U.S. Ice Dance 2022-23 news & updates

[skatfan]

Well, given that it's Desi Arnaz's music they're skating to...

Yep, his band and his voice!

 

[layman]

I just watched Hawayek and Baker's new FD. That was a masterpiece! They totally redeemed themselves in the FD (after an artistically disappointing SD).

Where do I begin praising that FD? The choreography was seamless and organic...each move flowed seamlessly into the next. The pacing and the placement of the elements was perfect. I love the way they listened to and interpreted their music. I love the way the music inspired their movements across the ice, which were all innovative. Hawayek and Baker created shapes and pictures that I have never seen before. Moreover, they created a mood. It was breathtaking!

I found the program quite spiritual and yet earthy at the same time. I found the choreography profound and moving. I like the modern, avant-garde direction that this program takes their dancing in. I absolutely loved the program!

 

[layman]

Despite a few rough looking transitions, I was quite pleased with Green and Parsons new FD set to music by Gershwin. I love the fact that they tried something completely different from last year's program with their new FD. I think they skated the program quite conservatively (understandable for the first time out) but I see where they are going with the program and I like the direction that they are taking.

Caroline Green gave me some strong Tessa Virtue vibes in that program! I especially noticed this in the perfection of her line, her strong posture and her attention to details like pointing her feet throughout the changes of position in some really complicated and difficult lifts. This is the first time that I have seen Caroline really stand out in a Green and Parsons program (I am usually watching the strong pictures that her partner creates). I like the way that the choreography in this program allows Caroline to shine! I like this glammed up and classy look for her (she reminded me of Grace Kelly in this program as well).

The program needs more mileage and more speed but I like where this program takes Green and Parson's dancing. I see their evolution as a team.

 

[Karen-W]

I just watched Hawayek and Baker's new FD. That was a masterpiece! They totally redeemed themselves in the FD (after an artistically disappointing SD).

Where do I begin praising that FD? The choreography was seamless and organic...each move flowed seamlessly into the next. The pacing and the placement of the elements was perfect. I love the way they listened to and interpreted their music. I love the way the music inspired their movements across the ice, which were all innovative. Hawayek and Baker created shapes and pictures that I have never seen before. Moreover, they created a mood. It was breathtaking!

I found the program quite spiritual and yet earthy at the same time. I found the choreography profound and moving. I like the modern, avant-garde direction that this program takes their dancing in. I absolutely loved the program!

Lmao. Okay, admit that you are punking all of us, please. You consider this program to be a masterpiece and aren't at all upset that it is, stylistically, exactly the same as their Glass and Chopin FDs from the past two seasons? Where is your demand that they stretch themselves and try something new or different?

 

[AYS]

Lmao. Okay, admit that you are punking all of us, please. You consider this program to be a masterpiece and aren't at all upset that it is, stylistically, exactly the same as their Glass and Chopin FDs from the past two seasons? Where is your demand that they stretch themselves and try something new or different?

I don't think you could get any more different in styles than between H/B's RD and FD this year, so there's that.

I personally could watch this type of ethereal, seamless, almost trance-like FD from them any time. For all their fun, lighter programs, eg, disco and this year's latin RD, this is their true wheelhouse, it's simply beautiful and very difficult to cast a spell like they do.

 

[Karen-W]

I don't think you could get any more different in styles than between H/B's RD and FD this year, so there's that.

I personally could watch this type of ethereal, seamless, almost trance-like FD from them any time. For all their fun, lighter programs, eg, disco and this year's latin RD, this is their true wheelhouse, it's simply beautiful and very difficult to cast a spell like they do.

Oh, I don't disagree that they are really gifted to cast a beautiful spell like they do with these ethereal, soft programs. I wasn't as spellbound with this FD as I was with their Chopin last season on first view, so I'm not sold on it yet, but it is certainly, stylistically, in the same vein.

 

[Karen-W]

Reposting from the Finlandia Trophy discussion as it is mostly relevant to just the very deep US ice dance field:

With all due respect to their crowd-pleasing programs, P/B are way behind G/P (and CarPom) technically. We have two new teams who are wildcards, Wolf/Chen with a ton of talent and charisma if they don’t make mistakes and Bratti/Somerville where he, at least, is a star. I can see P/B finishing behind all those teams depending on where everyone is by Nats.

International scores from US Classic & Nepela have Pate/Bye on par with Green/Parsons, and McNamara/Spiridonov's scores from US Classic are also on par with Green/Parsons, and without major twizzle errors from her in the RD and him in the FD at Nebelhorn, I suspect their score there also would have been on par. Bratti/Somerville, with no major errors at Lombardia, have scored significantly lower than those other three teams. Wolfkostin/Chen made some big errors at US Classic, so it's hard to say where they stack up in the mix - next week at Budapest will be interesting for them (and the Browns, for that matter).

We'll have more information on where the Finlandia scores fit in overall by comparison to other events once the GP starts in a couple weeks, but I'll note that Orihara/Pirinen improved their overall score by 5 points from Nepela to Finlandia, which seems reasonable since she had a major error on her twizzles in the RD at Nepela. I don't think anyone has the sense, from this competition, that Finlandia's scores were low the way people have said "well, US Classic tends, most years, to be a tightly scored event" or "hmmmm, Lombardia is almost always generously scored," so it stands to reason that Finlandia was correctly scored, and what we have developing, at the moment, is a pretty clear hierarchy in the race to become the US #3 team.

Tier 1 -
Pate/Bye - 179.63 US Classic/178.69 Nepela/TBD GPdF
McNamara/Spiridonov - 179.03 US Classic/166.05 Nebelhorn (with errors in both segments)/TBD SkAm
Green/Parsons - 177.34 Finlandia/TBD SCI/TBD NHK

Tier 2 -
Bratti/Somerville - 170.54 Lombardia/TBD SCI
Wolfkostin/Chen - 164.07 US Classic (fall in RD & extended lift deduction in FD)/TBD Budapest/TBD GPdF/TBD NHK
Brown/Brown - 160.62 Nepela (twizzle error by Oona in RD)/TBD Budapest/TBD SCI/TBD Espoo

Tier 4 -
Ling/Wein - 140.83 Finlandia (twizzle errors in FD)
Cesanek/Yehorov - 138.87 Nebelhorn (twizzle errors in both segments & extended lift deduction in FD)/TBD SCI

The only unknown left are where Carreira/Ponomarenko (TBD MKJW/TBD Espoo) fit in the mix - and we won't know where they fit until the GP since they aren't competing in any of the early Challengers. As it is, though, Green/Parsons have some major work to do in the next 2.5 weeks if they wish to maintain the perception that they are in the driver's seat for consideration as the US #3, while Pate/Bye and McNamara/Spiridonov have demonstrated they are capable of scoring on par with Green/Parsons (and, theoretically, Carreira/Ponomarenko if we're going off of where they were last season). Meanwhile, Bratti/Somerville, Wolfkostin/Chen and the Browns have some work to do also, to catch up to those other teams. It's going to be a wild ride over the next couple of months, to see how these teams sort themselves out.

Did you purposefully omit a Tier 3 to show how much separation there was between Ling/Wein's scores and Tier 2?

I will note that Green/Parsons at their worst is only 2 points off Pate/Bye at their best so if they can get themselves sorted, they should easily pass them. OTOH, Pate/Bye's scores may continue to rise as they build their reputation. I do appreciate how consistent Pate/Bye have skated this season and how ready they have come into their competitions.

I will also note that Cesanek/Yehorov were coming off appendicitis, which majorly affected their lifts, so their score should also rise once she's fully recovered.

And it must be opposite world, because I am really looking forward to C/P, and hope they start their season strong.

LOL! Oh, my, no! I was originally going to put Brown/Brown in their own tier but decided against it after I went back and reviewed the Nepela protocols.

@Karen-W Where do Flores/Desyatov and Zingas/Kolesnik fall in all of your tiers? Or do we not have enough data on them yet. I got insta-ubered by F/D at Challenge cup so I am already totally biased but I see them as 100% "in the mix".

I didn't include them since they haven't competed internationally yet - hopefully they'll both be assigned to Golden Spin and we can get a better idea of where they'll fit into the mix. My best guess, based off their NQS scores, is that they'd probably fit into a Tier 3 with the Browns, while Bratti/Somerville & Wolfkostin/Chen are in a separate Tier 2.

It's kind of nuts to realize that there will be 12 senior teams with international assignments by the time Nationals rolls around, and then there are 7 more junior teams with internationals, plus two very promising junior teams who aren't age-eligible for international assignments.

 

[Karen-W]

And we have a full ISU bio update from Carreira/Ponomarenko!

FD:
Rainy Streets (Backbone soundtrack) by Danshin & Arooj
Public Disquiet (Backbone soundtrack) by Danshin & Arooj
Summertime (from Porgy and Bess) by Gerorge Gershwin, perf. by Louis Armstrong & Ella Fitzgerald
Summertime by 101 Strings Orchestra

So, a Gershwin FD battle between CarPon and GrePar this season? I'm SOOOO here for this!!!

 

[litenkyckling]

So, a Gershwin FD battle between CarPon and GrePar this season? I'm SOOOO here for this!!!

I think this music could really suit C/P - kind of jazzy, kind of a bit sultry. Seems a more suitable choice than last year. In the RD however - strange that they're doing Gloria Estefan when they did that last time but hey ho - it was years ago!

 

[Karen-W]

I think this music could really suit C/P - kind of jazzy, kind of a bit sultry. Seems a more suitable choice than last year. In the RD however - strange that they're doing Gloria Estefan when they did that last time but hey ho - it was years ago!

I don't think it's an issue, if they use the last minute or so of "Samba" for their RD - that's the part that, I think, works best with the other two pieces of music they're using, which both have a retro jazzy Latin feel to them. On paper and in the two video clips we've seen of their RD and FD so far, both seem very promising.

 

[angi]

I think this music could really suit C/P - kind of jazzy, kind of a bit sultry. Seems a more suitable choice than last year. In the RD however - strange that they're doing Gloria Estefan when they did that last time but hey ho - it was years ago!

I assume the Gloria Estefan music will only be for something like a lift/character steps and will be short. The music that will set the tone is what we've seen in the short clip they shared which is very promising.

 

[litenkyckling]

I assume the Gloria Estefan music will only be for something like a lift/character steps and will be short. The music that will set the tone is what we've seen in the short clip they shared which is very promising.

Oh yeah - I think this piece in particular is a fantastic choice.

 

[Sylvia]

Reposting from the Finlandia Trophy discussion as it is mostly relevant to just the very deep US ice dance field:
...
I didn't include them since they haven't competed internationally yet - hopefully they'll both be assigned to Golden Spin and we can get a better idea of where they'll fit into the mix. My best guess, based off their NQS scores, is that they'd probably fit into a Tier 3 with the Browns, while Bratti/Somerville & Wolfkostin/Chen are in a separate Tier 2.

So you're leaving Tier 3 empty for now?

 

[Karen-W]

So you're leaving Tier 3 empty for now?

LOL - Tier 3 is TBD! We could have a Tier 3 and a Tier 4, or just a Tier 3, by the time the late summer/fall internationals are done.

Of course, it's really 5 or 6 tiers, but Chock/Bates and Hawayek/Baker go without saying as 1 and 2.

 

[litenkyckling]

Listen, I am a sucker for anything that has a noire feeling to it. But knowing that this FD has been choreographed by Madison Hubbell? Amazing - not that it's the same thing but her and Zach's Caught Out in the Rain FD is an all time favourite of mine - so I have high hopes for something that sets a mood.

This just sounds like it will show off Christina's new edges

 

[VGThuy]

Watching Green/Parson's RD for the first time and I think the foundation is there, but MIDA should really revamp the choreographic parts in-between the elements and bring in a real Latin dance consultant to really get them into the mode. Both Caroline and Michael are still looking like they're dancing with their siblings (except I think they had more chemistry with their siblings...). Maybe the age gap between the two is hindering that part.

Right now, their RD is weirdly trying to do the fun "samba dance" Latin while the middle Historia un Amor part is trying to do the sexy but they're not going 100% in either direction and look cautious and a bit afraid to touch each other. If the sultry sexy isn't their thing then they should pick a new rhumba piece and go full on with the fun.

The lack of speed is a bit concerning in that it was noticeable. I remember the Parsons having great speed when they were juniors and I don't remember the Greens having issues with that either. They must have had a late-ish start because you can tell they're still gelling with the programs.

ETA:

Regarding the FD, I get what they're going for and I think Caroline looks great! However, the order of the elements don't work as the music doesn't build properly and it doesn't tell a "story" even in an abstract sense. They need to really re-arrange some things so that the elements weave some sort of journey. Right now, it just seems like itemized elements being performed.

Further, MIDA needs to choreograph in-between the elements to really take advantage of the music. There were so many parts they could have played up the fun parts of the music and the piano playing with some fast hope or steps or some light-hearted dancing but they kind of just glide and are preparing for the element (like before the choreographic steps, that's when they could really be playful but instead they sort of glide on two feet and pose characterless for a moment before going into the choreographic steps).

 

[BittyBug]

They must have had a late-ish start because you can tell they're still gelling with the programs.

In the Anything GOEs interview that was posted in this thread, I think they said they didn't get their programs until August, when they moved to MIDA. So yes, they got a very late start and I think that and the coaching change are reflected in their programs being not quite as ready for prime time as the other teams. I believe they said as much during the interview.

 

[Trillian]

Of course, it's really 5 or 6 tiers, but Chock/Bates and Hawayek/Baker go without saying as 1 and 2.

I’m guessing this was discussed in the Finlandia thread, but H/B’s margin over G/P was huge considering how last season went for those two teams. I agree that it was a pretty definitive statement on where those two teams stand relative to one another right now.

Despite the numbers, I’m not convinced G/P are that vulnerable to P/B, M/S, etc. I’d still consider them the favorites for the #3 spot, but we’ll see how they progress.

It’s going to be interesting to see how C/P look, and how the crowded field shakes out at nationals in general, but I have to say I am really impressed with P/B. I like their consistency and the fact that they seem to have found a groove that works well for them in terms of style and performance. (So many of the younger teams are strong technically but haven’t figured out their personality as performers yet.) I don’t see them overtaking G/P, but I do think they’re among the strongest contenders.

 

[litenkyckling]

In the Anything GOEs interview that was posted in this thread, I think they said they didn't get their programs until August, when they moved to MIDA. So yes, they got a very late start and I think that and the coaching change are reflected in their programs being not quite as ready for prime time as the other teams. I believe they said as much during the interview.

I think in the interview they said they'd moved to MIDA six weeks or so before Champs Camp which was at the end of August.

 

[Karen-W]

I’m guessing this was discussed in the Finlandia thread, but H/B’s margin over G/P was huge considering how last season went for those two teams. I agree that it was a pretty definitive statement on where those two teams stand relative to one another right now.

Not really, that I can recall, but yes, it is a most emphatic statement of where the two teams stack up against each other right now. HawBak have solidified their position as the clear US #2.

 

[VGThuy]

G/P has ways to improve but they can do it given some more time, and especially since they didn't get their programs until August. That and the coaching change, this will either be a transitional year for them, much like Carreira/Ponomarenko had last season (sans Anthony's injury...let's hope), or they can some how pull things together by the time the GP hits or by Nationals/4CC. I just remember some examples when the Challengers looked bad for a team (relative to their national competitors) but they turned things around by the GP.

 

[Karen-W]

G/P has ways to improve but they can do it given some more time, and especially since they didn't get their programs until August. That and the coaching change, this will either be a transitional year for them, much like Carreira/Ponomarenko had last season (sans Anthony's injury...let's hope), or they can some how pull things together by the time the GP hits or by Nationals/4CC. I just remember some examples when the Challengers looked bad for a team (relative to their national competitors) but they turned things around by the GP.

Yes... But it's 2.5 weeks until their GP debut, which is NOT a lot of time. I think most of the time when we've seem dramatic upgrades from the Challengers to the GP are when teams have at least a month between their Challenger debut and their first GP. The other concern with GrePar, IMO, is that there are issues with both the RD and the FD for them. Neither were really well-received and there's a lot of work to be done on both.

 

[BittyBug]

Let's not forget that Hawayek and Baker really struggled for most of last season, but managed to pull it together for Nationals. I wouldn't write Green & Parsons off quite yet.

 

[litenkyckling]

Yes... But it's 2.5 weeks until their GP debut, which is NOT a lot of time. I think most of the time when we've seem dramatic upgrades from the Challengers to the GP are when teams have at least a month between their Challenger debut and their first GP. The other concern with GrePar, IMO, is that there are issues with both the RD and the FD for them. Neither were really well-received and there's a lot of work to be done on both.

this definitely makes the bronze at SCI look like its heading towards LaLa

 

[VGThuy]

Yes... But it's 2.5 weeks until their GP debut, which is NOT a lot of time. I think most of the time when we've seem dramatic upgrades from the Challengers to the GP are when teams have at least a month between their Challenger debut and their first GP. The other concern with GrePar, IMO, is that there are issues with both the RD and the FD for them. Neither were really well-received and there's a lot of work to be done on both.

That's true. I'm not expecting a miracle, but I actually don't think their RD needs that much work. It just needs more speed, more oomph, and better levels. As for the FD...it can be done. Remember the Shibs had 3 weeks in-between 2015 Nepela where they placed third behind Gilles/Poirier and Coomes/Buckland and then we had high scores (then they were high scores) for Chock/Bates at Skate America, then at 2015 Skate Canada, the Shibs came out with a revamped FD and SD that was better received due to the execution and speed than it was in Nepela and pretty much tied with Chock/Bates at Skate America (in the FD). I mean stories like that are rare, but not impossible. It can happen when a team has a sluggish start, then they can have a surprisingly great finish at the end of the season...especially during the first post-Olympic season.

 

[Trillian]

Let's not forget that Hawayek and Baker really struggled for most of last season, but managed to pull it together for Nationals. I wouldn't write Green & Parsons off quite yet.

I’m not sure I’d characterize H/B’s last season as “struggling” - they were out for months due to injury and couldn’t compete at all until late November. I’d put being completely out of competition into a different category than a team having a rough outing (or several) early in the season.

I agree with you about not writing off G/P, though. I’ll be surprised if they catch H/B this season, but I’d be even more surprised if they get overtaken by anyone else. For getting such a late start, where they are currently makes sense.

 

[litenkyckling]

I’m not sure I’d characterize H/B’s last season as “struggling” - they were out for months due to injury and couldn’t compete at all until late November. I’d put being completely out of competition into a different category than a team having a rough outing (or several) early in the season.

They were also double injured as she had a knee issue earlier in the offseason and then a concussion afterwards

 

[~tapdancer~]

H/B and P/B give me all the emotions and feels. The rest (in US Ice dance) are appreciated by me but that's about it. I know it doesn't really matter much, but just putting it out there for the season...H/B and P/B will be getting my love this season. Gonna just keep it simple.

 

[Karen-W]

So, Budapest Trophy was interesting... Part of me thinks this was a generously scored event, but we'll see how things play out on the GP. Having said that, a clean Wolfkostin/Chen have demonstrated they're competitive with the likes of Pate/Bye, McNamara/Spiridonov and Green/Parsons for the US #3 spot this season. Meanwhile, the Browns are still trailing behind and have much work to do.

Looking ahead to the GP - there are some GREAT matchups we have to help sort things out, and of course, we're waiting for Carreira/Ponomarenko's season debut (TBD MKJW/TBD Espoo).

GPdF - Wolfkostin/Chen and Pate/Bye
NHK - Wolfkostin/Chen and Green/Parsons

Tier 1 -
Wolfkostin/Chen - 164.07 US Classic (fall in RD & extended lift in FD)/180.46 Budapest (extended lift in FD)/TBD GPdF/TBD NHK
Pate/Bye - 179.63 US Classic/178.69 Nepela/TBD GPdF
McNamara/Spiridonov - 179.03 US Classic/166.05 Nebelhorn (with errors in both segments)/TBD SkAm
Green/Parsons - 177.34 Finlandia/TBD SCI/TBD NHK

Tier 2 -
Bratti/Somerville - 170.54 Lombardia/TBD SCI
Brown/Brown - 160.62 Nepela (twizzle error by Oona in RD)/166.33 Budapest (extended lift in RD)/TBD SCI/TBD Espoo

Tier 3 -
Ling/Wein - 140.83 Finlandia (twizzle errors in FD)
Cesanek/Yehorov - 138.87 Nebelhorn (twizzle errors in both segments & extended lift in FD)/TBD SCI

Oh, and someone needs to call MIDA and tell them to fix that extended lift that Wolfkostin/Chen have been hit for at both US Classic and now Budapest Trophy.

 

[litenkyckling]

I think W/C were incredibly generously scored here... some moments in the FD still looked a bit scrappy, especially towards the end. On the GP I think they'll fall around the 172 mark - or at least around whatever P/B are getting.