U.S. Ice Dance 2022-23 news & updates

~tapdancer~

Knees won't let me tap dance anymore
Messages
6,132
I am not convinced that C/P won't win at least bronze at Nats. Their programs are great and I hope they are able to work hard and get them polished. Judges are giving them some pretty good GOE. Browns don't need to be anywhere close to the podium. In the pbp thread for Espoo it was suggested they get other partners, I agree. She looks like she would do better with a taller partner.

So basically we have CarPon, GrePar, P/B, and the Browns and who else? In the mix after C/B and H/B. I feel like I am missing more but I can't think right now.

Ok I checked...Bratti/Som and McN/Spir might be in the mix for bronze though I doubt it. We also have Ces/Yeh, Ling/Wein, but neither seem there yet for me. The question is how will the two young teams of Zing/Kol and Kon/Sche figure in? They are both pretty stellar with awesome potential.
 
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litenkyckling

Well-Known Member
Messages
586
I know lol. I was just saying I think they deserved bronze in Espoo and it wasn’t all home cooking.
I would respectfully disagree here - I don’t think their FD was 4+ points better than cpom here. Maybe they did deserve the bronze by a smaller margin but I think the judging here for both US teams here wasn’t in line with the way the rest of the competition was judged.
 

litenkyckling

Well-Known Member
Messages
586
I am not convinced that C/P won't win at least bronze at Nats. Their programs are great and I hope they are able to work hard and get them polished. Judges are giving them some pretty good GOE. Browns don't need to be anywhere close to the podium. In the pbp thread for Espoo it was suggested they get other partners, I agree. She looks like she would do better with a taller partner.

So basically we have CarPon, GrePar, P/B, and the Browns and who else? In the mix after C/B and H/B. I feel like I am missing more but I can't think right now.

Ok I checked...Bratti/Som and McN/Spir might be in the mix for bronze though I doubt it. We also have Ces/Yeh, Ling/Wein, but neither seem there yet for me. The question is how will the two young teams of Zing/Kol and Kon/Sche figure in? They are both pretty stellar with awesome potential.
I know everyone loves the browns and I do too but if I had to pair her with someone else it would be Ethan Peal
 

TanithandBenFan

Author of the Ice and Edge Series
Messages
8,779
I am not convinced that C/P won't win at least bronze at Nats. Their programs are great and I hope they are able to work hard and get them polished. Judges are giving them some pretty good GOE. Browns don't need to be anywhere close to the podium. In the pbp thread for Espoo it was suggested they get other partners, I agree. She looks like she would do better with a taller partner.

So basically we have CarPon, GrePar, P/B, and the Browns and who else? In the mix after C/B and H/B. I feel like I am missing more but I can't think right now.

Ok I checked...Bratti/Som and McN/Spir might be in the mix for bronze though I doubt it. We also have Ces/Yeh, Ling/Wein, but neither seem there yet for me. The question is how will the two young teams of Zing/Kol and Kon/Sche figure in? They are both pretty stellar with awesome potential.
Flores/Desyatov are also very much a part of the conversation.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
39,775
I watched without participating in PBP because friends came over and I forced them to shut up and watch. Then I had to pay attention closely to the performances because then they made me explain all the elements and what made one good and what made one bad outside what was obvious to anyone who can see.

Let me just say that I totally agreed with most of the scores and the spread. It was clear that Gilles/Poirier were just on fire and skated that program with more conviction than Hawayek/Baker who skated much smaller than G/P. I don’t think every individual point differences in PCS adding together and factored by 2.00 made the PCS differential unreasonable at all. As for GOE, well, I’d have to go back to every element again but I felt that G/P had much more ease and better execution of almost all of their elements and should have reflected in GOE differences.

Same story with Turkklia/Versluis v. Carreira/Ponomarenko. CarPon had a great opening lift and they are clearly trying hard to get in-character…but that seemed slow, self-conscious, and it gave a laborious, heavy, and effortful look all-around in comparison to TurkVers who were so fast, effervescent, and went in and out of their elements with much more ease and ability on display. For those of you who disagree and prefer CarPon, just know the judges did put CarPon ahead of TurkVers in PCS (with TurkVers ahead in composition) so it was all base value and GOE that put TurkVers ahead and I don’t think that’s unfair at all. In fact, that’s more than “fair” in CarPon’s favor given the performances.

TL;DR: I don’t see how the American teams were judges harshly at all. Every score seemed very fair given the performances of the day.
 

~tapdancer~

Knees won't let me tap dance anymore
Messages
6,132
I watched without participating in PBP because friends came over and I forced them to shut up and watch. Then I had to pay attention closely to the performances because then they made me explain all the elements and what made one good and what made one bad outside what was obvious to anyone who can see.

Let me just say that I totally agreed with most of the scores and the spread. It was clear that Gilles/Poirier were just on fire and skated that program with more conviction than Hawayek/Baker who skated much smaller than G/P. I don’t think every individual point differences in PCS adding together and factored by 2.00 made the PCS differential unreasonable at all. As for GOE, well, I’d have to go back to every element again but I felt that G/P had much more ease and better execution of almost all of their elements and should have reflected in GOE differences.

Same story with Turkklia/Versluis v. Carreira/Ponomarenko. CarPon had a great opening lift and they are clearly trying hard to get in-character…but that seemed slow, self-conscious, and it gave a laborious, heavy, and effortful look all-around in comparison to TurkVers who were so fast, effervescent, and went in and out of their elements with much more ease and ability on display. For those of you who disagree and prefer CarPon, just know the judges did put CarPon ahead of TurkVers in PCS (with TurkVers ahead in composition) so it was all base value and GOE that put TurkVers ahead and I don’t think that’s unfair at all. In fact, that’s more than “fair” in CarPon’s favor given the performances.

TL;DR: I don’t see how the American teams were judges harshly at all. Every score seemed very fair given the performances of the day.
I liked your analysis there and I can see where CarPon were judged pretty fair, I just like them so much, I see them through rose-colored glasses. Being a fan is harder than judging in that respect! I do agree that G/P outskated H/B today, Kaitlyn looks hurt and it shows. Jean Luc is perfection but they are a team and he can't do everything.
 

Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
Messages
24,667
I am not convinced that C/P won't win at least bronze at Nats. Their programs are great and I hope they are able to work hard and get them polished. Judges are giving them some pretty good GOE. Browns don't need to be anywhere close to the podium. In the pbp thread for Espoo it was suggested they get other partners, I agree. She looks like she would do better with a taller partner.

So basically we have CarPon, GrePar, P/B, and the Browns and who else? In the mix after C/B and H/B. I feel like I am missing more but I can't think right now.

Ok I checked...Bratti/Som and McN/Spir might be in the mix for bronze though I doubt it. We also have Ces/Yeh, Ling/Wein, but neither seem there yet for me. The question is how will the two young teams of Zing/Kol and Kon/Sche figure in? They are both pretty stellar with awesome potential.

Flores/Desyatov are also very much a part of the conversation.
We still have two more competitions to go in the fall season (GPF for ChoBat & HawBak, Golden Spin for CarPon, PateBye & ZingKol), but it seems pretty clear that there is a two-way competition for bronze & pewter, and then a fight between 5 to 7 teams for 5th through 10th place at Nats, with maybe 2 other teams to add to the conversation for 10th through 13th place.

Gold/Silver - Chock/Bates (202.80 SkAm/209.13 NHK) & Hawayek/Baker (202.07 SkAm/202.46 Espoo) - depending on how well each team skates, injuries, etc

Bronze/Pewter - Green/Parsons (194.19 SCI/191.10 NHK) & Carreira/Ponomarenko (188.80 Espoo/187.42 MKJW)

5th through 10th - Bratti/Somerville (179.14 SCI), Pate/Bye (174.03 GPdF), Brown/Brown (173.74 MKJW/166.70 Espoo), McNamara/Spiridonov (167.05 SkAm), Wolfkostin/Chen (164.89 GPdF/148.01 NHK)

Zingas/Kolesnik & Flores/Desyatov - scored 192.74 & 187.86 at US Dance Final (for comparison Ling/Wein scored 171.30 - see Finlandia score below for perspective)

10th through 13th - Cesanek/Yehorov (150.79 SCI), Ling/Wein (140.83 Finlandia)

My best guess is that ZingKol will score somewhere in the 165-170 range at Golden Spin - they're certainly not going to match what GreenP or CarPon have scored internationally, and there is a pretty big gap between those two and the rest of the top 10 going into Nats.

Personally, I'm holding out hope that, for whatever reason, the Worlds and 4CCs teams are not exactly the same - like if it's really close (within a point or two) between CarPon and GreenP for 3rd/4th that the 4th place team gets the 4CCs assignment while the 3rd place team gets the Worlds assignment. Or that the USFS just says "screw it" and sends 4th-6th to 4CCs so that they can all get WS Championship points (especially if the USFS has reason to believe that ChoBat are done after this season).
 
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Debbie S

Well-Known Member
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14,429
I could see USFS splitting the Worlds and 4CC assignments between #3 and #4 if the results are close, but with 4CC in the U.S., there's no way C/B and H/B aren't going, unless they decline, which I can't imagine they would unless there's an injury. And C/B in particular need that time in front of judges.
 
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Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
Messages
24,667
I could see USFS splitting the Worlds and 4CC assignments between #3 and #4 if the results are close, but with 4CC in the U.S., there's no way C/B and H/D aren't going, unless they decline, which I can't imagine they would unless there's an injury. And C/B in particular need that time in front of judges.
That's sort of how I see it too with regard to 4CCs. I don't see the USFS willingly giving up a guaranteed medal (C/B) and a possible medal (H/B - if they're trying to make up ground on FBSoer before Worlds) just to get the other teams WS points, but I could see them doing that for #3 & 4 since I think they've clearly separated themselves from the rest of the pack this fall - they're probably looking at 6th place at best since I don't see either GreenP or CarPon beating LajLag at 4CCs, and the points you get for 6th at 4CCs (496) fall right between the points you get for 9th & 10th (517 & 465) at Worlds, which is probably where whomever is US3 in Saitama will end up.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
27,949
I appreciate 4CC moving away from being a second tier competition, especially in dance. However, I wish there was a second tier post-nationals international as there are so many skaters around the world who deserve to compete after December/January but whose feds don't have enough spots for them to do so at euros/worlds/4CC. (Whether it's only one dance spot for Finland or only 3 dance spots for the US.) I feel like it would be good for skating if more skaters could keep their seasons going, although I know that would cost money as well.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,206
Have to say I felt both C/P and H/B got judged very very harshly compared to others at Espoo. That bronze should have been C/P's who have a much better FD with way more nuance, sophistication, and complexity than T/V who got some of the biggest home ice boost I've ever seen. And H/B finishing no less than 17 points behind G/P is also completely unfair imo.
big question...I thought H/B had fantastic skating skills but they rec'd 8.86 compared to 9.39 G/P. Has Piper improved her skating skills drastically over the last few yrs. because it was said they were bad a lot a few yrs. ago..Paul always had great skating skills. l am asking for expert opinion as unless it is exactly pointed out to me where and when something happened & why it is bad I am lost....I never figure skated?
 

Karen-W

Neither sexy nor sultry, but loving life!
Messages
24,667
I appreciate 4CC moving away from being a second tier competition, especially in dance. However, I wish there was a second tier post-nationals international as there are so many skaters around the world who deserve to compete after December/January but whose feds don't have enough spots for them to do so at euros/worlds/4CC. (Whether it's only one dance spot for Finland or only 3 dance spots for the US.) I feel like it would be good for skating if more skaters could keep their seasons going, although I know that would cost money as well.
4CCs has never been a second tier competition for dance or pairs, really, for the entirety of its lifetime. Both the US and CAN have almost always sent their top teams in dance and pairs, with the only exception to that rule being Olympic seasons, usually due to the travel and short turnaround time on the calendar.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
27,949
4CCs has never been a second tier competition for dance or pairs, really, for the entirety of its lifetime. Both the US and CAN have almost always sent their top teams in dance and pairs, with the only exception to that rule being Olympic seasons, usually due to the travel and short turnaround time on the calendar.

That was really not the point I was making, but okay.
 

Debbie S

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,429
big question...I thought H/B had fantastic skating skills but they rec'd 8.86 compared to 9.39 G/P. Has Piper improved her skating skills drastically over the last few yrs. because it was said they were bad a lot a few yrs. ago..Paul always had great skating skills. l am asking for expert opinion as unless it is exactly pointed out to me where and when something happened & why it is bad I am lost....I never figure skated?
H/B missed some levels on their step sequences....some turns were either flat or did not maintain a consistent edge...so that does reflect in the skating skills mark. They seemed a bit tentative at times whereas G/P were very confident and had good speed and flow. I think G/P's scores were a bit high....IMO, their skating skills are on the same level as G/F and C/B but don't particularly stand out...but they were the class of the field here and the judges scored them as such.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,206
H/B missed some levels on their step sequences....some turns were either flat or did not maintain a consistent edge...so that does reflect in the skating skills mark. They seemed a bit tentative at times whereas G/P were very confident and had good speed and flow. I think G/P's scores were a bit high....IMO, their skating skills are on the same level as G/F and C/B but don't particularly stand out...but they were the class of the field here and the judges scored them as such.
Thank-you. So Kaitlyn was a bit off but G/P was overmarked as well.
 

yeslek

Well-Known Member
Messages
523
big question...I thought H/B had fantastic skating skills but they rec'd 8.86 compared to 9.39 G/P. Has Piper improved her skating skills drastically over the last few yrs. because it was said they were bad a lot a few yrs. ago..Paul always had great skating skills. l am asking for expert opinion as unless it is exactly pointed out to me where and when something happened & why it is bad I am lost....I never figure skated?
Pipers are still not good. Not sure what the judges saw.
 

clairecloutier

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,190
I would not be in favor of USFS splitting 4CCs/Worlds between U.S. #3/#4. 4CCs is going to be a very important event this season in dance, with 3 potential World medalists presumably competing at 4CCs and many other strong teams as well. USFS should 100% send the A team IMO. And I believe they will do that.
 
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kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
35,915
Aside from the strategic reasons for wanting to be at 4C's -- the tendency for scores to increase as the season goes on that impacts momentum going into Worlds and/or Top 24 SB/WS for next season's GP's, a place to try out program changes, a reset on the season or trying to maintain momentum, the championship WS points needed to offset points earned by rivals at Euros for starting groups at Worlds -- there's prize money to be earned, and, this year, for the NA-based skaters, the time zone changes are minimal, and the travel distances and the costs of coaches' travel and accommodations are less.
 

Ena Grins

Well-Known Member
Messages
121
Totally agree that the battles for 1-2 and then 3-4 are set. I sincerely hope all the coaches at MIDA and IAM are breaking out their stopwatches because with how close the scores are for CarPon and GrePar, the bronze could easily come down to an extended lift deduction.

The fight for 5th-6th will also be fun with so many teams in the mix. I'll definitely be paying attention to Zingas/Kolesnik's scores at Golden Spin.
 

yurokis40

Well-Known Member
Messages
679
Hayawek and Baker are such a bore US ice dance is in big trouble if they are the next leaders following C&B retirement.
 

her grace

Team Guignard/Fabbri
Messages
5,357
I would not be in favor of USFS splitting 4CCs/Worlds between U.S. #3/#4. 4CCs is going to be a very important event this season in dance, with 3 potential World medalists presumably competing at 4CCs and many other strong teams as well. USFS should 100% send the A team IMO. And I believe they will do that.

Agreed. Whichever team takes 3rd is going to have zero worlds experience and will need 4CC for world standing points, experience, momentum, et al.
 

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