U.S. Ice Dance 2021-22 season news & updates

[Wyliefan]

At this point in all their careers, ice dance teams don't need to stand out to grab the judges' attention.

Actually, they kind of do. A number of teams have benefited from theatrical programs. Look at Smart and Diaz's stellar season after they finally got a program with a great theme that fit them well.

 

[Debbie S]

Did anyone notice during an element late in their FD, S/K hit a wonky position, got 1 point, then it was corrected and the mark shot up to 4 points after about 5 seconds. I wish I could remember the element.

Was this a choreo element? They are all scored 1.10 plus GOE....you may have seen the initial default score and then the score once the GOEs were entered. There is usually a few seconds delay.

 

[yeslek]

Given that Chock and Bates failed to medal in a weakened Worlds 2021 field with a gimmick program, I fail to understand why they thought they had a better chance at medaling against a stronger field in the Olympics with another gimmick program.

The three teams that medaled all went with variations of swoopy romantic. It's pretty clear international judges like swoopy romantic more than they like gimmick.

I don't know if Chock and Bates ice dance is as good or better than any of the three medalists teams. But I do know bad strategy when I see it.

I couldn’t disagree more

 

[olympic]

Was this a choreo element? They are all scored 1.10 plus GOE....you may have seen the initial default score and then the score once the GOEs were entered. There is usually a few seconds delay.

Thanks. That was helpful

 

[AYS]

At this point in all their careers, ice dance teams don't need to stand out to grab the judges' attention. The judges know each and every top team very well from having watched them compete and judging them for multiple years and events.

I don't even know if being distinctive works for fresh out of juniors teams, since I don't know that judges particularly care for freshness and originality.

There are many ways a non-lyrical program can also be non-gimmicky. The Shibutanis managed that into Worlds silver and Olympic bronze. Using powerful music or folk based music or genuinely current music can be non-lyrical but not gimmicky. I wouldn't call G/P's "Both Sides Now" program gimmicky and it took bronze at Worlds last year.

But a snake and a what, snake charmer, and then an alien and an astronaut are gimmicky. It felt to my uneducated eye that Chock and Bates were en route to medaling at Worlds 2020 and I can understand their trying to replicate an imagined success by using the same program in 2021. But it didn't work in 2021. They're a team with many strengths but the program was insufficient in a weakened Worlds to get them on the podium.

There was a lesson to be learned there and they chose to ignore it.

Chock and Bates got the second highest CO score in the competition (behind P/C), so I think your read on why they didn't medal is off the mark. The judges loved this FD, they showed that in how they scored the TE also. They put themselves behind the 8 ball with an uncharacteristically weak performance of the RD and then they just got outscored on GOE and other components in the FD (mainly SS). But, it wasn't about the choice in program.

1​

PAPADAKIS Gabriella / CIZERON Guillaume

FRA

136.15​

76.75​

59.40​

9.82​

9.79​

9.96​

10.00​

9.93​

0.00​

#20​

2​

SINITSINA Victoria / KATSALAPOV Nikita

ROC

131.66​

73.43​

58.23​

9.71​

9.61​

9.75​

9.71​

9.75​

0.00​

#19​

3​

HUBBELL Madison / DONOHUE Zachary

USA

130.89​

73.56​

58.33​

9.75​

9.57​

9.82​

9.68​

9.79​

1.00​

#18​

4​

CHOCK Madison / BATES Evan

USA

130.63​

72.59​

58.04​

9.50​

9.54​

9.68​

9.89​

9.75​

0.00​

#17​

 

[her grace]

So proud of US ice dance. Each team had incredibly strong performances, H/D with their amazing power and speed, C/B with their innovative and challenging lifts, and H/B with their intricate choreo and emotional interpretation. I felt honored to watch.

Madison Hubbell says H/D plan to compete at Worlds, source: Washington Post

“There’s something unique about an Olympic medal, but part of our decision of retiring after this year was because we were already very satisfied with what we had accomplished on the world stage,” said Hubbell, who added that she and Donohue plan to compete at this season’s world championships.

 

[litenkyckling]

I guess World's will be a chance for them to compete in front of an audience and friends/family for the last time, and they probably want that moment regardless of the result. That and they probably feel a bit of duty to help ensure the 3 spots for once they go.

I'm not a huge fan of this C/B FD but mostly because it doesn't really have a crescendo moment for me - it's all a little slow and with Daft Punk I think I was looking for something a little more in the choreo. I also think that today, out of the top 6 teams, their twizzles were no. 6 - they just looked a little slow and laboured (maybe they wanted to avoid a 2021 Worlds moment there). I totally get if they want to continue, I just wonder what else artistically they want to bring?

 

[blancanieves]

Chock/Bates were on a downward trend--switching to character based (a little kinder than gimmicky ) programs seemed to revitalize their own interest in the sport and brought them back into the medal conversation. After 2020, we all pretty much knew S/K would be on the podium here, leaving one spot for the US, and H/D have been US #1 arguably going back to 2018, when they skate cleanly. Pulling up to a definitive 4th at this Olympics after dropping to 9th in 2018 was a great result for C/B, and they won the FD in the team event, which has to have felt great. While I'm sure they trained hoping for a medal, they likely knew it was a long shot and can be really proud of what they achieved here.

The Montreal camp seems to favor lyrical programs, and since they turn out a lot of teams who score well, that's pushed the entire discipline in that direction. C/B have been a refreshing change of pace the past few years, and I'm really glad we got to see what this team became after they left their Shpilband years behind.

Bummed that H/B weren't able to move up at least a spot--I love that even when they go super lyrical, there's always an element of creativity and personality to their dances. They're such a unique team, and probably the one team I most wish would move away from Montreal--maybe try the new MI camp? The Montreal teams always struggle with levels early in the season, and I think that's been more true for H/B than anyone, which really hurt them this year with their delayed start. They need coaches who are going to drill them on the technical side if they want to shoot up the standings.

I'd say Montreal favors the strengths that will help a team to score better. C/B's height differential gives them an edge with acrobatics and Madi's theatricality is a strength. So you want to call attention to those qualities in programs that are less subdued, more upfront.

Also, let's not forget that the scoring system was adjusted after 2018. The greater weight of GOE and choreographic elements in the scoring helped some teams to trend upward and challenged others.

 

[SidelineSkater]

I guess World's will be a chance for them to compete in front of an audience and friends/family for the last time, and they probably want that moment regardless of the result. That and they probably feel a bit of duty to help ensure the 3 spots for once they go.

I'm not a huge fan of this C/B FD but mostly because it doesn't really have a crescendo moment for me - it's all a little slow and with Daft Punk I think I was looking for something a little more in the choreo. I also think that today, out of the top 6 teams, their twizzles were no. 6 - they just looked a little slow and laboured (maybe they wanted to avoid a 2021 Worlds moment there). I totally get if they want to continue, I just wonder what else artistically they want to bring?

I said this early in the season. I wish C/B had a bigger build in the second half. Something from Holst’s Planets. It was a stellar (see what I did there) program, but it could have been out of this world.

Similar to Kevin Amoyz…his FS music is pretty but never builds into a big impact moment.

Is it too early to look forward to Worlds? Too much to ask for two US teams on the podium?

 

[dancing_on_ice]

Is it too early to look forward to Worlds? Too much to ask for two US teams on the podium?

I think both Hubbell/Donohue and Chock/Bates will get on the worlds podium. Nikita needs surgery for his back, and Worlds is not worth postponing that even further for. SinKats have already won a world title, so there's not much more they would gain from competing at a post-Olympics Worlds. And the scoring at the Olympics has shown that the judges see both H/D and C/B as vastly superior to S/B, G/P, and G/F.

 

[happycamper2554]

I think both Hubbell/Donohue and Chock/Bates will get on the worlds podium. Nikita needs surgery for his back, and Worlds is not worth postponing that even further for. SinKats have already won a world title, so there's not much more they would gain from competing at a post-Olympics Worlds. And the scoring at the Olympics has shown that the judges see both H/D and C/B as vastly superior to S/B, G/P, and G/F.

S/K already said they will be going. So i wouldn't expect both teams to podium

 

[sk9tingfan]

Wonder where Donahue will be going after they finish touring. She's obviously moving to Spain where she and Adrian will open an ice dancing academy. It would not surprise me if they align themselves with Javier Fernandez. But where Zach will go is more of a mystery. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

 

[yeslek]

Wonder where Donahue will be going after they finish touring. She's obviously moving to Spain where she and Adrian will open an ice dancing academy. It would not surprise me if they align themselves with Javier Fernandez. But where Zach will go is more of a mystery. Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Adrian may be closer continuing

 

[bcash]

I said this early in the season. I wish C/B had a bigger build in the second half. Something from Holst’s Planets. It was a stellar (see what I did there) program, but it could have been out of this world.

Similar to Kevin Amoyz…his FS music is pretty but never builds into a big impact moment.

Is it too early to look forward to Worlds? Too much to ask for two US teams on the podium?

I'm already looking forward to Worlds. I certainly hope that both US teams medal, regardless of whether S/K are going. And hoping for H/B to end up well within top 10.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I'm not a regular follower of ice dance. Are P/C calling it quits?

One reason I'm not such a fan is I got tired of swoopy romantic. I watched more when the couples mixed it up more. V/M's Mahler program, D/W Indian program, S/S Cold Play. Seems we're in a rut at the top.

 

[Sylvia]

I'm not a regular follower of ice dance. Are P/C calling it quits?

This topic is being discussed in the P/C fan thread (they're supposed to compete at their home Worlds next month).

Team USA article on the FD: https://www.teamusa.org/News/2022/F...-Donohue-End-Their-Olympic-Career-With-Bronze

“You work your whole career for the dream of going to the Olympics, and it’s so much more than any other competition,” Donohue, 31, said. “It’s a lot more draining, and wondering, a lot more pressure building up during the year as you lead into it. It’s a moment of appreciation, a moment of taking it in, and for us, being able to close the chapter and fold everything in.”
“We didn’t feel like we left anything undone,” she [Hubbell] added. “The athlete in us has to avoid the desire to nitpick, and (think), ‘Oh well, it was one point (deducted) for the extended lift’ and ‘In the (rhythm dance) if I had gotten a Level 4 on the twizzles.’ Every single athlete that skated today has the same ‘what ifs’ and it would probably be a similar result, if we had all skated absolutely perfectly.”

“Given the depth of ice dance and how fierce the competition is, we knew coming in we would need the best from ourselves to be on the podium,” Bates said. “We are really proud of what we did and proud of the way our competitors skated …. Of course, we wanted to be on the podium, too, but it didn’t happen. That’s part of sport and that’s what makes these Olympics so entertaining for folks at home and so motivating for the athletes.” [...]
“We will probably reconvene and reflect on our season and our career, and see what’s next for us,” Chock, 29, said. “It’s possible we could continue skating, but it’s also possible we will do other things. That’s a decision we haven’t made yet.”

Baker’s mom, Sharon Jones, is a four-time British ice dance champion (with Paul Askham) who placed 13th at the 1988 Calgary Games.
“To be able to call ourselves Olympians, it feels amazing,” Baker, 28, said. “I can’t imagine that many people, other than Ashley Cain-Gribble and Ivan Bukin (who also have an Olympian as a parent) can share that experience with a family member, particularly your mother, in the same discipline even.”

 

[wickedwitch]

I mentioned this in the FD thread, but the US's streak of medals at 5 straight Olympics starting in 2006 is the longest in any discipline for any county, longer than Russian pairs or Russian dance. The next closest is Japanese men at 4 straight. What's even more remarkable is that just one Olympic Games earlier, in 2002, ice dance was by far and away the US's weakest discipline.

Also, at 3 of those 5 events, the US also had the team in 4th which I think shows the depth the US has.

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

Worlds is going to be interesting in that this the first time that I can remember that all dance medalists are going to be there. Wonder if we will see any podium shifts.

Wonder if we will see H/B gain some magic points next year as US #2 or if Green/Parsons vault over them.

 

[baramin]

I mentioned this in the FD thread, but the US's streak of medals at 5 straight Olympics starting in 2006 is the longest in any discipline for any county, longer than Russian pairs or Russian dance. The next closest is Japanese men at 4 straight. What's even more remarkable is that just one Olympic Games earlier, in 2002, ice dance was by far and away the US's weakest discipline.

Also, at 3 of those 5 events, the US also had the team in 4th which I think shows the depth the US has.

Don't US ladies beat them, or am I misunderstanding your metric? 2006, 2002, 1998, 1994, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1976, 1972 & 1968

Still very impressive for our dance program. I remember the early 2000s being so frustrating in terms of our young, promising teams constantly splitting, but Tanith and Ben really managed to build themselves a lasting legacy.

Edit: Oop--you mean ongoing streak, right? My mistake

 

[wickedwitch]

Don't US ladies beat them, or am I misunderstanding your metric? 2006, 2002, 1998, 1994, 1992, 1988, 1984, 1980, 1976, 1972 & 1968

Still very impressive for our dance program. I remember the early 2000s being so frustrating in terms of our young, promising teams constantly splitting, but Tanith and Ben really managed to build themselves a lasting legacy.

I meant current streak. Otherwise, Russian pairs win.

 

[firstflight]

Worlds is going to be interesting in that this the first time that I can remember that all dance medalists are going to be there. Wonder if we will see any podium shifts.

Wonder if we will see H/B gain some magic points next year as US #2 or if Green/Parsons vault over them.

Of course it’s TBD until next year, but Green/Parsons breaking 200 points at 4CC (as loose as the scoring was) certainly indicates it won’t be a cakewalk.

 

[Jammers]

I see H/B as a placeholder starting the next Olympic cycle meaning they may even win a US title or two but younger teams like G/P will eventually pass them up before 2026. They just aren't World podium material and are maxed out on their potential.

 

[bcash]

I'm not a regular follower of ice dance. Are P/C calling it quits?

One reason I'm not such a fan is I got tired of swoopy romantic. I watched more when the couples mixed it up more. V/M's Mahler program, D/W Indian program, S/S Cold Play. Seems we're in a rut at the top.

V/M's Mahler didn't age well at all --- they skated to that incredibly layered and poignant piece of music as if it was a vanilla wedding song. I think the current top teams get into their music much more, with their techniques and their choreographic expression, and are creating distinct identities and images on the ice.

 

[bcash]

G/P had an inspired FD this season. I wish they had gotten to skate it on the bigger stage more. Michael really needs to grow as a dancer a lot more quickly IMO for them to be able to really graduate into a medal threat at the World level.

 

[layman]

I see H/B as a placeholder starting the next Olympic cycle meaning they may even win a US title or two but younger teams like G/P will eventually pass them up before 2026. They just aren't World podium material and are maxed out on their potential.

People said the same things about the Shibutanis (after 2014), that they were just place holders and would soon be overtaken by Hubbell and Donahue (and other teams)...but it never happened.

 

[CassAgain]

There were predictions that Weaver and Poje were going to overtake Davis and White after 2012 Worlds, too. And at least three teams were supposed to overtake Hawayak and Baker in the last few years, too. It may still happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did not.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

People said the same things about the Shibutanis (after 2014), that they were just place holders and would soon be overtaken by Hubbell and Donahue (and other teams)...but it never happened.

If H/D hadn’t made a couple of mistakes at the most unfortunate times they would have.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I don’t think anyone was saying after 2014 that h/d were going to overtake the Shibs. That was when Madi was going through that bad hip injury, surgery, and recovery. Everyone was writing them off because of it.

Shibutani’s themselves weren’t even the top team in the US after the end of the 13-14 season and into the 14-15 season. They, too, were behind C/B and no one thought they’d move ahead either. The pecking order after D/W’s retirement was C/B, gap, Shibs, gap, h/d with h/b on their heals.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember reading that Hubbell/Donohue were going to overtake the Shibs after 2012 Worlds…turns out it was Chock/Bates that did that, a team where it seemed like half the forum didn’t want to exist at the time.

After 2014, people suspected H/D would be overtaken by Hawayek/Baker and it almost happened at 2015 Nationals.

Regarding the Shibs, people thought they should just quit and they would never progress unless they found new partners. People did think 2014 level Hubbell/Donohue would overtake the Shibs (while having to deal with Hawayek/Baker) but not only that but that the Shibs would be dropped for the likes of Aldridge/Eaton too. Lots of variations on how far their demise would be but the main fact is people expected their demise.

Funny how things worked out.

P.S. there was one poster who was huge fan of the Wheaton junior teams from 2017-16 and 2016-2017 and she kept trying to hint that due to their high junior scores, they’d be challenging the senior teams for Olympic spots by 2018. I think the then high scores at 2016 Worlds kind of showed her the light.

 

[Dobre]

Layla Karnes is back on Ice Partner Search.