U.S. Pairs 2017 - News & Updates, Part VII

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jkl said:
After watching the Pairs compete at Skate Detroit (I was there). I can truthfully say that I believe Sarah Feng and TJ Nyman have "it". They were very strong technically but it is their magical movement across the ice that is most memorable. Their artistry is so strong. What is so remarkable is the fact that TJ has only been doing Pairs for 3 months. They are JGP eligible.
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I could not agree with you more. I was there too and thoroughly enjoyed watching them. Yes, they are JGP eligible and if I were on the selection committee I would be sending them out twice. There was a lot of buzz at the competition about criteria to be given assignments. Based on combined scores Misha/Audrey are only team to successfully meet requirements. TJ/Sarah and Keenan/Laiken just slightly missed the cut for 2, but should be sent out once. Jacob/Allie too were slightly under the mark, but that was with their extra lift in free skate. Personally I would invest in those junior teams.
 
@Jojo13, what's the deal with your negative fixation on Yao/Simon? So much angst about the mere possibility of this team receiving an international assignment. Sure, they have lots of room for growth, but it's July. They're a brand new team. They have time to gel and improve.

I enjoyed the Weinstein/Simon pairing, but they had an unfavorable height difference and were losing ground both domestically and internationally. It doesn't make sense to stay together if you've given it a good shot (a four-year partnership is a long time) and you're not improving.
 
her grace said:
@Jojo13, what's the deal with your negative fixation on Yao/Simon? So much angst about the mere possibility of this team receiving an international assignment. Sure, they have lots of room for growth, but it's July. They're a brand new team. They have time to gel and improve.

I enjoyed the Weinstein/Simon pairing, but they had an unfavorable height difference and were losing ground both domestically and internationally. It doesn't make sense to stay together if you've given it a good shot (a four-year partnership is a long time) and you're not improving.
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I do not have a fixation on Yao/Simon receiving an international assignment. I believe in USFSA investing in the future. Looking for real potential to build the Pairs program here. We have one spot at the Olympics and we should look at those teams that can potentially never let that happen again. Yao/Simon are not that team. There are junior teams that have more longevity and need international experience as well as exposure. Sending people who have already been international and are just making the cut is senseless. Jonah/Ellie didn't make criteria but should be given opportunity based on past history. Every year they have shown growth but just did not perform to their potential at Skate Detroit.

As for an unfavorable height difference, Yao is actually taller than Weinstein. They just have different body types. One is long and lean and the other was more solid with an athletic build. Yao has never projected on the ice. She just does not have the same ice presence. Being a new partnership is not going to change that characteristic. You either have "it" or you don't. She is a pretty skater. She has nice lines and flexibility. But that is it.
 
jkl said:
What is so remarkable is the fact that TJ has only been doing Pairs for 3 months.
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TJ actually skated pairs a few years ago. He and his partner at the time medaled (I think 2nd?) in Juv Pairs at 2014 Nats. Then he stopped pairs to focus on singles. He's had some injuries and struggled over the past 2 seasons. Glad to hear he and Sarah had a good pairs debut. Hopefully, they can get an assignment.
 
Debbie S said:
TJ actually skated pairs a few years ago. He and his partner at the time medaled (I think 2nd?) in Juv Pairs at 2014 Nats.
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2014 U.S. Juvenile bronze at with Sarah Rose when they were both based in Florida. :) TJ Nyman also won the U.S. Juvenile Boys title that year.

Here's the direct link to my blog post for Skate Detroit pairs results/segment scores so far (not yet all official or complete - still a work-in-progress) with links to the fan cam videos of the senior teams: https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/2017/07/21/2017-skate-detroit-pairs-friday-saturday/
 
jkl said:
After watching the Pairs compete at Skate Detroit (I was there). I can truthfully say that I believe Sarah Feng and TJ Nyman have "it".
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She has always had "it" for me. Won first place in the novice free dance at 2014 Nationals. I'm very glad she has a partner again, even if it is now in a different discipline.
 
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her grace said:
@Jojo13, what's the deal with your negative fixation on Yao/Simon? So much angst about the mere possibility of this team receiving an international assignment. Sure, they have lots of room for growth, but it's July. They're a brand new team. They have time to gel and improve.

I enjoyed the Weinstein/Simon pairing, but they had an unfavorable height difference and were losing ground both domestically and internationally. It doesn't make sense to stay together if you've given it a good shot (a four-year partnership is a long time) and you're not improving.
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I'm not sure I'm seeing much height difference between Weinstein/Simon vs Yao/Simon??? Can you deny that Weinstein/Simon possess loads more chemistry than Yao/Simon? Why downplay the fact that Allie Yao is not going to be competitive in seniors with double jumps that she has trouble executing? I'm not saying that Yao/Simon don't stand a chance to work through their issues. I'm just saying I personally do not see them as strong a match at this point as Yao/Hale. And that Weinstein/Simon had more chemistry, and I would like to know more about what the main factors were involved in the splits of both these teams? I don't think that's too much to ask.

So, I reiterate: What was the real issue involved in the Weinstein/Simon split? Lindsay matured with more womanly hips than she did with uber height. Was there an issue with lifts? Couldn't Jacob work more on developing upper body strength if that was the case? Go back and read my previous posts on this topic. I brought up Babilonia/Gardner for a reason. Tai matured with a womanly figure, and with height that nearly matched Randy's height. I understand those were different times in the sport. But, Tai & Randy had no less difficult obstacles to work out as they matured from pre-adolescents to adolescents to young adults. The difference is that Tai/Randy worked through their tough times and came out on the other end as World champions. These days seemingly everyone involved with U.S. pairs discipline gives in too easily and goes with the musical chairs pairings, which sets so many promising U.S. pairs skaters back individually and collectively.

You say that Weinstein/Simon were "given a shot," and were not improving. Why they weren't improving is the question. Was any time or effort given to figuring out why? Was Lindsay being given beefs about her weight and maturing body? That could have been extremely psychologically damaging. Was any attempt made to address why the team was not improving? Likely not. It's just so much easier to scout around apparently for another pairs girl.

And like I asked earlier, What was the reason for Allie splitting with Austin when they'd had promising success in Juniors at Nationals? They were much better matched IMHO, and if the USFS had the right kind of pairs program, Allie & Austin should have been scooped up and groomed to the nth degree, as well as Lindsay and Jacob being put through their paces to figure out the problem in their pairing and doing everything to overcome it. There's no way that Lindsay had grown too tall for Jacob. She did sprout more womanly hips. Figure skating is full of intrigue and politics at every level, and I'm willing to bet this situation is no different.
 
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Jojo13 said:
... Yao has never projected on the ice. She just does not have the same ice presence. Being a new partnership is not going to change that characteristic. You either have "it" or you don't. She is a pretty skater. She has nice lines and flexibility. But that is it.
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I agree with your post, except that with the right kind of help, I believe Allie Yao is young enough to improve her weaknesses. I would just have preferred seeing her improve with Austin Hale because I think they were better matched and they already had a modestly successful track record together.

The claim that Lindsay Weinstein had grown too tall for Jacob Simon is indeed an ill-founded claim.
 
aftershocks said:
I'm not sure I'm seeing much height difference between Weinstein/Simon vs Yao/Simon??? Can you deny that Weinstein/Simon possess loads more chemistry than Yao/Simon? Why downplay the fact that Allie Yao is not going to be competitive in seniors with double jumps that she has trouble executing? I'm not saying that Yao/Simon don't stand a chance to work through their issues. I'm just saying I personally do not see them as strong a match at this point as Yao/Hale. And that Weinstein/Simon had more chemistry, and I would like to know more about what the main factors were involved in the splits of both these teams? I don't think that's too much to ask.

So, I reiterate: What was the real issue involved in the Weinstein/Simon split? Lindsay matured with more womanly hips than she did with uber height. Was there an issue with lifts? Couldn't Jacob work more on developing upper body strength if that was the case? Go back and read my previous posts on this topic. I brought up Babilonia/Gardner for a reason. Tai matured with a womanly figure, and with height that nearly matched Randy's height. I understand those were different times in the sport. But, Tai & Randy had no less difficult obstacles to work out as they matured from pre-adolescents to adolescents to young adults. The difference is that Tai/Randy worked through their tough times and came out on the other end as World champions. These days seemingly everyone involved with U.S. pairs discipline gives in too easily and goes with the musical chairs pairings, which sets so many promising U.S. pairs skaters back individually and collectively.

You say that Weinstein/Simon were "given a shot," and were not improving. Why they weren't improving is the question. Was any time or effort given to figuring out why? Was Lindsay being given beefs about her weight and maturing body? That could have been extremely psychologically damaging. Was any attempt made to address why the team was not improving? Likely not. It's just so much easier to scout around apparently for another pairs girl.

And like I asked earlier, What was the reason for Allie splitting with Austin when they'd had back-to-back success in Juniors at Nationals? They were much better matched IMHO, and if the USFS had the right kind of pairs program, Allie & Austin should have been scooped up and groomed to the nth degree, as well as Lindsay and Jacob being put through their paces to figure out the problem in their pairing and doing everything to overcome it. There's no way that Lindsay had grown too tall for Jacob. She did sprout more womanly hips. Figure skating is full of intrigue and politics at every level, and I'm willing to bet this situation is no different.
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Allie and Austin were only together one season. The year prior he was partnered with Meiryla Findley. Austin has had a new partner every single year he has competed. Unsure why he could not keep a partner. He was a very talented pair skater and had success with every partner he had.

It is sad to think that USFSA, coaches and a partner would give up on a young talent like Lindsay because she matured. But it certainly looks like that is exactly what happened. Do we know where she is or what she is doing since the split? Is she still skating?
 
Jojo13 said:
Allie and Austin were only together one season. The year prior he was partnered with Meiryla Findley. Austin has had a new partner every single year he has competed. Unsure why he could not keep a partner. He was a very talented pair skater and had success with every partner he had.
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Thanks for the correction. I remember now, and I recall everyone wondering why the Findley/Hale split. But then splits among young U.S. pairs teams are so ubiquitous and unfortunately commonplace. Too bad major international success for junior and senior U.S. pairs isn't as commonplace.

Sigh, and again, why this particular pairs split? :confused: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_uKzoKiBKg Findley/Hale

Is Austin still looking for a partner? If he doesn't find another suitable partner soon, what a waste of talent! But wait, if no one is willing to stick with him in the U.S., maybe Austin should try seeking out a South Korean or Japanese pairs partner (if he's willing to go in that citizenship complicated direction).
 
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aftershocks said:
However, since only one U.S. pair team can make the Olympics, it will likely be the Scinierims, unless they are completely awful at Nationals, which I doubt will happen. The biggest question will be whether Chris can manage to rotate and consistently land his sbs jumps. I also wonder if Alexa/Chris will try for throw quad twist, or simply work more on fine-tuning, polishing and being consistent.
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But you're forgetting, Nationals doesn't count anymore - or at least, it's not the sole factor. Or it's not supposed to be the sole factor. Or at least, USFSA tries to tell us this when it comes to the ladie$. So maybe pairs GP season won't matter. They didn't use Body of Work to pick the spots for 2014 pairs. It will be interesting to see if the selection justification will be consistent (fair) this time across all disciplines.

Looking at the GP assignments, Scinerim and D/F are the only teams awarded two slots, S/B have gotten none, and there's only one TBD slot available. So it looks like no other team will be allowed to build a body of work but Scinerim and D/F. D/F have been annointed the fallback team should Scinerim not deliver.
 
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If Sarah and TJ get a JGP, will they get a bye through sectionals? Does any junior pair get a bye through sectionals?
 
The 3 Sectionals are November 15-19, 2017. The JGP ends in mid-October. Only junior pairs that qualify for the JGP Final would get a bye through Sectionals. Liu/Johnson (3rd & 5th on JGP last fall) received a bye last year because they were assigned to a Challenger senior international (Warsaw Cup) that conflicted with Sectionals.
 
So the only pairs from last years Junior Worlds top 10 that aged out, I believe, are the Americans. Top 3 US summer junior scores so far are Lu/Mitrofanov 149, Lochley/Prochnow 138, and Feng/Nyman 135. Top 5 at junior worlds scored between 150-163. Next 4 who were not American scored 145, 138, 135, and 128. I know scores are not exactly comparable from Skate Detroit vs. Junior Worlds. But as of right now, I could see possibly maybe 1 US team making the final but by no means a guarantee.
 
haribobo said:
So the only pairs from last years Junior Worlds top 10 that aged out, I believe, are the Americans. Top 3 US summer junior scores so far are Lu/Mitrofanov 149, Lochley/Prochnow 138, and Feng/Nyman 135. Top 5 at junior worlds scored between 150-163. Next 4 who were not American scored 145, 138, 135, and 128. I know scores are not exactly comparable from Skate Detroit vs. Junior Worlds. But as of right now, I could see possibly maybe 1 US team making the final but by no means a guarantee.
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Making the JGPF is typically tougher than doing well at junior worlds, because the Russians can only send 3 teams to junior worlds.
 
Reposting from Canadian pairs thread re Bruno Marcotte's recent IceTalk interview:

kwanfan1818 said:
In the latest IceTalk podcast (36), Bruno Marcotte discusses training D/R and their decision for changing this season:
http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk
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I listened to that the other day. A delightful listen. I was wondering to what Bruno is referencing re ISU's consideration for 'shortening programs.' I must have missed some rules change discussion.

Is the ISU attempting to cut down the length of events by shortening fps in all disciplines, or in just the pairs discipline? Like Bruno, I hope they do not take out either of the lifts or the jumping passes. For all I care, they can get rid of pairs spiral sequence and alternate pairs combo spin with sbs spins from season-to-season. I also completely agree with Bruno that there needs to be an effort made to encourage more individual pair team creativity and innovation. It is boring when everyone starts adopting the same unique moves. For example, please don't everyone rush to copy the unique moves J/C and S/M incorporated into their very popular and successful programs last season!

Although Deanna/Nate's new lifts are not completely new, they look good on them, particularly in the way the lift changes of position are utilized and put together (choreo by Mark Pillay).
 
leafygreens said:
But you're forgetting, Nationals doesn't count anymore - or at least, it's not the sole factor. Or it's not supposed to be the sole factor. Or at least, USFSA tries to tell us this when it comes to the ladie$. So maybe pairs GP season won't matter. They didn't use Body of Work to pick the spots for 2014 pairs. It will be interesting to see if the selection justification will be consistent (fair) this time across all disciplines.

Looking at the GP assignments, Scinerim and D/F are the only teams awarded two slots, S/B have gotten none, and there's only one TBD slot available. So it looks like no other team will be allowed to build a body of work but Scinerim and D/F. D/F have been annointed the fallback team should Scinerim not deliver.
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I doubt that D/F will necessarily be seen as favorites to make the Olympics unless they are extremely successful with the spots they've been given on the GP, which were awarded because they are defending U.S. National champions with a decent body of work from last season, aside from Worlds. The problem for them last season though was Haven coming back from that terrible knee injury, and she was no way 100%. Things have been quiet this off-season from D/F, not surprisingly. Let's see how they have been able to regroup, and whether or not Haven will be able to complete her jumps with better mastery and consistency. They certainly toughed it out last season bravely (and Brandon showed progress aesthetically), but their win at Nationals was partially gifted out of respect for their relatively veteran status and past success before Haven's injury. And because no one else really stepped up and blew one out of the ballpark. Marissa/Mervin should have/could have, but didn't. M&M have vowed to wow this year, and I'm hopeful they will. Good luck to D/F and all the teams in what looks to be a very tight, tough season.

Meanwhile, that was interesting news @Sylvia posted earlier about Cain/LeDuc spending time in Italy working with Nina Mozer's group. :D https://www.instagram.com/p/BW3Q4EMnG0W/?taken-by=icegirlash&hl=en
Ash: "... Timothy and I are currently in Italy working with the incredible Nina Mozer and her team getting ready for this season!" Congrats & Happy B'day to Ashley!

I also love this photo and gracious sentiment from Ashley C:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BWgYPU4HpNp/?taken-by=icegirlash&hl=en
(Timothy & Ash with one of their choreographers, Serge Onik)

It will just be nice to see all the U.S. teams making strides in reaching their personal goals and pushing each other to improve.
 
AKA said:
I see, so would any of the current junior pairs have a chance of the final?
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It all depends if a team is one of the top 6 teams to earn points based on their finish at the JGP. They would also have to be sent to more than one event for that to even be a possibility. And at this point, the only teams based on assignment criteria to qualify for two assignments is Audrey and Misha/Laiken and Keenan. There are 8 total spots available. And there still is Marvaldi and her partner. They have not yet competed but if they meet the criteria it should be interesting to see what USFSA decides to do.
 
Mokhova / Mokhov (Int1) are having a great start with a FS of 71.42 at Detroit Summer Skate in NOVICE. That score would have put them in the first half of the Juniors! Can't wait to see their SP!
 
My (late) observations on Skate Detroit.

Calalang / Sidhu - Looking great albeit a little slow. I"m glad to see a better 3twist and clean SBS triples from them. I think this may be one of their highest scores ever (?). LP score would've been higher had she landed their money move cleanly: Throw 3Z.

Stellato / Bartholomay - Pure ambition. Great to see a U.S. team go for SBS 3Z. I think they should use 'One' by U2 and thus have the whole program to U2's music. It would be more fluid IMO.
 
clairecloutier said:
U.S. Champions Denney/Frazier: "We want to show everyone that we still have a lot to give"
http://figureskatersonline.com/news...ow-everyone-that-we-still-have-a-lot-to-give/

Haven/Brandon talk about the highs/lows of last season, the disappointment at Worlds, and their plans for the Olympic season.
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Great interview Claire!

Was sad to read about it, especially since they said they were skating the best they had that season when they got to Finland.

I would have thought the otherwise had I not read this.

Also, Im glad they are abandoning the SBS 2 axels this year. They sound like they will be contenders again.

and interesting mix on the free skate music. #NoWarhorseThere lol

In fact my only criteria these days is "well at least it aint no warhorse."
 
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What a great interview, @clairecloutier . They were so candid, it was hard to read sometimes because the pain is obviously still fresh. It was a fascinating look inside the training process, though.

The duo also took inspiration from seeing the free skate of Wenjing Sui and Cong Han live at Worlds in Helsinki. “There’s a reason why they’re the World champions,” said Frazier. “Their connection … It’s like: ‘What discipline are you? Are you ice dance, or pairs?’ The way they skate in between the elements—the way they look at each other. So, it’s taking things from that, and trying to incorporate it.”
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This quote warmed my Sui/Han uber heart. How Chinese pairs have evolved!
 
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