all the way back to forward even when her foot doesn't). Maybe it's just a matter of her working intensively with a jump specialist and not leaving her current coach? I wonder if that would happen though- in the recent interview her coach lamented the Russians not being in competitions and the fact that made them have to switch to work on Isabeau's other skills instead of gaining quads as they'd previously planned to focus on. That makes me think that until (if it ever happens) judges stop rewarding her poorly executed jumps with high GOE there won't be any move to address them.

 

[Karen-W]

This is a good question. Her speed is much improved this season, but her jumps are not- they may be slightly bigger but the technique is still sketchy as all get out. In the slowmo of the opening triple lutz she fell out of she rotated almost one full revolution back to forward before lifting off the ice. The other jumps didn't appear to have as much pre-rotation (I've never seen that much in a high level skater! But it's there and is part of why the takeoffs seem so jerky- her upper body rotates almost all the way back to forward even when her foot doesn't). Maybe it's just a matter of her working intensively with a jump specialist and not leaving her current coach? I wonder if that would happen though- in the recent interview her coach lamented the Russians not being in competitions and the fact that made them have to switch to work on Isabeau's other skills instead of gaining quads as they'd previously planned to focus on. That makes me think that until (if it ever happens) judges stop rewarding her poorly executed jumps with high GOE there won't be any move to address them.

I suspect that time will take care of that... Can't hold off puberty forever and we've seen what happens to these jumps from the Russian youngsters once they get to around 17-18...

 

[Deleted member 221]

What issues do people have with Isabeau's jumps, other than the lutz? Her axel, toe loop, salchow, and loop all look as good as anyone else's to me.

Her flip and lutz entry edges are a little bit shaky, but Sakamoto is heavy flutzer (and has poor picking technique), Mihara is heavy lipper, Hendrickx is a light flutzer, the Korean girls all "lip," as do Thorngren and Tennell. Hendrickx can't do a loop at all. Other than Sakamoto and lately (but not always) Mihara, the other women I mentioned are chronic underrotaters.

I really don't see Levito's technique as being worse than anyone else's. She gets good spring on her jumps, very rarely underrotates, and avoids edge calls even if both the lutz and flip occasionally slip into ! territory. Sure, she slows down heading into her lutz and stalks it a bit, but I don't see this as being the huge issue that other people do, given how many jump problems the other women have.

 

[PRlady]

What issues do people have with Isabeau's jumps, other than the lutz? Her axel, toe loop, salchow, and loop all look as good as anyone else's to me.

Her flip and lutz entry edges are a little bit shaky, but Sakamoto is heavy flutzer (and has poor picking technique), Mihara is heavy lipper, Hendrickx is a light flutzer, the Korean girls all "lip," as do Thorngren and Tennell. Hendrickx can't do a loop at all. Other than Sakamoto and lately (but not always) Mihara, the other women I mentioned are chronic underrotaters.

I really don't see Levito's technique as being worse than anyone else's. She gets good spring on her jumps, very rarely underrotates, and avoids edge calls even if both the lutz and flip occasionally slip into ! territory. Sure, she slows down heading into her lutz and stalks it a bit, but I don't see this as being the huge issue that other people do, given how many jump problems the other women have.

It’s the low upper-body position and jerking it into rotation that bother me. The jumps are unpleasant to look at, like Grassl’s. It’s great that she doesn’t UR but her way of getting there is at best weird.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

All that in addition to the ISU getting super nitpicky on very specific jump errors while ignoring others and then only getting super nitpicky on some skaters while ignoring those errors in others. The ISU needs to work on a way for a computer to call all jump issues because they clearly are incapable of being fair. But, you know, whatever.

 

[bladesofgorey]

It’s the low upper-body position and jerking it into rotation that bother me. The jumps are unpleasant to look at, like Grassl’s. It’s great that she doesn’t UR but her way of getting there is at best weird.

Agree, but even though her landings are called clean she often does over rotate the take-offs- and let me just state for the record I have always rolled my eyes in the past at people complaining about top skaters pre-rotating on their take-offs because it's usually not much of an issue. Depending on technique all skaters pre-rotate on the toepick from 1/4 to almost 1/2 turn, in order for jumps to rotate at all this needs to happen. This is a whole other level though. To be clear, more often than not her foot only rotates to forward on jumps, which I don't think needs to be downgraded. But when it rotates more than that it should be. I don't mean to pick on her, it's because I find this so frustrating it's not being addressed in training or the marks given her other fantastic qualities.

 

[toddlj]

Isabeau + pick two of the following six women: Lindsay, Amber, Starr, Bradie, Audrey & Ava

If I was a betting man, I'd go with Isabeau, Lindsay, Amber and Audrey.

Gold - Isabeau because... duh.
Silver - Lindsay has a very high base value and other than (sometimes severe) competition nerves, is well-rounded and seen as "the future."
Bronze - Amber also has a high base value and tends to score well at Nats even with a couple of errors
Pewter - Audrey's biggest flaw is rotation and the judges at Nats will likely be lax

Starr, Bradie and Ava are riskier bets due to their lower jump content and consistency issues.

 

[Karen-W]

If I was a betting man, I'd go with Isabeau, Lindsay, Amber and Audrey.

Gold - Isabeau because... duh.
Silver - Lindsay has a very high base value and other than (sometimes severe) competition nerves, is well-rounded and seen as "the future."
Bronze - Amber also has a high base value and tends to score well at Nats even with a couple of errors
Pewter - Audrey's biggest flaw is rotation and the judges at Nats will likely be lax

Starr, Bradie and Ava are riskier bets due to their lower jump content and consistency issues.

Amber has consistency issues that make me question how she will skate when she had a realistic shot at the Worlds team.

Starr is working on adding back the Lutz to her repertoire per her IG stories. Judges at Nats tend to only overlook rotation issues when it's their chosen ones and I'd be a surprised if Audrey's were overlooked, especially in favor of Starr, who is most definitely one of the USFS' chosen ones. Starr gets more mainstream media coverage than any other skater who will be at Nationals except maybe Jason and Chock/Bates.

 

[toddlj]

Amber has consistency issues that make me question how she will skate when she had a realistic shot at the Worlds team.

Starr is working on adding back the Lutz to her repertoire per her IG stories. Judges at Nats tend to only overlook rotation issues when it's their chosen ones and I'd be a surprised if Audrey's were overlooked, especially in favor of Starr, who is most definitely one of the USFS' chosen ones. Starr gets more mainstream media coverage than any other skater who will be at Nationals except maybe Jason and Chock/Bates.

I can see an argument in favor of Starr, sure. As for Amber, yes, she has consistency issues.. but so do all of the other on the list (except perhaps Isabeau) and someone has to medal.

 

[skatingguy]

Starr gets more mainstream media coverage than any other skater who will be at Nationals except maybe Jason and Chock/Bates.

It is shocking who you left out of this list.

 

[Karen-W]

It is shocking who you left out of this list.

LMAO! You know I adore Ilia and think he's going to be one of NBC's poster children for Milano-Cortina, and he's certainly gaining attention and traction outside of the figure skating fandom, but I don't think he's there yet. Give it another year and we'll see what kind of attention he's getting from the mainstream media.

 

[AYS]

Even my mother in law knows about Ilia. She clipped some newspaper article about him for me after Skate America.

The American teenage figure skating phenomenon making history | CNN

American teenager Ilia Malinin landed the second ever quadruple axel in competition on Saturday without so much as a wobble.

www.cnn.com

2022 TIME100 Next: Ilia Malinin

Find out why Ilia Malinin is on this year’s TIME100 Next list

time.com

I think he’s there.

 

[skatfan]

LMAO! You know I adore Ilia and think he's going to be one of NBC's poster children for Milano-Cortina, and he's certainly gaining attention and traction outside of the figure skating fandom, but I don't think he's there yet. Give it another year and we'll see what kind of attention he's getting from the mainstream media.

I think you’ve completely underestimated Ilia’s reach into both mainstream and social media.

 

[mtnskater]

Agree, but even though her landings are called clean she often does over rotate the take-offs- and let me just state for the record I have always rolled my eyes in the past at people complaining about top skaters pre-rotating on their take-offs because it's usually not much of an issue. Depending on technique all skaters pre-rotate on the toepick from 1/4 to almost 1/2 turn, in order for jumps to rotate at all this needs to happen. This is a whole other level though. To be clear, more often than not her foot only rotates to forward on jumps, which I don't think needs to be downgraded. But when it rotates more than that it should be. I don't mean to pick on her, it's because I find this so frustrating it's not being addressed in training or the marks given her other fantastic qualities.

Agreed that some pre-rotation is normal and acceptable jump technique. However, Shoma Uno is a major pre-rotater…and very rarely is it mentioned…and he is heavily praised for all the other positive aspects of his skating, which I wholeheartedly agree. He has been one of my favorites for a long time in terms of total package. But his jumps REALLY prerotate and he frequently has very wonky landings. At least Isabeau has lovely air position and beautiful solid landings and beautiful positions. And rarely falls. In fact I think the flip fall was an effort not to get an edge call. She clearly has gorgeous basics and artistry at 15. Grassl is not attractive in the air or on his landings. But these are men. For some reason female skaters from the U.S. are nitpicked to death. I saw it with Alysa Liu too. Made me sad. Some criticism is fine but it seems disproportionate as Louis rightly points out issues so many women ( and men) have jumpwise. It may be in part why I defended Alysa and defend Isabeau a lot on the Boards because I feel like they get extra harsh treatment. Someone posted something on FSU in the past to the effect that no fans are harder on their female skaters than U.S. fans.

Isabeau’s coach has done a lot of things very right with her. She has always been very very tiny and is finally growing and my thought is she may get more power as she grows and be able to adjust her technique accordingly. But it doesn’t happen overnight, especially while growing. Working with Malinina/Skornikov might be a good idea. Or Jeremy Abbott…he really helped Alysa improve in the short time they worked together. She achieved a world bronze medal and good Olympic placement at 16. She got much more power after her growth. Had she stuck with it who knows what she might have achieved. I have no doubt Isabeau wants that high GOE on the jumps and knows what she needs to work on.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Strangely enough my top three are now what they were in September. After September it deviated greatly from this and I’ve circled back to my original three

Isabeau, Amber, Lindsay

spoiler – Bradie

 

[Wyliefan]

Grassl is not attractive in the air or on his landings. But these are men. For some reason female skaters from the U.S. are nitpicked to death.

If you think Grassl's technique never gets criticized on this board, do a search on his name. You're in for a big surprise.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Grassl is not attractive in the air or on his landings. But these are men. For some reason female skaters from the U.S. are nitpicked to death. I saw it with Alysa Liu too. Made me sad. Some criticism is fine but it seems disproportionate as Louis rightly points out issues so many women ( and men) have jumpwise. It may be in part why I defended Alysa and defend Isabeau a lot on the Boards because I feel like they get extra harsh treatment. Someone posted something on FSU in the past to the effect that no fans are harder on their female skaters than U.S. fans.

I don't nitpick female skaters to death, I haven't in the past and I'm not currently nitpicking Isabeau to death either. Iirc I've made only two comments this season in regards to the technical issues with her jumping. In fact, I've complimented her obvious increase in speed from last year. I don't think that's "disproportionate criticism." I find her technique extremely jarring (and bordering on dangerous, to be frank, just like Grassi's) particularly because the rest of her skating flows and she hits some beautiful positions.

 

[Rukia]

If you think Grassl's technique never gets criticized on this board, do a search on his name. You're in for a big surprise.

Also Shoma's pre-rotation definitely gets called out but probably not as much as it should

 

[mtnskater]

Wow, @Wyliefan did I say Grassl’s technique is never criticized? I think you know I’ve been on the boards for many years. My point was Isabeau receives disproportionate criticism because she does have excellent air position and beautiful landings on her jumps, which Grassl does not have.

And @bladesofgorey I did not intend to say you were nitpicking female skaters to death. Sorry if it came across as singling you out. I mainly quoted you because I agree with you about pre-rotation being necessary technique to a certain extent.

 

[Frau Muller]

Strangely enough my top three are now what they were in September. After September it deviated greatly from this and I’ve circled back to my original three

Isabeau, Amber, Lindsay

spoiler – Bradie

Looks good for top three.

I’d include Starr, Gabi and Ava as main spoilers, above Bradie.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Starr, Bradie and Ava are riskier bets due to their lower jump content and consistency issues.

Ava’s base value isn’t bad with two lutzes (both in the second half) and two flips, all of which usually avoid edge calls (occasional warnings). She has room to add a 3T somewhere and has done 3Lz3T in the short. She has seemed nervy since her surprise win earlier in the year, though.

 

[euterpe]

What is outstanding about Isabeau is that she truly enjoys performing.