U.S. Pairs 2018-19 season - News & Updates, Part IX

Jammers

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6,509
Lets be honest do we think any other US Pairs team would have finished in the top 10 and gotten the 2nd spot back? K/O haven't exactly set the world on fire and the Knierim's have been trending down for the last couple of seasons and are headcases at times with the jumps and just all around nervousness when they skate. D/F and S/B couldn't even get out of the SP and qualify for the LP leaving the Knierim's to have to fight to keeps spots. C/L may never win a world medal but they clearly were on the upswing and got it done when it counted.
 

Yazmeen

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5,133
What @Jammers said!!! Really, folks, while not perfect, they skated great and did what needed to be done. Very proud of Ashley and Tim!!!!
 

VGThuy

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29,935
Lets be honest do we think any other US Pairs team would have finished in the top 10 and gotten the 2nd spot back? K/O haven't exactly set the world on fire and the Knierim's have been trending down for the last couple of seasons and are headcases at times with the jumps and just all around nervousness when they skate. D/F and S/B couldn't even get out of the SP and qualify for the LP leaving the Knierim's to have to fight to keeps spots. C/L may never win a world medal but they clearly were on the upswing and got it done when it counted.
I think K/O could have if they had a skate similar to their GP France silver medal winning performance. However, that takes nothing away from C/L.
 

mattiecat13

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335
Well did anyone notice who the Technical Specialist was on the panel? Troy Goldstein who is American. Ashley’s jump was not called for underotation and it was clearly underrotated and the lifts and twist levels are questionable. But good for them to earn the two spots back! However, the field was depleted and they would have had to had a train wreck not to get top 10. But they were gifted in technical marks 😜
If anyone was gifted it was KMT/M.
 

Cleo1782

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1,300
Lets be honest do we think any other US Pairs team would have finished in the top 10 and gotten the 2nd spot back? K/O haven't exactly set the world on fire and the Knierim's have been trending down for the last couple of seasons and are headcases at times with the jumps and just all around nervousness when they skate. D/F and S/B couldn't even get out of the SP and qualify for the LP leaving the Knierim's to have to fight to keeps spots. C/L may never win a world medal but they clearly were on the upswing and got it done when it counted.
I think K/O would have been top 10. S/B would have been near the top 13 with their sp score last year but perhaps would have been higher due to the fact that the scoring was overall higher. S/B's national free would have easily been top 10. I think the Knierims would have been close to top 10 as well. No shade to C/L. It was a great job!! They should be proud.
 

5Ali3

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484
And a level 4 twist that clearly isn't level 4
The twist is not level 4
:confused:

Steps, man's arms, and catch are clearly achieved. The split is "gray" from the angle shown on TV, but viewed in slow motion, I see at least 45 degrees from the body axis on both legs; the split would have been more easily seen from the tech panel camera. For those saying the L4 was a gift from American Technical Specialist, the split is identified by the Technical Controller, not the TS.

It's a L4 twist. I am happy to debate that with anyone who is a certified pair TS or pair TC. I am happy to educate anyone about the pair features if there are still questions about why the twist was called L4.

(I am not willing to discuss jump rotation. Life is too short to debate underrotation on the internet!)
 

Cleo1782

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1,300
:confused:

Steps, man's arms, and catch are clearly achieved. The split is "gray" from the angle shown on TV, but viewed in slow motion, I see at least 45 degrees from the body axis on both legs; the split would have been more easily seen from the tech panel camera. For those saying the L4 was a gift from American Technical Specialist, the split is identified by the Technical Controller, not the TS.

It's a L4 twist. I am happy to debate that with anyone who is a certified pair TS or pair TC. I am happy to educate anyone about the pair features if there are still questions about why the twist was called L4.

(I am not willing to discuss jump rotation. Life is too short to debate underrotation on the internet!)
So the twist debate is worth your time but the Ur's aren't? Please DM privately about all your thoughts on why its a level 4. Please educate me.. you definitely reached level 4 in being superior.
 

Karen-W

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3,604
So the twist debate is worth your time but the Ur's aren't? Please DM privately about all your thoughts on why its a level 4. Please educate me..
I'd love for the Level 4 discussion to be here in the thread. I want to learn as much as possible and think this is a fascinating topic.
 

Cleo1782

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1,300
I'd love for the Level 4 discussion to be here in the thread. I want to learn as much as possible and think this is a fascinating topic.

Personally, I don't think the catch was that clear or clean, nor was her split but it literally would not have matter for placement. I think level 3 is fair. I wouldn't debate a level 2 either. I just don't think this is the place for silly arguments
 

5Ali3

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484
I'd love for the Level 4 discussion to be here in the thread. I want to learn as much as possible and think this is a fascinating topic.
Ask sincerely and ye shall receive more info about twists than you probably wanted to know. :D

Random tech panel info about twists: Twists can be downgraded if they are ½ rev or more short, but twists can’t be called underrotated. Why? Two reasons: The call of the rotation of a twist stops when the majority of the lady’s weight is supported by the man (or the ice :shuffle:) on the catch/landing, not when the man’s hands touch the lady and at what moment does he support the “majority” of her weight (which would take forever to review), and twists are executed on the diagonal and did the man step 180 degrees exactly and how does that count towards rotation, and her right shoulder and her left shoulder are often pointing in different directions, and…

In pairs, the fundamental focus is always the safety of the skaters and a number of rules reflect that. A slightly overrotated twist is very dangerous (the man is likely to get an elbow to the face; triple twists are the primary cause of concussions among elite skaters, and the position of the two skaters makes it less likely that the man can effectively grab the lady). It is significantly safer to have the lady slightly short of rotation because it’s much easier for the man to get his hands around her.

The pair community has a shared interested in keeping skaters alive without life-changing injury.


There are five features for a twist.

1) Lady’s split: at least 45 degrees from the body axis with both legs straight or almost straight. This feature is usually assigned to the TC to watch. The split can be achieved at any time between the lady’s pick and the man releasing the lady.

It’s common that one leg splits far more than 45 degrees from the body axis and the natural inclination is to follow that leg. If you are training yourself to look for the split in real time, one of the keys is to retrain yourself to follow the other leg. The viewing angle can make a big difference here.

2) Catch: the lady must be caught with the man’s hands at the side of her waist (it’s common one of the man’s arms will be wrapped around her back or his hands will be in her armpits) without any part of her upper body touching the man.

The catch must stop the momentum of the lady’s descent: it's uncommon to see a top triple twists at the World level where the man has his hands on the lady's waist with no other contact and he doesn't decrease her momentum, but it’s common on singles and developmental doubles. The easiest place to see this is Intermediate teams doing singles: on some of them, the lady will be an arm’s length from the man and the only contact is his hands on her waist (his hands may or may not have left her waist: sometimes they turn a single over without ever letting go!), but she’s so far away from him that he can’t stop her momentum at all.

A full collapse is easy to see. The hardest thing to catch in real time from the position of the tech panel is the lady’s right arm hitting the man’s left shoulder (teams position their twist so this is blocked from the tech panel).

3) Lady’s arms: at least one full rev in the air, one or both arms over the lady’s head.

Pop quiz: can this feature be awarded on a single twist?

4) Difficult take-off, which is still referred to as “steps” because that was the feature for many years.

The movements must be executed by both partners. The key is that there must be a consistent rhythm to the movements with no loss or break in cadence. A dance lift, which is called a “small lift” in pairs, is allowed, but there must be steps immediately before the small lift with no loss of cadence.

5) Man’s arms: his arms must reach his shoulders while being “straight or nearly straight” as they descend. They do not need to be straight on the way back up and it’s common to see the man’s arms make a scooping motion: down straight, then bend the elbows and the hands come towards his chest on the way back up. To achieve the feature, there must be some kind of catch: it doesn’t need to be a clean enough catch to be awarded feature 2, but the man’s hands need to reduce the lady’s momentum before she hits the ice. Again, this isn’t common when looking at World-level triple twists, but it’s common with singles and developmental doubles and triples. (Developmental doubles occasionally look like a throw double Lutz.) It can also be an issue when a twist goes really wrong and there’s more of a “grab” to keep her from hitting the ice than a “catch.” If you see this, you’ll know: it’s not subtle.



Pop quiz answer: No, because the lady only turns a half revolution in the air on a single twist and the feature for lady's arms requires the arms to be overhead for a full revolution in the air.
 

jiejie

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804
Thank you for this explanation! I'm loving learning more about pair-specific elements and how they are evaluated!
 

Spiralgraph

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Why does it feel like they've already skated this, even though I don't think they have?
This season isn't even over yet so I'm not positive this decision is set in stone. Too many skaters have changed their minds about what music they'll skate to. Let's see if K/O will still be skating to Les Mis in September.
 

happycamper2554

Active Member
Messages
143
This season isn't even over yet so I'm not positive this decision is set in stone. Too many skaters have changed their minds about what music they'll skate to. Let's see if K/O will still be skating to Les Mis in September.
They only scrap short programs. So this should be safe. ;)
 

VGThuy

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29,935
I thought their Swan Lake was eye-roll worthy when I heard it was their choice but it was a shockingly appropriate vehicle for them and their style. Maybe this will be the same thing here...though I rather listen to Swan Lake a million times over Les Miz.
 

clairecloutier

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Kayne/O'Shea have a way of making warhorses shine. I mean, this is a team that has successfully pulled off not just Swan Lake, but 2 different POTO programs. :lol:
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
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In a season of ice dance Broadway though...although I guess if they are Finnstepping they might avoid Les Miz. What can you Finnstep to in that? Master of the House maybe?
 

HeatherC

Proud fan of K&O and Team SW Florida! =)
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11,104
Kayne/O'Shea have a way of making warhorses shine. I mean, this is a team that has successfully pulled off not just Swan Lake, but 2 different POTO programs. :lol:
This is SO true and that takes some serious talent, LOL :lol:

I'm actually excited about this choice for them. Tarah & Danny tend to skate better when they're skating to something they really love and it sounds like this is music that they believe in for their long program. I can't remember all that many Les Miz programs from pairs teams (my most memorable one was Zhang & Bartholomay in 2014...someone give me other ones b-c I can't think of anymore off the top of my head) so this doesn't really feel like a warhorse to me. BTW-Fun fact for you guys: Pasquale Camerlengo is the one doing the choreography for this long program so I trust that he's gonna do a great job for them. :cheer:
 

Spun Silver

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This is SO true and that takes some serious talent, LOL :lol:

I'm actually excited about this choice for them. Tarah & Danny tend to skate better when they're skating to something they really love and it sounds like this is music that they believe in for their long program. I can't remember all that many Les Miz programs from pairs teams (my most memorable one was Zhang & Bartholomay in 2014...someone give me other ones b-c I can't think of anymore off the top of my head) so this doesn't really feel like a warhorse to me. BTW-Fun fact for you guys: Pasquale Camerlengo is the one doing the choreography for this long program so I trust that he's gonna do a great job for them. :cheer:
Les Miz was my all time fave Davis/White program so I say bring it on, especially if Camerlengo is doing the choreography!

Sorry, I have to take that back: for some reason I always confuse Hunchback of ND and Les Miz. (Both Victor Hugo.) Ok, so then it's entirely up to Camerlengo (and of course Tarah and Danny), but I have faith that he can bring new life to a warhorse.
 

VGThuy

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I didn't know Davis/White skated to Les Miz.

ETA: NVM, read the second half.
 

Spun Silver

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11,350
I didn't know Davis/White skated to Les Miz.

ETA: NVM, read the second half.
Yes, I am making a hash of things tonight and I'm sure will be throughout the weekend. Sorry.
Can you explain your avatar? It's cute but I'm mystified. Is that Jun Hwan?
 

VGThuy

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29,935
Yes, I am making a hash of things tonight and I'm sure will be throughout the weekend. Sorry.
Can you explain your avatar? It's cute but I'm mystified. Is that Jun Hwan?
Haha yeah. It's Vincent Zhou and Jun Hwan at 4CC exhibition. For some reason they were playing with each other's hair. I think Vincent started it.
 

aftershocks

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16,058
However, the field was depleted and they would have had to had a train wreck not to get top 10.
I think we should give Cain/LeDuc their due for getting the job done when a mix of bad luck, ISU idiocy, injury, ill-health and subpar performances cut two pairs spots to one in the first place. The U.S. has some very good pairs teams who will need the chance to compete in order to improve, and above all, in order to gain competitive exposure to ISU judges. This is hopefully just the first step in continuing to rebuild the U.S. pairs discipline. We are going to need three spots with the talent coming up, and the talent that had to sit at home this year.

IMHO, the international teams who could have posed a threat to C/L at Worlds were not at their best, while C/L have presented themselves very well throughout the season, with just a few hiccoughs. And so C/L have gained a bit of rep with the judges. Plus the unfairness in the rules which helped allow the U.S. to lose a second spot has now been rectified.

Plenty of times, officials turn a blind eye to URs, and sometimes they call URs on jumps that are too close to call. So Ashley getting some leniency in the fp on that second jump in the 3-jump combo is fair enough. The fact is, compared to the other second-tier teams, C/L have striking lines, good program music, concept and choreo, as well as above-average performance abilities. With all that they've overcome, C/L have earned this placement fair and square. No one else really threatened them here like a few teams could have. It's good to see luck working in U.S. pairs favor for a change, to combine with the diligence, determination and hard work of C/L and their entire team!

They were so happy to get those 2 spots back for the USA and I was super happy for them.
Me too! I hope they have a chance to recoup and start working on new programs in advance of Ashley's wedding. They were able to get a head start on the new season last year. But this year, their scheduling is going to be busy, especially if they go to World Team Trophy.

The experience and confidence C/L gained this season is so important. But the next order of business is coming out strong next season in order to ensure they are one of the two teams who get to attend Worlds next year so they can continue their momentum.
 
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Lacey

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To me, it was tremendously good sportsmanship on the part of Cain/LeDuc to seemingly be as excited for having gained the two spots for the US Pairs as they were for themselves skating so well at Worlds. Great feelings for good people.
 

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