U.S. Ladies [#28]: Achieving 2020 Vision

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AngieNikodinovLove said:
?

Bradie Doesn’t seem like a “no” girl, she seems like a “yes” girl. Even going to that far far away B event when she made the GP final.
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Case in point. That B event turned out awful for her. A blemish on her otherwise stellar fall. She could’ve saved herself the trouble and come out more confident and relaxed for nationals, maybe.
 
Skibean said:
I haven’t really been posting long- no. I’ll be checking this board for Kwan references now though ???. But I was referring to NBC. No Kwan mentions. I was baffled!! She wasn’t even on the USFSA commercial. She’s the best skater the US had produced, yet they ignore her. I wonder what happened there?
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I’m sure it has nothing to do with any of the on air hosts...?
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
She for sure had a Kwan moment and it’s been a while since we’ve had a Kwan moment. Even with that. Alysa still should be miles ahead. First woman to ever do 2 triple axels, One of those triple axels in combination, first woman to ever do a quad jump, first woman to ever do a quad lutz jump, we need to be realistic even though her artistry is not on par her technical side is universes ahead!

Mariah was rewarded for her moment! 150+ And deservedly so.

This exact same result would have replicated if Alysa could go to a senior event with an international panel. The judges would not have been like well Mariah did do a Kwan moment…
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Well, in all fairness, I felt that Mariah’s overall skate was better. She captured the moment. Sometimes skating isn’t just about going from one jump to the other. I realize she’s young and working on her overall skating. I know she’s a sweet unassuming girl. I also know this is what skating is about now and what judges are rewarding: jumps. It’s no fault of Alysa. She’s growing up and working the system in her favor. I just felt Mariah had the winning skate.
 
I don't know.. I don't think they are purposefully not mentioning her.. maybe it just doesn't ever occur to them to mention her.. or maybe I am just naive haha
Honestly... it really doesn't bother me at all that they don't talk about her :shuffle::lynch:
 
feraina said:
Case in point. That B event turned out awful for her. A blemish on her otherwise stellar fall. She could’ve saved herself the trouble and come out more confident and relaxed for nationals, maybe.
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She can’t control the condition of the ice. The surface of the ice was awful. She set that jump sequence up right over the puddle. And yes down she went right on the set up.

Many kudos to her for trying to re-attempt it. I would’ve looked down at the ice and been like gurl bye. Lol

I quite admire her for not just wanting to do nationals and worlds and Olympics.

And before any chance to relax for nationals she still had a final to go to which I believe she found out while she was there
 
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Admirable, yes, in some sense. But is it wise? Having bad ice at a minor event is a common risk. It could’ve cost her more than a bad skate. Like an injury. If she was trying out a new jump layout in a low pressure setting then I get it. But just to do another low level event overseas for the heck of it, after a stellar GP season, no I don’t really get it. Plus her making GPF was always a possibility.
 
I get Bradie wanting to do 4CC for a chance to improve on her skate at Nationals, but I also worry about her tiring herself out. Hopefully she has enough time to come down and back up in time for Worlds.

vesperholly said:
We are getting into figures territory again with this "experts have determined it's harder so it deserves to win". I can appreciate that her programs are more complicated and harder. I still don't like watching them.
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I mean, I'm no expert, but I totally buy that a 4Lz and two 3As is harder than...not having those elements. Alysa may not be blowing the roof off yet with her artistry, but she's improving by leaps and bounds.
 
feraina said:
Hey at least people complaining about Liu winning are so consistent — they also complain about the 3A’s (especially Trusova) stratospheric TES and inflated PCS over more mature skaters like Medvedeva.

The same can’t be said about those who defend the 3A’s and keep on saying it’s a sport — I don’t see them coming to Liu’s defense anywhere. Quite to the contrary, in fact.
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I don't follow who is critiquing who, but as a not particularly vocal 3A fan, I can say that the most vocal 3A supporter on this board (as far as I can see) is also a strong supporter of Liu as can be evidenced in posts on this thread.
 
feraina said:
Admirable, yes, in some sense. But is it wise? Having bad ice at a minor event is a common risk. It could’ve cost her more than a bad skate. Like an injury. If she was trying out a new jump layout in a low pressure setting then I get it. But just to do another low level event overseas for the heck of it, after a stellar GP season, no I don’t really get it. Plus her making GPF was always a possibility.
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Her making the GPF was a long shot based on a very specific outcome of results at IdF, Rostelecom, and NHK. She missed the early fall Challengers because of her injury and wanted to add some points to her WS, which is only right and sensible, so she entered Warsaw Cup. She didn't even find out she made the GPF until the week after Warsaw Cup. So, no, it really wasn't a risk for her to do it and she had 3 weeks between Warsaw Cup and the GPF.
 
Angela-Fan said:
I don't know.. I don't think they are purposefully not mentioning her.. maybe it just doesn't ever occur to them to mention her.. or maybe I am just naive haha
Honestly... it really doesn't bother me at all that they don't talk about her :shuffle::lynch:
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well Star was skating to Salome and had MK’s exact ending musical cuts...I’m sure Tara was familiar lol

I just can’t hear Simone...especially the ending... and not think of Michelle. Plus Starr’s consume was reminiscent etc...
 
SkateFanBerlin said:
Glad that Mariah is more consistent. Great season. Still think Bradie is the better skater. As stated by others, her programs are more complex with more BV in the elements. I'm rooting for both but wish Bradie to be 4CC champ. After a disappointment Bradie comes out with guns blazing.

Alysa is improving but PCS is the 8's is usual tech inflation. With this tech content no American lady an touch her.

Still think Gracie's 2016 FS is the greatest skate by an American lady. The program was so complex and Nicols' choreo great. Contrast with Mariah's you can see how much farther Mariah could go now that her jumps are so solid.
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Well, if they both did the jump layouts they tried at Nats without errors (no <, and Bradie gets the 2Lo she missed for the 3 jump combo), the difference is just over 1 point. Certainly nothing decisive, so I think that this is somewhat overstated. I do agree that Bradie has more transitions.
 
UGG said:
well Star was skating to Salome and had MK’s exact ending musical cuts...I’m sure Tara was familiar lol

I just can’t hear Simone...especially the ending... and not think of Michelle. Plus Starr’s consume was reminiscent etc...
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Exactly this! The costume, the musical cuts- and not one mention of Kwan. Just bizarre to me.
 
Let me just say that I love Mariah Bell and have always rooted for her since she was a junior. But it occurred to me that had Mariah skated like Jason in the FS, she could have been the champion. I don't mean by adding 2 3A's and a quad attempt; I mean having better jump landings. Both programs had incredible emotional impact, but almost every single one of Mariah's jumps had some small landing issue that prevented her from having higher GOE. 3F-3T: this was the best one landing wise but it had little speed coming out. 3Lp: off-axis and she almost fell out. 3S: free foot down quickly with no speed. 2A: free foot down even earlier. 3F-2T-2Lp: stand still. 3Z-2t: no speed. 3Z: free foot down quickly and UR. Weirdly, I think a part of the emotional impact of her FS was that every jump looked so dicey and you really rooted for her to stay upright and it's a little jolt of joy every time she manages to fight for the landing. But without these jump landing bobbles, she could've gotten more GOE. If she could have gotten an additional 1.2 GOE on each jumping pass and not UR'ed the last 3Z, she could've made up for the 10-point differential with Alysa. Actually her PCS would probably go up too if she didn't lose speed with every jumping pass, so she would even have a bit of a cushion.

One would hope that the judging system is such that, if she can skate an emotionally magnificent program exactly like she did, but cleaned up all those jump landings, that she would get properly rewarded for it.

I hope the lesson Mariah takes away from all this is not that she can't compete with someone like Alysa, but that she can be very competitive if she keeps working hard on perfecting the jumps she has got.
 
feraina said:
If she could have gotten an additional 1.2 GOE on each jumping pass and not UR'ed the last 3Z, she could've made up for the 10-point differential with Alysa. Actually her PCS would probably go up too if she didn't lose speed with every jumping pass, so she would even have a bit of a cushion.
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1.2 points of extra GoE per pass is an absurd amount. In some cases, like the 2A or 3F+3T, it's mathematically impossible.

Nobody with her jump content has ever scored high enough to beat Alysa with the deficit from the SP. If she had been flawless in the SP, then she might have had a shot. But then, maybe she wouldn't have skated as well.
 
feraina said:
Let me just say that I love Mariah Bell and have always rooted for her since she was a junior. But it occurred to me that had Mariah skated like Jason in the FS, she could have been the champion. I don't mean by adding 2 3A's and a quad attempt; I mean having better jump landings. Both programs had incredible emotional impact, but almost every single one of Mariah's jumps had some small landing issue that prevented her from having higher GOE. 3F-3T: this was the best one landing wise but it had little speed coming out. 3Lp: off-axis and she almost fell out. 3S: free foot down quickly with no speed. 2A: free foot down even earlier. 3F-2T-2Lp: stand still. 3Z-2t: no speed. 3Z: free foot down quickly and UR. Weirdly, I think a part of the emotional impact of her FS was that every jump looked so dicey and you really rooted for her to stay upright and it's a little jolt of joy every time she manages to fight for the landing. But without these jump landing bobbles, she could've gotten more GOE. If she could have gotten an additional 1.2 GOE on each jumping pass and not UR'ed the last 3Z, she could've made up for the 10-point differential with Alysa. Actually her PCS would probably go up too if she didn't lose speed with every jumping pass, so she would even have a bit of a cushion.

One would hope that the judging system is such that, if she can skate an emotionally magnificent program exactly like she did, but cleaned up all those jump landings, that she would get properly rewarded for it.

I hope the lesson Mariah takes away from all this is not that she can't compete with someone like Alysa, but that she can be very competitive if she keeps working hard on perfecting the jumps she has got.
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I agree with you about the landings, though I don't think the extra GOE would have made the difference. I would feel more comfortable arguing for a Mariah win if the jumps were better landed, as it stands, I thought Mariah skated a gorgeous program that was very moving. However, I felt that Alysa skated the winning program and by that I mean, she skated a 'champion's' program, not just the crazy jumps but she skated with confidence and assurance right after someone else had just had the skate of her life and it was just really impressive to see, sort of like watching Michael Jordan nail a free throw with 2 seconds on the clock.
 
Wow, what a competition!

Alysa: I thought we saw a glimpse of nerves in the SP with her stumbling out of the 3A...then again I suppose that was just a law of averages. Amazing performance in the FS to capture her second consecutive gold medal. I see the improvements to her movement, especially her in-betweens. The jumps still lack the speed I'd like to see going in and coming out BUT the rotations were finished well above the ice IMO. No question on rotation for any of her non-trick jumps for me. She's a remarkable talent. I do feel like her performance and win were a bit anticlimactic after Mariah, but it was great to see her rise to the occasion and deliver.

Mariah: The SP was effing AMAZING before she had that slip. You could tell if that hadn't happened the crowd would have blown the roof off of the building at the end. Even with the mistakes it was a fabulous SP. And then the FS...that was SUCH a moment. I felt myself getting more and more nervous for her as I watched and when Tara said, "I'm on the edge of my seat..." as she went into that last jump, I was too. But man the rush of joy and energy that washed over that arena when she landed that final jump was unbelievable. I agree with Adam--it really was a Michelle Kwan-esque moment.

It was reminiscent 2004 nationals when Michelle skated her FS. The ROAR from the crowd when she landed that final jump and how they didn't stop cheering from that point... That's what Mariah managed to achieve. The last time I saw an audience that into a performance was when Ashley won silver at worlds in 2016. Mariah's performance was such a huge moment and SO SO SO MUCH of what I miss seeing in this sport. Beautiful, moving performances that make you actually feel something. I have already watched it like 5 times and I know I will be watching this one for years and years to come. Alysa won the national title, but Mariah won nationals. I watched all 4 disciplines and her FS was the moment of the entire event IMO.

Bradie: Amazing performance by Bradie in the SP. This program really is a perfect vehicle for her and to see her set the record with it was great. I don't know what it is with her in the FS but something was definitely off. That little stumble near the beginning of the program and then that fall. I felt sorry for her. When it comes to her nerves, she's usually good about maintaining them decently...but it's becoming a bit of thing for her when it comes to the FS at this event. Overall it was a great outing with just the one mistake. But with Mariah stealing the show and Alysa capturing the title, Bradie ended up being an afterthought here.

Karen: So great to see her fight her way through and deliver two respectable skates here. Karen makes my head hurt a lot of the time: she's so stunning to watch and has SO many great qualities but always manages to shoot herself in the foot. Luckily she avoided that for the most part here. Karen seems rather uncertain about what she wants to do moving forward when it comes to her skating. I guess we'll see if she decides to continue. She will definitely have to up her content if she hopes to nab a world/Oly spot. There was a large gap b/w 3rd and 4th. I guess we'll see what she decides to do...

Amber: I enjoyed her SP. She's such an emotional skater--almost to a fault. At times her programs get away from her because she's so wrapped up in her emotions. Amber managed to keep everything in check and still deliver a clean SP and that was great. Unfortunately, things came apart in the FS, as they tend to do. She was tight right from the start and just couldn't seem to settle herself down. Hopefully one day she'll figure it out. At least she has that great moment from the SP.

Starr: Excellent SP for her. The FS is still not my cuppa, though I did see the improvements to her performance and connection with the music. I still feel like she needs to go to a legitimate jump coach. Those toe jumps (other than the toe loop) are just not where they need to be at this point in her career. I'd love to see someone work with her and see if they can clean up that technique. Happy she made top 6 here.

Gracie: Overall, I was very happy with what Gracie did. She's made such strides in the last year and if she keeps working there's a good chance she can put up a fight for top 5 in another year. It took a lot of guts to come back. I'm sure she wanted to do better than she did here, but she established a foundation to build on moving forward. I hope she continues to keep working and stay positive. Loved seeing that moment at the end between her and the audience. She even said herself she'd never felt that kind of love from a crowd before. Very special moment for her as well.

Amazing competition! Very proud of Alysa and just over-the-moon in love with Mariah and the gift she gave us here.
 
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Jammers said:
Is Mariah not going because of the nonsense at Worlds last year with her and Eun Soo? Otherwise why miss out on possibly getting a ISU medal.
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It's possible the whole Eunsoo issue has something to do with it; however, more than that, I think it's about preserving her body. At the ripe old age of 23 she's up there in years so she has to pace herself. Strategy-wise it's a smart move as well. Yes, she could go and add another ISU medal to her name but she could also go and have a rough performance. Better to carry the high of skating so well at nationals into worlds rather than risk losing momentum by going to 4CC, especially when it's not necessary. Plus, it gives other skaters a chance to gain some ISU points.

It's a good move and a smart one. Better to rests up and prepare herself for worlds.

Skibean said:
I haven’t really been posting long- no. I’ll be checking this board for Kwan references now though ???. But I was referring to NBC. No Kwan mentions. I was baffled!! She wasn’t even on the USFSA commercial. She’s the best skater the US had produced, yet they ignore her. I wonder what happened there?
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Most think this is because of Tara being a commentator. Despite Tara's Olympic win, she isn't even a fraction as loved or as impactful as Michelle Kwan was/is. I think it's a conscious decision by the producers to keep Lipinski happy.
 
How many times has Kwan attended Nationals since 2005? I think she was there in 2014 to escort Claire Ferguson for her HOF presentation. Then she was honored in 2012??? in San Jose, I believe. Can't recall her having an active presence or even attending otherwise.

I highly doubt Tara has that much clout at NBC. So typical of Kwan fans to blame her, though lol.

Michelle has made it clear she wants to move on and expand her "brand" as the kids call it. That might be a factor as well.

Also, sadly, mentions of Kwan's achievements highlight the relative lack of success since her retirement. That's probably a factor, too.
 
feraina said:
Let me just say that I love Mariah Bell and have always rooted for her since she was a junior. But it occurred to me that had Mariah skated like Jason in the FS, she could have been the champion. I don't mean by adding 2 3A's and a quad attempt; I mean having better jump landings. Both programs had incredible emotional impact, but almost every single one of Mariah's jumps had some small landing issue that prevented her from having higher GOE. 3F-3T: this was the best one landing wise but it had little speed coming out. 3Lp: off-axis and she almost fell out. 3S: free foot down quickly with no speed. 2A: free foot down even earlier. 3F-2T-2Lp: stand still. 3Z-2t: no speed. 3Z: free foot down quickly and UR. Weirdly, I think a part of the emotional impact of her FS was that every jump looked so dicey and you really rooted for her to stay upright and it's a little jolt of joy every time she manages to fight for the landing. But without these jump landing bobbles, she could've gotten more GOE. If she could have gotten an additional 1.2 GOE on each jumping pass and not UR'ed the last 3Z, she could've made up for the 10-point differential with Alysa. Actually her PCS would probably go up too if she didn't lose speed with every jumping pass, so she would even have a bit of a cushion.

One would hope that the judging system is such that, if she can skate an emotionally magnificent program exactly like she did, but cleaned up all those jump landings, that she would get properly rewarded for it.

I hope the lesson Mariah takes away from all this is not that she can't compete with someone like Alysa, but that she can be very competitive if she keeps working hard on perfecting the jumps she has got.
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Higher PCS
feraina said:
Let me just say that I love Mariah Bell and have always rooted for her since she was a junior. But it occurred to me that had Mariah skated like Jason in the FS, she could have been the champion. I don't mean by adding 2 3A's and a quad attempt; I mean having better jump landings. Both programs had incredible emotional impact, but almost every single one of Mariah's jumps had some small landing issue that prevented her from having higher GOE. 3F-3T: this was the best one landing wise but it had little speed coming out. 3Lp: off-axis and she almost fell out. 3S: free foot down quickly with no speed. 2A: free foot down even earlier. 3F-2T-2Lp: stand still. 3Z-2t: no speed. 3Z: free foot down quickly and UR. Weirdly, I think a part of the emotional impact of her FS was that every jump looked so dicey and you really rooted for her to stay upright and it's a little jolt of joy every time she manages to fight for the landing. But without these jump landing bobbles, she could've gotten more GOE. If she could have gotten an additional 1.2 GOE on each jumping pass and not UR'ed the last 3Z, she could've made up for the 10-point differential with Alysa. Actually her PCS would probably go up too if she didn't lose speed with every jumping pass, so she would even have a bit of a cushion.

One would hope that the judging system is such that, if she can skate an emotionally magnificent program exactly like she did, but cleaned up all those jump landings, that she would get properly rewarded for it.

I hope the lesson Mariah takes away from all this is not that she can't compete with someone like Alysa, but that she can be very competitive if she keeps working hard on perfecting the jumps she has got.
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Higher PCS? All her PCS were into the 9’s as she scored five 10’s from the judges for performance and interpretation of the music. She was justly rewarded; they really couldn’t have gone much higher. As for the flow of the landings, I agree with you that potentially a few more points could’ve been gained but the gap was too big.
 
Coco said:
How many times has Kwan attended Nationals since 2005? I think she was there in 2014 to escort Claire Ferguson for her HOF presentation. Then she was honored in 2012??? in San Jose, I believe. Can't recall her having an active presence or even attending otherwise.

I highly doubt Tara has that much clout at NBC. So typical of Kwan fans to blame her, though lol.

Michelle has made it clear she wants to move on and expand her "brand" as the kids call it. That might be a factor as well.

Also, sadly, mentions of Kwan's achievements highlight the relative lack of success since her retirement. That's probably a factor, too.
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Michelle for sure was at 2014 Nationals. I remember they showed her watching Mirai's heartbreaking exhibition performance from backstage or just off the ice. It was just after Mirai found out that she didn't make the Olympic team. I remember thinking that it was Michelle's way of being supportive of Mirai. But in spite of her legend status, I don't expect commentators to mention her every time her music comes up. Why should they?
 
[QUOTE="kwanatic, post: 5742838, member: 44515]

Despite Tara's Olympic win, she isn't even a fraction as loved or as impactful as Michelle Kwan was/is. I think it's a conscious decision by the producers to keep Lipinski happy.
[/QUOTE]

UM.....Tara is just fine. I suspect people are still angry that Tara bested Michelle.
 
I think the issue is that they tend to show photos of previous champions and US favorites when they are going to commercial breaks or at the end of each competition. I didn't watch the whole thing (I don't have NBCSN) - did they show a solo picture of Michelle at any point? Or of Evan Lysacek aside from him being on the podium with Johnny when Johnny was the gold medalist? If they didn't do either of these things, then it can be interpreted as being done in favor of (for lack of a better term) Tara and Johnny and avoiding emphasizing their main rivals.I watched the NBC ladies coverage, and I don't recall seeing Michelle appear on the screen, that's why I'm asking if Michele and Evan were covered as solo skaters in the pics, it's very possible I simply missed them. And as I've said before, NBC seems to have gotten into a pattern of always showing that old photo of Tara in at the end of the ladies coverage, so that seems definitely geared to emphasizing her.

And I'm not saying it's wrong to feature Johnny and Tara, they are the hosts. However, if they are ignoring or downplaying Evan and Michele, that can suggest the move is deliberate to fans.
 
Yazmeen said:
I think the issue is that they tend to show photos of previous champions and US favorites when they are going to commercial breaks or at the end of each competition. I didn't watch the whole thing (I don't have NBCSN) - did they show a solo picture of Michelle at any point? Or of Evan Lysacek aside from him being on the podium with Johnny when Johnny was the gold medalist? If they didn't do either of these things, then it can be interpreted as being done in favor of (for lack of a better term) Tara and Johnny and avoiding emphasizing their main rivals.I watched the NBC ladies coverage, and I don't recall seeing Michelle appear on the screen, that's why I'm asking if Michele and Evan were covered as solo skaters in the pics, it's very possible I simply missed them. And as I've said before, NBC seems to have gotten into a pattern of always showing that old photo of Tara in at the end of the ladies coverage, so that seems definitely geared to emphasizing her.

And I'm not saying it's wrong to feature Johnny and Tara, they are the hosts. However, if they are ignoring or downplaying Evan and Michele, that can suggest the move is deliberate to fans.
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I didn't watch the whole thing, but weren't they focusing on this year's hall of fame class with a lot of the previous champion stuff? Like Meryl and Charlie, I think maybe Kimmie?
 
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