The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

Marta29

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I agree with Michalle about Svinin&Zhuk's choreography who is making its own way on their own path.
Interesting and appropriate to their skaters.
Ha-ha
 

Dobre

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Personally, as a Stepanova & Bukin fan (not an uber, but a fan that has enjoyed watching them develop since their first senior season), I think that if the Papadakis & Cizeron fans are taking notice of S&B, it's a good sign. S&B have never been high enough for said fans to bother before.

ETA: At least not since 2014-15 when the P&C fan base really became a major thing. Obviously S&B were competitive with P&C before that so if you have been a dedicated skating fan since juniors, then that would be different.
 
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ostile17

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Does anyone know how's Tim Koleto's situation in regard to his Japanese citizenship?

Could he get it in in time for 2022?
 

millyskate

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Personally, as a Stepanova & Bukin fan (not an uber, but a fan that has enjoyed watching them develop since their first senior season), I think that if the Papadakis & Cizeron fans are taking notice of S&B, it's a good sign. S&B have never been high enough for said fans to bother before.

ETA: At least not since 2014-15 when the P&C fan base really became a major thing. Obviously S&B were competitive with P&C before that so if you have been a dedicated skating fan since juniors, then that would be different.
If it's me you're talking about - I'm sorry to disappoint. S&B have been my second-favourite dance team on the circuit for a few seasons now, and it's maybe because I'm particularly familiar with P&C's style that I'm picking up all the subtle references in this year's FD.

The dress is a literal copy of Gabriella's (scoop back, mesh skirt, monochrome, long mesh sleeve, boat neck...) and while I appreciate the stylistic similarities of the programme are more subjective, they were screaming out to me. If you know my posting history I'm also very particular about art and contemporary styles, and tend to have strong opinions about which skaters can pull it off.

I actually had hopes S&B would get closer than they did last year and was looking forward to programs with equally strong personality again. I am surprised they've picked this programme for the FD this year since fluidity isn't Stepanova's strength, and when you place yourself in the same repertoire as P&C and skating skills aren't your greatest quality, it jars IMO.

And it's also because I feel emotionally invested in S&B that I care about their IMO less-than-optimal programme choice.
 
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muffinplus

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Just because S&B are skating to piano music and have some softer moves doesn't mean they are copying P&C style...I mean you are entitled to your opinion ofc, but that seems silly IMO. As for the dresses, i think it's somewhat similar but not the same..
 

Ladida

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Does anyone know how's Tim Koleto's situation in regard to his Japanese citizenship?

Could he get it in in time for 2022?
You need a continuous residence in Japan for 5 years to get a citizenship - I am not sure how long he has been mainly living in Japan. The rest of the criterias shouldn' t be a problem for Tim.

Speaking of new citizenship - how is Carreira's case looking now? I remember she was declined some time ago, but has been there a progress since that?
 
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Peepsquick

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Just because S&B are skating to piano music and have some softer moves doesn't mean they are copying P&C style...I mean you are entitled to your opinion ofc, but that seems silly IMO. As for the dresses, i think it's somewhat similar but not the same..
There is a similarity, even if you don't see it and nobody is going beyond that. I, too, like S/B and I, too, think that their strength lie elsewhere. I was quite fond of last season's RD and FD and I, too, think that this FD is not quite in their wheelhouse. No reason to get defensive.
 

muffinplus

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There is a similarity, even if you don't see it and nobody is going beyond that. I, too, like S/B and I, too, think that their strength lie elsewhere. I was quite fond of last season's RD and FD and I, too, think that this FD is not quite in their wheelhouse. No reason to get defensive.
I am not defensive at all..i really love P&C style but i think the sentiment that someone is copying P&C whenever someone skates to softer music is getting a bit absurd... but as I said you are entitled to that opinion, it is just odd to me especially when 2/3 of that FD isn't even in that style at all
 
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millyskate

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I am not defensive at all..i really love P&C style but i think the sentiment that someone is copying P&C whenever someone skates to sifter musuc is getting a bit absurd... but as I said you are entitled to that opinion, it is just odd to me especially when 2/3 of that FD isn't even in that style at all
My feeling is that the music in the later part of the program is indeed of a different style - but the choreography and attempt at fluid/lyrical actually stays firmly stuck in the style that is suitable to the first minute of the program. Which is why I'm not convinced yet. S&B can do edgy really well and I think that if a bit of their last year's edginess permeated into that second half of the program, it would highlight their strengths more.

It's much deeper than just a vague similarity of music or costume (which even the Russian commentator picked up as a Gabriella reference). It's the way the elements are being blended together, the movement repertoire, the pace. It's a long collection of subtle things which all added together, make for me a strong connection. And beyond what there IS in the program, it's also very about what there isn't.

After watching it again I don't think it's a program disaster. It's just that last year's choreography was one I thought no other dance team on the circuit could skate better than them. This one doesn't give me that feeling.
I like being analytical and I get that others are not seeing this. For example when Dobre mentioned the other Russian teams as references, I went and watched those programs and could not really see any stylistic similarity beyond the superficial - in terms of general program aesthetic, I feel a much stronger connection to what P&C's style is. It is subjective and we can only guess on skaters' (and their teams) motives.

My gut is there is a P&C inspiration, and pre-season wouldn't be fun if we didn't get to analyse the programs.
 

muffinplus

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My feeling is that the music in the later part of the program is indeed of a different style - but the choreography and attempt at fluid/lyrical actually stays firmly stuck in the style that is suitable to the first minute of the program. Which is why I'm not convinced yet.
Can you explain this a bit more because I don't understand.. maybe I need to rewatch it, but I remember sharper movements in the last 2 parts, nothing floaty or lyrical?

I actually think it's pretty slickly blended together (who would have thought the transition from Einaudi to Timberlake could be relatively smooth?) and better than last year's program, which was a bit more derivative IMO with lots of posey and flashy stuff. I mean, Timberlake is not what I consider high art or amazing taste, but I think this program is something that's a bit more unique than last year's and echoes the other "edgier" programs from Svinina/Zhuk's camp this year
 
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Dobre

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If it's me you're talking about
Responding to the post above mine in which someone put together a whole video comparison on instagram. (I can't know if it was you or not, but I'm assuming someone else).

I'm not invalidating your comments or the comparison. I'm just saying that I think it's a good sign. You start moving up, and the complaints and comparisons get louder. It's just the way it works.

I'm sure your comments are more informed than mine with regards to P&C. I can't remember the details from their program last season at all. I never could. I'm so glad they have a new program, and I'm waiting to see it at IDF as the initial responses haven't been great & the camera footage usually isn't at French Masters & FDs usually take longer to be ready. I'd prefer to have the best first impression I can. (I did watch the RD as I enjoy Fame).
 

millyskate

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Can you explain this a bit more because I don't understand.. maybe I need to rewatch it, but I remember sharper movements in the last 2 parts, nothing floaty or lyrical?

I actually think it's pretty slickly blended together (who would have thought the transition from Einaudi to Timberlake could be relatively smooth?) and better than last year's program, which was a bit more derivative IMO with lots of posey and flashy stuff. I mean, Timberlake is not what I consider high art or amazing taste, but I think this program is something that's a bit more unique than last year's and echoes the other "edgier" programs from Svinina/Zhuk's camp
I agree about the music transition being really smooth. It's well done.

To elaborate a bit on what I noticed:
-The lifts are a departure from their traditional style - which shows of Stepanova's flexibility, and showcase a series of distinct shapes / the ability to hold acrobatic poses and hit clean shapes. In this program, the lifts are continuously morphing and moving through subtle movements from one shape to another. P&C use their ability to be seamless and smooth to great effect with this approach - since they're not great at acrobatics. S&B are not seamless or so smooth, so it's not working so well IMO. You could say - at least they're trying something new.


-One of the positions immediately triggered Moonlight Sonata memories for me: https://youtu.be/9C4Sn2yZYoE?t=200

-the hands. The hands of P&C are incredible, it's the kind of detail that makes them great - every split second is a different hand position. They do this without tension.
S&B have always had clean, strong hand positions that work expressively to good effect with long arm span. But this year it feels they're attempting the much softer approach used by P&C - but it's just looking sloppy. The detail isn't there, the timing isn't there.

-The pace: rather than sharp changes of rhythm they have accustomed us to, the whole program is a continuous progression, a thread from beginning to end. That is also a P&C-championed approach to choreography.

These are IMO differences from the other Russian teams, who are doing contemporary work but keeping the clean / sharp movement repertoire.
 

wickedwitch

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Most teams don't stick to one style in the FDs. That's obviously worked well for P/C, but a lof of teams try a wide range of movement and music. And some of those style choices are going to be similar to what P/C does, but that's inevitable if a team is really trying to expand their abilities in all directions.
 

RoseRed

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Responding to the post above mine in which someone put together a whole video comparison on instagram. (I can't know if it was you or not, but I'm assuming someone else).

I'm not invalidating your comments or the comparison. I'm just saying that I think it's a good sign. You start moving up, and the complaints and comparisons get louder. It's just the way it works.

I'm sure your comments are more informed than mine with regards to P&C. I can't remember the details from their program last season at all. I never could. I'm so glad they have a new program, and I'm waiting to see it at IDF as the initial responses haven't been great & the camera footage usually isn't at French Masters & FDs usually take longer to be ready. I'd prefer to have the best first impression I can. (I did watch the RD as I enjoy Fame).
I did think the FD felt more ready than the RD at the French Masters, actually, even though I liked the RD immediately and I wasn't sure about the FD until I watched it a 2nd time a couple weeks later (and loved it).
 

millyskate

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[/QUOTE]
Responding to the post above mine in which someone put together a whole video comparison on instagram. (I can't know if it was you or not, but I'm assuming someone else).

I'm not invalidating your comments or the comparison. I'm just saying that I think it's a good sign. You start moving up, and the complaints and comparisons get louder. It's just the way it works.

I'm sure your comments are more informed than mine with regards to P&C. I can't remember the details from their program last season at all. I never could. I'm so glad they have a new program, and I'm waiting to see it at IDF as the initial responses haven't been great & the camera footage usually isn't at French Masters & FDs usually take longer to be ready. I'd prefer to have the best first impression I can. (I did watch the RD as I enjoy Fame).
Oh wow I'd missed the instagram comparison :)
 

Amantide

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So, I just watched S&B programs. Boy oh boy, where to start...:shuffle:

RD: It was going very well for me, until that sudden cut to Your Song, just 20 seconds or so before the end. It's like you're eating a fillet of beef wellington, and the waiter comes at tell you: "Here is some goat meat to go with it." :unsure: I mean, WTF?!:slinkaway Plus, who's the criminal who made the music editing?
The transition is atrocious. I can make a smoother one for a fan video, by just using mp3cut.net for free. It just doesn't work. The ending is very anticlimactic because people are already applauding when they stop, right before the song starts, and they are like "Oups, no it's not the end. Oh, now we can clap." but the excitement has gone already. And i repeat, Your Song is the goat meat. 🙄

FD: Meh...it's a mishmash of boooring!😑 It's a pity because these two look good together and are pretty to look at. He's dashing and she has beautiful long legs, some beautiful lines etc. These programs are a downgrade from the last season. I would be surprised if they make the world podium this season.

Granted, it's too early to make such prediction, and it's the first performance. There is still a long way to go. Maybe the FD it will grow on me. As of now, I feel disappointed.
 

love_skate2011

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I have not much interest in Ice Dance but S/B were used to be snubbed ? that means its a good thing meaning they are threats for a bigger breakout this year. I say they are in the running for russian no.1. The ones saying this season is a downgrade will eat cake if they medal in GPF and Worlds. :p
 

laviemn

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You need a continuous residence in Japan for 5 years to get a citizenship - I am not sure how long he has been mainly living in Japan. The rest of the criterias shouldn' t be a problem for Tim.
Last year Tim & Misato trained in Japan for some time after the GP season to fulfill the residency requirements, which IIRC they also did when they trained in Italy.

I wonder how concerned they are about Takahashi. If Kana & Daisuke can get even somewhat close to them, my guess is the Japanese Fed would rather send Daisuke to the Olympics.
 

Bigbird

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So, I just watched S&B programs. Boy oh boy, where to start...:shuffle:

RD: It was going very well for me, until that sudden cut to Your Song, just 20 seconds or so before the end. It's like you're eating a fillet of beef wellington, and the waiter comes at tell you: "Here is some goat meat to go with it." :unsure: I mean, WTF?!:slinkaway Plus, who's the criminal who made the music editing?
The transition is atrocious. I can make a smoother one for a fan video, by just using mp3cut.net for free. It just doesn't work. The ending is very anticlimactic because people are already applauding when they stop, right before the song starts, and they are like "Oups, no it's not the end. Oh, now we can clap." but the excitement has gone already. And i repeat, Your Song is the goat meat. 🙄

FD: Meh...it's a mishmash of boooring!😑 It's a pity because these two look good together and are pretty to look at. He's dashing and she has beautiful long legs, some beautiful lines etc. These programs are a downgrade from the last season. I would be surprised if they make the world podium this season.

Granted, it's too early to make such prediction, and it's the first performance. There is still a long way to go. Maybe the FD it will grow on me. As of now, I feel disappointed.

I can sort of understand how you feel about the RD. It seems to end almost twice with the same choreography it's just that the second time Ivan plants a kiss on her. :rolleyes:

I think the FD has potential though it is nicely choreographed. But with each year what gets glaringly obvious is how much better Ivan is in comparison to Stepanova but at least she knows how to perform and it adds another dimension. Zhulin is much better at disguising the difference in levels between SinKats in their RD and FD. But this in my estimation is why they look okay (though not anywhere near Kurt Browning quality) in the RD and rather uninspiring in the FD.

I am rather looking forward to seeing P/C. But with respect to up and comers Ekaterina Katashinskaya and Alexander Vaskovich are quite promising.
 

aftershocks

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It is still shocking how much overscored are Stepanova and Bukin in comparison to powerful skaters with very good skating skills such as Hubbell and Donohue. It seems that judges totally ignore her bad SS, and inability to generate power and speed. Carrereira, unfortunetly, is in the same situation.
A nice surprise are Green/Parsons. I really like their couple, they are powerful skaters, I love their speed and edges. For me they are already better than Carreira/Panomarenko as the basic skills are just much better.
ITA. Unfortunately, it's subjectivity along with rep level and politics, politics, politics... :COP: :judge:
 

aftershocks

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They just don't have the chemistry like V/M to do that.
Hmmm, but V/M's actual relationship is friends and athlete/partners. Any actual romantic chemistry on the ice was manufactured by them for a purpose. Also, they are great performers with physicalities and similar coloring that sparkles and draws audiences in. Add to that their extraordinary SS and amazing ice dance abilities, and few teams will ever be even in the position of attempting to try and top what V/M have achieved. I don't see it happening any time soon.

Meanwhile, Madi/Zach do have chemistry on the ice. And they were briefly dating off-the-ice too. They didn't like each other when they first partnered either, so they've been through a lot on and off-the-ice. Their chemistry and the innate trust they have in each other is definitely there. They are going through a difficult transition dealing with trying to stay on top amidst all the political intrigue of keeping Russian teams in the ice dance medal hunt. Plus, Madi is engaged to another ice dancer, so that is a dynamic that may prevent Madi/Zach from choosing too much hot romance in their on-ice choreo. That has been something they've probably dealt with a lot because I think it took Zach a minute to get over carrying a torch for Madi, while she moved on pretty quickly.

Previously, it was H/D trying hard for so many years to get full credit for their talent in battling against the Shibs and Chock/Bates domestically. And now with C/B rebounding in H/D's own training camp backyard and the Russians pushing up teams that aren't actually better in many areas than H/D, I have to commend H/D for focusing on forging ahead and doing the best they can. It's never been easy for them, and they are getting way too much criticism. Some of it is politically-motivated too. Ahem...
 
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Amantide

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I can sort of understand how you feel about the RD. It seems to end almost twice with the same choreography it's just that the second time Ivan plants a kiss on her. :rolleyes:
Exactly. I liked it up to that point. I know they have to change rhythm but it's too abrupt and it just doesn't match. It looks like two endings. Maybe they can fix it by changing the part where they kiss.


I think the FD has potential though it is nicely choreographed. But with each year what gets glaringly obvious is how much better Ivan is in comparison to Stepanova but at least she knows how to perform and it adds another dimension. Zhulin is much better at disguising the difference in levels between SinKats in their RD and FD. But this in my estimation is why they look okay (though not anywhere near Kurt Browning quality) in the RD and rather uninspiring in the FD.
True what you say about Ivan. And I admit, it's just a first time performance and they have been injured. I'm sure it will improve and who knows, maybe grow a lot on me as well. I just feel like they need something with a bit more "character". They are good at it.

But with respect to up and comers Ekaterina Katashinskaya and Alexander Vaskovich are quite promising.
I don't think I've seen them. Ima check on tube.
 

Spun Silver

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I wonder how concerned they are about Takahashi. If Kana & Daisuke can get even somewhat close to them, my guess is the Japanese Fed would rather send Daisuke to the Olympics.
Not just Daisuke but Kana. She is certainly Japan's best ice dancer, with a lot of international fans.
 

nuge

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I think S/B should just swap the two sections over.Do the slow part first and then the faster section with a ta da ending!
 

aftershocks

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I must admit I've been a bit taken by surprise - an RD to Moulin Rouge so soon after V&M and an FD that appears to me to be channelling P&C.
Well, S/B have also been attempting to copy H/D's style and program themes in recent seasons. So it's not too surprising for S/B to try and cop onto what other teams have put out that's been successful. Hearing that S/B wanted Skate America is also very telling of the effort to challenge H/D head-on for the Worlds podium. S/B should be behind a lot of teams, including H/D, G/P, C/B, and F-B/S... :watch:

ETA:
Also within the skating community, there's a definite fondness for promoting the progeny of former champions, eh. We saw the shout-out to elder Bukin and elder Ponomarenko during the NBC broadcast of the ice dance FD. ;) The younger guys are talented, yes. And they should stand on their own merits. S/B are flashy and entertaining, but they aren't better than a lot of teams.

Carreira has improved a lot, and she and Anthony have worked very hard. C/P are always pleasant to watch, but subjectively they aren't my favorite U.S. ice dance up-and-comers. I find the pairing of Green/Parsons quite interesting. They are showing off a lot of skill and potential, especially in their F/D. I enjoy Mc/Carp very much, but it doesn't appear as if their season is getting off to a great start at the moment.
 
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muffinplus

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3,238
I agree about the music transition being really smooth. It's well done.

To elaborate a bit on what I noticed:
-The lifts are a departure from their traditional style - which shows of Stepanova's flexibility, and showcase a series of distinct shapes / the ability to hold acrobatic poses and hit clean shapes. In this program, the lifts are continuously morphing and moving through subtle movements from one shape to another. P&C use their ability to be seamless and smooth to great effect with this approach - since they're not great at acrobatics. S&B are not seamless or so smooth, so it's not working so well IMO. You could say - at least they're trying something new.
This is pretty acrobatic looking to me


Actually the whole lift is not really what I'd call subtle ..


-One of the positions immediately triggered Moonlight Sonata memories for me: https://youtu.be/9C4Sn2yZYoE?t=200
Eh. If you are referring to the program ending lift...This is not the same position, Stepanova's legs and body are positioned quite differently, the mood of the lift isn't the same. P&C's lift is much nicer looking aesthetically and smoother, , but it's not the same lift to me.

S&B have always had clean, strong hand positions that work expressively to good effect with long arm span. But this year it feels they're attempting the much softer approach used by P&C - but it's just looking sloppy. The detail isn't there, the timing isn't there.

-The pace: rather than sharp changes of rhythm they have accustomed us to, the whole program is a continuous progression, a thread from beginning to end. That is also a P&C-championed approach to choreography.
Not sure what you mean by this??

I'm just going to have to agree to disagree because I think 2/3 of this program are really nothing to do with P&C at all stylistically, and the 1/3 doesn't remind me of P&C just because they are skating to softer music.
 

barbarafan

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Available in Canada only...don't know if VPN works.....practice RD. starting nows..group ...Russians not there. USA only..
Group 2 is Cdns Britain and spain.
Men will follow.

 

bcash

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242
Not the same movements... Step/Buk are sharper looking ones
And Pap/Ciz are infinitely more nuanced, folding every note of music into their movement, displaying a vastly more sophisticated combination of pliancy and strength. A former professional ballet dancer acquaintance that year said she was immediately hooked just watching the opening criss-crossing of the arms in P/C's Beethoven program. And it's also telling it was choreographed by a classically trained dancer who also does his own excellent contemporary works. A whole different ball game.

The comparison is only in jest.
 
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