The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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deegee said:
this is one of the things that i dislike about p & c's fd this year, too... other than the lifts (including the choreographic lift with the clock arm thingy) and the choreography in the twizzle sequence, it's all side by side skating. they hardly touch each other at all. i get that there's this theme where they don't even look at each other in the face until it says so in the poem (which i've already said i despise), and i get that they are trying to "move the sport forward". however, i having a hard time swallowing forward movement that involves losing complex and difficult holds for the sake of being different. they're hardly face to face at all in this dance :/
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Do you think you’re basically lamenting the changes in the rules for the discipline as a whole? What I mean is that every team is just trying to maximize the score on each element. That’s of course not where Ice Dance was before IJS.

Your critique about loss of face-to-face time or complex holds seems to be a meta discussion. It’s not about what specifically makes up what level in a step sequence or what judges like for the in-betweens.
 
firstflight said:
Do you think you’re basically lamenting the changes in the rules for the discipline as a whole? What I mean is that every team is just trying to maximize the score on each element. That’s of course not where Ice Dance was before IJS.

Your critique about loss of face-to-face time or complex holds seems to be a meta discussion. It’s not about what specifically makes up what level in a step sequence or what judges like for the in-betweens.
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hmmm, well, i don't see this same constant side by side choreography in h & d or s & k's fds this year. they skate together facing each other in hold throughout their respective programs with minimal non-touching side-by-side choreography compared to s & b and p & c. i don't remember many of the other fd's as much yet this season. maybe it is a pattern. but if so, that'll make me sad. one of the things that draws me to french ice dancing (including p & c) has been the complexity of patterns and choreography in variations of difficult holds.
 
I know everyone is talking about Stepanova's absence of skating skills and PCS for S&B vs Hubbell and Donohue, but what about the other program components (transitions, performance, composition and interpretation)?
 
Dobre said:
Meanwhile Papadakis & Cizeron used Oblivion right after Bobrova & Soloviev made a splash with it
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'Oblivion' really is a warhorse, and I truly doubt that P/C's choice of it had anything to do with Bobrova/Soloviev.
Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen are using Hiwatashi's Junior World winning SP music from last season.
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Again, 'Cry me a river' is a very well known song, and I doubt F-B/S even knew about Hiwatashi using it. I think the word 'poaching' is quite unfitting in such cases.
 
lauravvv said:
Again, 'Cry me a river' is a very well known song, and I doubt F-B/S even knew about Hiwatashi using it.
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They were at 4CCs just like I was. If F-B&S weren't in the arena for the men's SP, I'd assume someone from their team was sitting there. He skated right before Nic Nadeau.
 
Dobre said:
They were at 4CCs just like I was. If F-B&S weren't in the arena for the men's SP, I'd assume someone from their team was sitting there. He skated right before Nic Nadeau.
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Sure, but it's really a stretch to suggest that them using the song has anything to do with Tomoki. Nik loves Michael Bublé, and as people have said, it's a really well known song. Tomoki was a junior skater from a different country in a different discipline. And I doubt that's the first time the song has been used in skating anyways. It's not as though everyone was talking about Tomoki skating to that piece of music.

I really don't see how Tomoki is relevant to their program at all. Using it as an example of "poaching" or "questionable choices is really weird.
 
Dobre said:
They were at 4CCs just like I was. If F-B&S weren't in the arena for the men's SP, I'd assume someone from their team was sitting there. He skated right before Nic Nadeau.
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I wouldn't assume that. Coaches and skaters are focused on their own comp, not anyone else's, and usually don't watch other disciplines. At Nats, I occasionally see coaches/skaters in early groups of an event come into the stands to watch the rest of the event, and they may watch events after they are completely finished competing, but IIRC, dance was the last event at 4CC and I would assume that while Hiwatashi was skating, F-B/S and their coaches were either at practice (at the secondary rink), on a shuttle to/from practice, or back at the hotel eating or resting.

I doubt anyone at Gadbois was thinking of Hiwatashi specifically when they picked the music. Plenty of skaters have used it, b/c it works (recognizable beat, mainstream/acceptable to judges) and I assume it's one of many pieces in MFD's music collection.
 
My point was that the difference between the multitude of songs that are reused every season (especially if those songs are used successfully in a different discipline and/or were used at a different age level) probably does not come off to everyone as very different from a senior dance team using Moulin Rouge or a senior pair team using Love Story in Canada. At least not in a negative way. Instead we hear from athletes like Mukhortova & Trankov that it is a nod of respect toward the athletes who initiated the program. (I don't know if that is reality or spin, but there's a pattern of Russian athletes selecting music that is viewed as having been done in an "iconic" manner by top athletes when Russian athletes are going to compete in those athletes' home countries).

It's not unlike hearing from Sui & Han that they really wanted to skate to Turandot. To me, that's such a don't-go-there choice; but not to them. And apparently not to the seemingly thousands of Yamaguchi Malaguena performers and Witt Carmen performers we have watched skate over the years.

I use the term poaching with a touch of humorous irony. Sometimes I see a great program and immediately start thinking someone should use it. (Someone, for example, preferably not a guy in singles, should use Brezina's LP music from last season, IMO. It brought the house down even when he mucked up). When something is used super successfully & in the same discipline, I generally think athletes shouldn't use it. But the reality is that is probably a bit of a cultural reaction, and it doesn't do me any good anyway. I do think it's your job to know where your music came from, to know who has used it to great effect recently, and to know what it is you bring to the table when you use it.
 
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Oh wow I love Step/Buks program. Very cool, and much better to me than last year's program (which I liked, but was more one-note for me). I would love for this to be a break-out year for them. Not as fond of their RD though. I agree with whichever poster was talking recently (there have just been so many posts this week-end, I've lost track of who said what) about the interesting direction Svinin/Zhuk have gone in this year. So far this is the stand-out program of the year for me. Also, I think the cut between the two music pieces is quite seamless which is really shocking given how disparate they look on paper.
 
Timberlake's Cry Me a River sounds so much cooler than Buble's. (or maybe it's just the effect of overexposure of Buble's version) I think S/B made a good decision. The FD feels pretty sleek and modern, without too much unnecessary theatrics.

Only saw the programs once and still don't feel they should be threatening H/D skating-wise. I don't know if this is a sign that the judges are ready to move on from H/D.
 
H/D's program was confusing for me. I like Shallow but didn't quite get why the other song was in there - just to pad out the length? It looks like Shallow in full is 3:37 so it's just short of the four minutes that I think are required for a free dance. They need a tempo change (I thiiiiink?) but does it have to come from a second piece? Even if they need a second piece, the placement of it was a little weird for me. But at the same time, I could see the quality of what they were doing in a lot of ways but I didn't really enjoy it. I was trying to figure out why, and realized that for me the program felt more like a "show" program, regardless of its actual difficulty.

I wonder whether it was too soon to use that music because I didn't really get the characterization/relationship between them they were going for - it didn't seem like the one from the movie (which of course it doesn't have to be, but that's where the too soon part comes in, the movie is still so recent that it's extra hard to separate the music from it, especially with the way the program opens) but I didn't totally get what it was meant to be instead.

Watched S/E's program as well, enjoyed it but not sure what their costumes were going for! For me, I liked last year's a tiny bit better, but I thought this was a great senior debut. The Spanish commentators were like "gran futuro" and I was like "si!" Z/G's program I think got mixed reviews here, but I really liked it! I don't remember last year's program that well since they didn't end up doing Euros/Worlds but I thought this had that show program quality too but in a good way, the highlight moves seemed really well timed to the music. Maybe since I'm old I just will always associate programs to well known songs with lyrics with show skating or something.
 
firstflight said:
He put his hand down right after the choreographed slide move while trying to get up.
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I thought the rule is that the skaters can touch the ice during the choreo slide, so that if they stumbled and put their hands down accidentally during the element, it's a loss of GOE but not considered a fall?

muffinplus said:
I know everyone is talking about Stepanova's absence of skating skills and PCS for S&B vs Hubbell and Donohue, but what about the other program components (transitions, performance, composition and interpretation)?
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I'd give S/B the edge in composition and the other components to H/D. They have a more cohesive FD, with better music edits, that builds in a more logical and organic way. But they were not as competition ready as H/D technically or in performance quality. H/D should have a bigger lead in skating skills; I will repeat this every time S/B beats H/D until it's no longer true.

Dobre said:
I do think it's your job to know where your music came from, to know who has used it to great effect recently, and to know what it is you bring to the table when you use it.
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Maybe Gadbois did consider Hiwatashi's program and decided that the number of fans who would make a comparison to FB/S's FD was so small that it was a non-issue. And they'd be right. I didn't see any mention of him in relation to this FD on various platforms other than your post. In fact, your post is how I found out Hiwatashi skated to this song because I don't watch juniors.

I also think there are a lot of fans who are primarily singles fans and hardly watch ice dance at all, which makes a difference in how music choices are perceived across the skating audience. Aliev skating to Build a Home didn't garner the same ??? that the Parsons did.

I actually agree with your main point but I think there's a much more limited range of situations where it actually matters. Specifically a skater choosing the same music that won a gold medal recently in their discipline, or made a huge audience impact recently in their discipline. I don't think the FB/S > Hiwatashi or the Agafanova & Ucar > Bobrova & Soloviev > Papadakis & Cizeron examples resulted in anywhere near enough comparisons to make the coaches question their choices.
 
laviemn said:
I'd give S/B the edge in composition and the other components to H/D. They have a more cohesive FD, with better music edits, that builds in a more logical and organic way. But they were not as competition ready as H/D technically or in performance quality. H/D should have a bigger lead in skating skills; I will repeat this every time S/B beats H/D until it's no longer true.
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It's just that I see comments that PCS between these 2 shouldn't be close because of skating skills.. but the other 4 components are quite a bit more subjective.
 
bcash said:
Timberlake's Cry Me a River sounds so much cooler than Buble's. (or maybe it's just the effect of overexposure of Buble's version) I think S/B made a good decision. The FD feels pretty sleek and modern, without too much unnecessary theatrics.

Only saw the programs once and still don't feel they should be threatening H/D skating-wise. I don't know if this is a sign that the judges are ready to move on from H/D.
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Just to clarify, they are completely different songs with the same name and similar themes.
 
I agree with Michalle about Svinin&Zhuk's choreography who is making its own way on their own path.
Interesting and appropriate to their skaters.
True said skaters lack in Skating Skills, but the other parts are amazingly good.

And I say it again. I would be very edgy if I were H&Donohue. Losing the FD at home, with a team that is just out of injury and lacked at least 3 weeks of training this season, is not good news.
Like Michalle, I don't get that FD at all. It's both too much and too little in about everything. The only thing I liked were the costumes.
 
H/D were also skating with Zach having bronchitis and reportedly having a, uh, delicate stomach backstage during the FD.

They lost the FD by 0.08, which is less than the 0.2 V/M lost the FD by to Chock/Bates on home ice at Skate Canada in 2016. V/M then went on to beat P/C by almost 10 points at NHK, win the GPF finally, and culminated the season with their third world title. I think it’s too early to make proclamations of doom about H/D. It’s early days for this season, their first competition this year, and Zach was sick.
 
Dobre said:
What's a clear separation? A certain number of spots at Worlds?
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Not sure. I guess I just thought that at this point, after their good result at the Olympics and worlds last season, H/K would have moved in front more stably. Like how W/P were continually in front of G/P. But S/D got their score spike this season so it’s hard to tell again.
 
laviemn said:
I thought the rule is that the skaters can touch the ice during the choreo slide, so that if they stumbled and put their hands down accidentally during the element, it's a loss of GOE but not considered a fall?
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They are allowed to put the weight on their hands and knees during the choreographic sliding movement, but it has to be "controlled." Any uncontrolled weight transfer where hands or knees are on the ice is considered a fall, even during the choreographic slide.

The panel actually debated what to do with this for a bit. They watched it at least 4 times (the panels mostly only replay an element once for most reviews), and there was alot of discussion between Hurth and Higashino (Rey more or less let the ladies take over) over how to call it. From what I could tell, they were debating whether or not the balance check with his hand was part of the sliding movement, or if it occurred after the sliding movement ended. They settled on the "fall" happening between the choreographic slide and choreographic steps, which was the least punitive to L&L-G.
 
MarieM said:
And I say it again. I would be very edgy if I were H&Donohue. Losing the FD at home, with a team that is just out of injury and lacked at least 3 weeks of training this season, is not good news.
Like Michalle, I don't get that FD at all. It's both too much and too little in about everything. The only thing I liked were the costumes.
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THIS, so much THIS. The expressions are so OTT, but lacking in any genuine and real feeling. They're missing that "it", that spark that they used to have, where they would do something cool and edgy and we would believe it. They don't do commercial well at all, and that's what this feels like. They used to be HBO, but now they're becoming more and more Hallmark with their programs.
 

Recap: 2019 Skate America – Ice-dance.com

www.ice-dance.com www.ice-dance.com

Hubbell & Donohue opened with “My Heart Belongs to Daddy” performed by Marilyn Monroe followed by “Let’s Be Bad”, from Smash, a musical based on her iconic life. They scored a personal best 84.97.

The opening song was a piece the couple found five years ago, but their coaches didn’t think it was right for them at the time At the beginning of the season, they played with a few concepts, but it was choreographer, Romain Haguenauer, who stepped in and said Hubbell had to play Marilyn Monroe.

“I was happy because I always dreamed of portraying her,” Hubbell conveyed during the press conference.
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First Romeo & Juliet, now My Heart Belongs to Daddy. Madison and Zach, perhaps it's time to turn to someone other than Romain for program ideas next season.
 
Gris said:

Recap: 2019 Skate America – Ice-dance.com

www.ice-dance.com www.ice-dance.com



First Romeo & Juliet, now My Heart Belongs to Daddy. Madison and Zach, perhaps it's time to turn to someone other than Romain for program ideas next season.
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Well, playing Marilyn Monroe is not the problem with the program. That song is the problem. I said this in the US Dance thread and it bears repeating here - they should have utilized a couple of other songs from the "Smash" soundtrack for the first two sections. My suggestions would be "National Pasttime" - plenty of innuendo without the cringe factor of "My Heart Belongs to Daddy" for the first section, then the 1st or 2nd verse of "They Just Keep Moving the Line" for the slow section before seguing into "Let's Be Bad." It is wildly disconcerting to go from Marilyn Monroe singing to Megan Hilty imitating Marilyn's breathy tone but doing a much better job because she is a trained vocalist, and that's not even getting into the grossness of the lyrics of "Daddy".
 
I would be 100% for an all Smash compilation. One of the things I dislike about Monroe is her less than spectacular singing.

firstflight said:
Not sure. I guess I just thought that at this point, after their good result at the Olympics and worlds last season, H/K would have moved in front more stably. Like how W/P were continually in front of G/P. But S/D got their score spike this season so it’s hard to tell again.
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I don't think we know if Hurtado & Khaliavin have or not. For that to happen, you have to go head-to-head over a period of time. (H&K haven't had a totally clean FD performance yet, as the lift imploded at Nepela and the twizzles fizzled in Minsk). Smart & Diaz's scores have varied quite wildly based on whether or not they had obvious mistakes. They've competed 5 times thus far this season, I believe? (Lake Placid, Montreal, Autumn Classic, Nebelhorn, & SA). And SA was definitely the best, I think.
 
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