The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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chantilly

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And Pap/Ciz are infinitely more nuanced, folding every note of music into their movement, displaying a vastly more sophisticated combination of pliancy and strength. A former professional ballet dancer acquaintance that year said she was immediately hooked just watching the opening criss-crossing of the arms in P/C's Beethoven program. And it's also telling it was choreographed by a classically trained dancer who also does his own excellent contemporary works. A whole different ball game.

The comparison is only in jest.
🙄
 

cocotaffy

Fetchez la vache... mais fetchez la vache !
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Oh my, this might turn out to be a looooooooooooooooooong season :slinkaway S/B are S/B which is a team I personally never enjoyed since their senior beginning so that has nothing to do with my liking P/C. It grew into an irrational dislike of the attitude they put out there during competition. It rubs me the wrong way but I don't know them personally so this is purely speculation on my part watching them through a screen so basically it means zip, zilch, zero ...
They gonna do what they gonna do to win. However, the dress is too obvious. Frankly, if even a Russian commentator took notice, ditch it. She's stunning and they are plenty of way to look sleek in black choosing another cut. The program well is frankly more enjoyable than their faux sexy extra posey FD last year so I will have a more pleasant time watching them. The RD, I can't even remember it apart from that cheap shot at shocking the audience with the kiss at the end. Last year RD wasn't my cup of tea, but one thing for sure, that Edith Piaf music was somehow very memorable.
People will compare, it's part of the sport. For me, the real Russian competition for P/C stays S/K just because of their SS and speed quality and even if I'm a P/C nutsy, I still grew to really enjoy that team since last season, provided Katsalapov keep it up with his nicer/calmer self. They are gonna give the French a ride for their money imo.
H/D, I'm confused by them. Their SS and speed are undeniable but their performance quality completely changed post-Olympic. I can't enjoy them anymore, there is something cheapened in their interpretation and choice of materials. Don't know if they're trying too hard or they're just lacking creativity but they should be better advised.
The ones I'm more excited about are still C/B who have one of the best set of programs this year and of course FB/S who I always enjoyed and who have a chance to finally make their mark this season. Also the Italians with their fantastic FD, which might become my favorite of the year (after P/C of course :D).
 

Bigbird

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Honestly I don't know how P/C can be even compared with either S/B or S/K, totally different weight class. Enjoy them for what they offer the sport. Years from now the only teams we'll be rewatching are P/C and V/M and for me some W/P and FB/S. Their heirs have not arrived yet. Innovativeness and great talent is unforgettable.
 

PRlady

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None of the lead Russian teams since G/P were stellar stars, although I think Dom/Shabs would have accomplished more without Max’s injury. And who knows what I/K could have been. S/K and S/B have technical competence and/or on-ice charisma but neither is the complete package.

Of course if the standard is V/M and P/C very few teams will qualify.
 

millyskate

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The ones I'm more excited about are still C/B who have one of the best set of programs this year and of course FB/S who I always enjoyed and who have a chance to finally make their mark this season. Also the Italians with their fantastic FD, which might become my favorite of the year (after P/C of course :D).
I do love Chock & Bates' FD this year too. I hope they can skate it confidently during the GP and do well with it.
 

laviemn

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The uber matrix thing, while true, has also become a convenient tool to dismiss and devalue other people's opinions.

Does anyone understand why so much hostility has developed towards H/D in the last year? I don't mean on this board in particular, but among fans on social media. It's definitely a post Olympic development. They were well liked before, and there's been such a swift, extreme turning of the tide that doesn't seem adequately explained by bad programs or a few obnoxious statements from Zach. I don't get it, and the justifications I've read on social media seem so irrational.
 

aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
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The uber matrix thing, while true, has also become a convenient tool to dismiss and devalue other people's opinions.

Does anyone understand why so much hostility has developed towards H/D in the last year? I don't mean on this board in particular, but among fans on social media. It's definitely a post Olympic development. They were well liked before, and there's been such a swift, extreme turning of the tide that doesn't seem adequately explained by bad programs or a few obnoxious statements from Zach. I don't get it, and the justifications I've read on social media seem so irrational.

I’ve been a fan of H/D since the beginning, and they have never been the most popular team. I think at one point, I was one of the five fans they had. That said, it does some like there has been an inexplicable uptick in vitriol towards them. It’s not just not being someone’s cup of tea stuff. It’s almost an active hatred and people wanting and cheering for them to fail. I don’t get it either.
 

Peepsquick

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I think that some fans see last season as one where H/D seemed to loose their way, their own voice, so to speak. Their Olympic season FD was perfect for them and they seemed to be on the ultimate upward curve. Then, last season, they struggled with the theme and material.
For me H/D are strong skaters with a lot of power and they do sultry but also soulful very well. They were often a bit kitschy for my taste but incredibly impressive. I think that they are trying too hard to be V/M's heirs: power, sex appeal and versatility. Imo, they should find their own voice.
There is no good reason in my book to be nasty about it and I hope that their fans find it in their hearts to let them make their own journey. They are a great team!
btw, I am totally frustrated because I have not seen either their RD and FD this season ... so my comments are limited to last season.
 

starrynight

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The uber matrix thing, while true, has also become a convenient tool to dismiss and devalue other people's opinions.

Does anyone understand why so much hostility has developed towards H/D in the last year? I don't mean on this board in particular, but among fans on social media. It's definitely a post Olympic development. They were well liked before, and there's been such a swift, extreme turning of the tide that doesn't seem adequately explained by bad programs or a few obnoxious statements from Zach. I don't get it, and the justifications I've read on social media seem so irrational.

If we're talking uber matrix, I'm going to go full social media style crazy here ha ha ha. I had a good think of what might be happening.

As for the uber matrix, the only thing I might take into account with the social media crowd is that Madison is best friends with Papadakis. There's enough of a reason to get a certain section of the skating fandom off side.

There may be some kind of fatigue about Gadbois skaters ranking at the top and people want things shaken up with some external i.e. Russian skaters in the mix? And Madison Hubbell and Gabi are the poster children for Gadbois.

But being in favour with the social media crowd is very very fickle. And what I've said may sound crazy, but it seems like an answer to me.
 

Peepsquick

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If we're talking uber matrix, I'm going to go full social media style crazy here ha ha ha. I had a good think of what might be happening.

As for the uber matrix, the only thing I might take into account with the social media crowd is that Madison is best friends with Papadakis. There's enough of a reason to get a certain section of the skating fandom off side.

There may be some kind of fatigue about Gadbois skaters ranking at the top and people want things shaken up with some external i.e. Russian skaters in the mix? And Madison Hubbell and Gabi are the poster children for Gadbois.


But being in favour with the social media crowd is very very fickle. And what I've said may sound crazy, but it seems like an answer to me.

You may be right, unfortunately :rolleyes:
 

Gris

Swiss Biologist Wilson Edwards
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I think a lot of new fans on social media (who only got to know there was a thing called figure skating at 2018 Olympics) seemed to consider H/D's Romeo & Juliet program as an imitation to the untouchable V/M. The actual quality of that program & the StaLiB incident & Zach's not so pleasant remarks & being American all didn't help.

Plus, after V/M's retirement, many of their fans took S/B as the next team to uber - and they probably felt that H/D robbed S/B's bronze medal at Worlds.

As for uber matrix, a perfect example is this article. (I believe this has already been posted in an early dance thread but it's too hilarious not to post it again)


:rofl:
 

Bigbird

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Plus, after V/M's retirement, many of their fans took S/B as the next team to uber - and they probably felt that H/D robbed S/B's bronze medal at Worlds.

:rofl:
Er hem, by S/B are you referring to Stepanova and partner? :scream: They are uber material?
 

michalle

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I should have made myself clearer - I meant social media uberdom rather than people on forums like here.

It just seems like such a weird transition but hey to each their own! I'm not against it....just wouldn't have been my first thought that's for sure.
 

marbri

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It just seems like such a weird transition but hey to each their own! I'm not against it....just wouldn't have been my first thought that's for sure.

I would take that with a huge grain of salt. There is no logical movement from one team to the other. And online social media likely refers to a handful of insane people far too invested in fantasies.
 

Gris

Swiss Biologist Wilson Edwards
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714
I would take that with a huge grain of salt. There is no logical movement from one team to the other. And online social media likely refers to a handful of insane people far too invested in fantasies.

Of course they are. But the topic is exactly about why this group of people are throwing irrational hate on H/D so it's not like there's much logical stuff to start with. One 'logical' reason I can think of is that maybe they think S/B show the tension V/M had. And S/B's programs last season, whether you like them or not, did stand out from a sea of lyrical angsty programs.

Anyways I suppose the best method is to avoid social media uberdom all together :lol:
 
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chameleonster

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In general, I've noticed a huge uptick in viciousness in FS fandom in general starting last season, I don't know why. So I would attribute a lot of the H/D hate to their less than stellar vehicles last season that coincided with the new gleefully cruel approach of large portions of social media and made them convenient targets.
 

PRlady

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I’ve been a fan of H/D since the beginning, and they have never been the most popular team. I think at one point, I was one of the five fans they had. That said, it does some like there has been an inexplicable uptick in vitriol towards them. It’s not just not being someone’s cup of tea stuff. It’s almost an active hatred and people wanting and cheering for them to fail. I don’t get it either.

I’m on Twitter but don’t follow much Skating there and didn’t know this. That’s awful.

I’m another of the original five fans.
 

starrynight

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In general, I've noticed a huge uptick in viciousness in FS fandom in general starting last season, I don't know why.

The abuse scandal is why.

I think a lot of new fans on social media (who only got to know there was a thing called figure skating at 2018 Olympics) seemed to consider H/D's Romeo & Juliet program as an imitation to the untouchable V/M. The actual quality of that program & the StaLiB incident & Zach's not so pleasant remarks & being American all didn't help.

Well yes and the new fans only see what is being put down now and don't take into account what happened in the previous quad.

Hubbell/Donohue got a heap of buzz last quad because they left DSC and went to Montreal. This was all in amongst the high social media drama of their off ice split and the whole #poorzach thing. At the same time people were upset that Chock/Bates were winning off the back of getting high levels.

So H/D were really edgy because of the personal drama, they'd shifted to the fashionable coach and then overtook Chock ~Igor will get you the levels~ Bates. There was a lot of buzz about the romantic style programs they did because of the off-ice stuff involving their personal breakup. Gadbois was also a much more exclusive place then and the hype was that entrance = success.

It was a different time. Whereas someone who only started watching this quad would get a totally different impression. Instead it was a cliched R+J program in a plain grey dress etc etc.
 
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chameleonster

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The abuse scandal is why.
The abuse scandal is definitely not why. It may have exacerbated things, but I remember settling in to watch junior dance last season and being shocked and genuinely appalled by the level of vitriol suddenly being flung at very young teams. I'm vaguely aware that that had been happening with ladies singles(which is also terrible, of course), but I definitely noticed a big change after Pyeongchang in general. What I found startling was not just the unkindness of what was being said about teams, but the, hmm, focus of it? Rather than one throwaway insult, various young and/or fairly low ranked teams get criticised with such intensity you would think they were competing for the OGM against fan favorites, instead of trying to make the world team/place 15th at worlds/etc. On twitter at least, the Uber Matrix appears to attack anyone but the three established Good Teams, which change wildly and without warning. I wouldn't take the criticism to heart.
 

starrynight

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If we are talking junior teams then, well, maybe just a symptom of worsening internet culture? Either that or the heightened attention on the junior ladies has bled over into other disciplines. No idea why anyone would bother so much with junior dance - it's a big leap for these teams to be successful at seniors, so there's not as much incentive to get so invested.
 

Colonel Green

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Going into this season I was predicting a real fight between Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen and Hawayek/Baker internationally and between the latter and the various American teams looking to move past them domestically, so I was kind of thrown by the results at Nebelhorn that kind of suggested the fight was over before it had even started (they stayed ahead of Carreira/Ponomarenko there thanks to Anthony's twizzles, but being behind them in the RD with no major errors seemed like the bell tolling for them).

We'll see what happens in the FD tomorrow, of course, but the RD would suggest Hawayek/Baker will put up a fight after all (and Carreira/Ponomarenko's SkAm numbers were underwhelming compared to their Challenger results, even accounting for the RD error).
 

chameleonster

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Personally I've found scores thus far to be quite high(particularly in the RD) and very...all over the place. There's always been some difficulty comparing scores across competitions, of course, but there have been some truly bizarre results, and I can't make any predictions because I don't know if this is the start of a trend or if it's a one off thing. Like Hurtado/Khaliavin being only one point back from Sinitsina/Katsalapov in the Ondrej Nepela RD, or as mentioned about, the somewhat inconsistent results for the American teams. Even taking into account differing performances as well as differing levels of strictness of the panels, there seem to be some fairly hefty swings.
 

laviemn

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In general, I've noticed a huge uptick in viciousness in FS fandom in general starting last season, I don't know why. So I would attribute a lot of the H/D hate to their less than stellar vehicles last season that coincided with the new gleefully cruel approach of large portions of social media and made them convenient targets.

You're absolutely right about it being a general fandom shift that's happening to many skaters. I think why I honed in on H/D is that there seemed to be no obvious reason to target them suddenly. Like with Nathan Chen, we all know why he's gotten an uptick in viciousness in the past year.

Gleeful cruelty is an accurate way to describe the behavior, and I suppose it's partly motivated by social media clout chasing. Why simply say you don't like Madison Hubbell's costume when mocking her (and her mother, in one instance) with Mean Girls nastiness gets you more likes and retweets?

I think there's also a feeling of empowerment in behaving like this for some people, like inverting the fan-celebrity power dynamic in some way.
 

cocotaffy

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I was pleasantly surprised by Gilles/Poirier RD performance yesterday at Skate Canada. I can't say I like this music or the program per say but they skated it extremely well and got the best out of it. Everything was spotless, they truly nailed every single element with speed and attack. I even thought it was much neater than H/D's RD. OTOH, doing back to back GP event with Zach being sick last week must be tough explaining why H/D did skate as well as in Skate America. Madison got even so close to the barrier she nearly fell and their twizzles were wonky. Tbh I would have put G/P ahead of H/D. Now if G/P keep skating fiercely like this all season, FB/S have their work cut out. Let see their FD though because last time it was a snoozefest.
Hawayek and Baker were also impressive yesterday with a score setting them up nicely if they can keep this up in the FD. He was born to do that Austin Powers like Saturday Night fever thing. It's lots of fun to watch.
 

aftershocks

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I enjoyed H/B's RD more this time around. They still skated with pizzazz and full-on commitment, but I wasn't as distracted by Kaitlin's hair -- I'm glad she smoothed down the top of her hair. The music is catchy because it's a standard, well-loved tune from a memorable movie. However, since it's been done before, I would have appreciated seeing them pick something different to sink their blades into, as I said previously.

There's not really much difference iin skill and performance between 6,7,8 places in the RD at this weekend's comp. As well, the top two teams are close in skill, ability and experience, as reflected in the marks. Slightly larger gaps exist between 3,4,5 places...
 

her grace

standing with Mariah
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4,291
H/D, I'm confused by them. Their SS and speed are undeniable but their performance quality completely changed post-Olympic. I can't enjoy them anymore, there is something cheapened in their interpretation and choice of materials. Don't know if they're trying too hard or they're just lacking creativity but they should be better advised.

I agree with this. I have not loved their programs post-Olympics. This year's RD is okay, it's skated very well, but doesn't really connect with me. That said, all the whining about "My Heart Belongs to Daddy" is overwrought--this isn't a social justice competition, the song is just music and not all that different from skating warhorse "Big Spender." Their FD is also okay, but based on Belbin/Agosto's experience, I wouldn't say the judges have shown themselves to be all that appreciative of country or Western themes, and that could hurt them. I don't think H/D are getting credit for their skating quality (edgework, speed, power) vis-a-vis the other teams. They could skate circles around Gilles/Poirier and Stepanova/Bukin in skating skills, but you don't see much differentiation in the marks. Gilles/Porier and Stepanova/Bukin, of course, have other strengths in their programs.

I am impressed with Hawayek/Baker's RD. Baker may be the best American male dancer today. Technically, they looked to be in G/P's league at SC yesterday. Presentation-wise, they can't compete with the very top. It's not a consistent performance. Hawayek gets that look of concentration before difficult elements that breaks the mood. Still think they should easily beat C/P for the world spot.
 

Miloune

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I think a lot of new fans on social media (who only got to know there was a thing called figure skating at 2018 Olympics) seemed to consider H/D's Romeo & Juliet program as an imitation to the untouchable V/M. The actual quality of that program & the StaLiB incident & Zach's not so pleasant remarks & being American all didn't help.

Plus, after V/M's retirement, many of their fans took S/B as the next team to uber - and they probably felt that H/D robbed S/B's bronze medal at Worlds.

As for uber matrix, a perfect example is this article. (I believe this has already been posted in an early dance thread but it's too hilarious not to post it again)


:rofl:

This article is just so ridiculous. People need to chill out in this fandom... 🙄 oh la la...
 
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