The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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RoseRed said:
FB/S have been with them for ages.
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They're one team. Look at how some of the other teams that have been with them for ages are doing with it. A handful of their teams are successful with it, but a lot of others are struggling.
 
Wyliefan said:
They're one team. Look at how some of the other teams that have been with them for ages are doing with it. A handful of their teams are successful with it, but a lot of others are struggling.
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Well, not all their teams are at the same level of talent and basics. That's pretty normal in a big school. Not everyone can get level 4s no matter how hard they work.
 
Wyliefan said:
Can we talk about why Gadbois cannot teach a pattern? (Leaving aside, of course, those who came to them already good at patterns.) You'd think it would be a fairly important thing to teach! I know it's not the only element that counts, but it does count for something. I'm thinking for instance of my uberees S/F, who are going to remain forever stuck in the low 70s in the short if they cannot fix their pattern. Their lifts score great, their twizzles score well, everything is hunky-dory except that pattern. Even if their coaches do have 12,945,237 other teams, you'd think they'd still want to help them fix what's holding them back. Especially since a significant percentage of that 12,945,237 is also being held back by it.
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Maybe it's a particular problem for S/F. Each pattern is going to suit some teams more than others.

A number of Gadbois teams are getter better levels on the pattern than they were at this point last year, including mid-ranked teams. They coach half the teams in the sport who are of varying abilities so of course they're not all going do equally as well.

Speaking of which, considering all bandwidth and angst expended over high GOEs awarded to lowel level patterns last season, I'm surprised there's no criticism of S/B getting the same exact GOE for their level 2 pattern as H/D got for their level 4. You don't even need to know any of the correct steps of the Finnstep to see that H/D skated it a hell of a lot better.
 
This is a new season and a different pattern. I think it's fair to wait & see how things shake out.

Wyliefan said:
I'm thinking for instance of my uberees S/F, who are going to remain forever stuck in the low 70s in the short if they cannot fix their pattern.
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Which is why I would advise against ubering teams composed of athletes that never got to the top in juniors. It is frigging tough enough ubering the junior athletes that get to the top!
 
What do people think of S&B's tactics?
I must admit I've been a bit taken by surprise - an RD to Moulin Rouge so soon after V&M and an FD that appears to me to be channelling P&C. I've been wondering if someone in their team has been wanting to send the subconscious message to the judges that they are on that level. Or maybe I'm just overthinking. Am I the only one to have had that thought?

The RD is playing to their dramatic & flamboyant style and although I'm not a big Moulin Rouge fan, it kind of works I guess. I still wouldn't have chosen a piece of music/theme performed iconically so recently.

The FD really has me stumped. First they chose Einaudi - atmospheric minimalistic piano music that is strongly associated with P&C stylistically. Even the Russian commentator mused at how Stepanova's dress was essentially a black version of Gabriella's blue one. And it's the choreography - long strokes and fluid, which doesn't really play to their strengths: I'd consider those to be energy & extroverted intensity, acrobatic lifts and crazy twizzles.
This program just seems to highlight how much better the French are at transitioning in and out of the elements smoothly IMO as every transition seems jerky to me. The facial expressions and hand/arm movements don't quite have the detail and refinement to work in this style.

I'm torn because I do like this team for their chemistry & performance quality. I think their programs last year played to their strengths better though.
 
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millyskate said:
What do people think of S&B's tactics?
I must admit I've been a bit taken by surprise - an RD to Moulin Rouge so soon after V&M and an FD that appears to me to be channelling P&C. I've been wondering if someone in their team has been wanting to send the subconscious message to the judges that they are on that level. Or maybe I'm just overthinking. Am I the only one to have had that thought?

The RD is playing to their dramatic & flamboyant style and although I'm not a big Moulin Rouge fan, it kind of works I guess. I still wouldn't have chosen a piece of music performed iconically so recently.

The FD really has me stumped. First they chose Einaudi - atmospheric minimalistic piano music that is strongly associated with P&C stylistically. Even the Russian commentator mused at how Stepanova's dress was essentially a black version of Gabriella's blue one. And it's the choreography - long strokes and fluid, which doesn't really play to their strengths: I'd consider those to be energy & extroverted intensity, acrobatic lifts and crazy twizzles.
This program just seems to highlight how much better the French are at transitioning in and out of the elements smoothly IMO as every transition seems jerky to me. The facial expressions and hand/arm movements don't quite have the detail and refinement to work in this style.

I'm torn because I do like this team for their chemistry & performance quality. I think their programs last year played to their strengths better though.
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Well, I certainly associate Moulin Rouge with V/M, but it's not like S/B are actually using any of the same music pieces - just music from the same source.
 
millyskate said:
What do people think of S&B's tactics?
I must admit I've been a bit taken by surprise - an RD to Moulin Rouge so soon after V&M and an FD that appears to me to be channelling P&C. I've been wondering if someone in their team has been wanting to send the subconscious message to the judges that they are on that level. Or maybe I'm just overthinking. Am I the only one to have had that thought?

The RD is playing to their dramatic & flamboyant style and although I'm not a big Moulin Rouge fan, it kind of works I guess. I still wouldn't have chosen a piece of music performed iconically so recently.

The FD really has me stumped. First they chose Einaudi - atmospheric minimalistic piano music that is strongly associated with P&C stylistically. Even the Russian commentator mused at how Stepanova's dress was essentially a black version of Gabriella's blue one. And it's the choreography - long strokes and fluid, which doesn't really play to their strengths: I'd consider those to be energy & extroverted intensity, acrobatic lifts and crazy twizzles.
This program just seems to highlight how much better the French are at transitioning in and out of the elements smoothly IMO as every transition seems jerky to me. The facial expressions and hand/arm movements don't quite have the detail and refinement to work in this style.

I'm torn because I do like this team for their chemistry & performance quality. I think their programs last year played to their strengths better though.
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You really can't blame S/B. This move is bigger than them. They are not really following P/C but rather S/K who have imitated P/C to great success. So as the saying goes if you know you can't beat them, join them. That's it. As for Stepanova's dress, I thought it would have gotten a costume deduction for indecent exposure. It really was a bit much being mooned for the entire program. But if they think that's one of their trump cards, I guess they'll flaunt it, right?
 
RoseRed said:
Well, I certainly associate Moulin Rouge with V/M, but it's not like S/B are actually using any of the same music pieces - just music from the same source.
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Yes, I'd edited my post before I saw yours - it's different cuts to the same theme. The same extracts would have been a bit much!
 
I don't think the FD looks anything like P&C. As I commented in the play-by-play thread, it looks to me like the Svinin & Zhuk coaching team is going with a lot of modern, sharp-looking programs. Shanaeva & Narizhnyy and Shevchenko & Eremenko's programs are the same. I think it's kind of great! We all know those athletes had to plow through the same you-should-use-something-proven-to-win-gold-and-truly-great Russian feedback that Liza and all the other Russian athletes always have to go through.

millyskate said:
What do people think of S&B's tactics?
I must admit I've been a bit taken by surprise - an RD to Moulin Rouge so soon after V&M . . .
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We see Russian athletes do this--skate to music that was used to win by top athletes from countries where they are going to compete. In the same discipline. The most comparable example springing to the top of my brain is Mukhortova & Trankov's Love Story for Vancouver. Also Grishuk & Platov's using Fred & Ginger for Worlds in Great Britain right after Torvill & Dean's. I think it's probably a bit of a cultural thing, in that it probably doesn't have the same negative stigma in Russia that it automatically has to me.

I mean, U.S. & Canadian athletes are super guilty of using War Horse music. It's probably a matter of cultural nuance to explain why this feels different. (Meanwhile Papadakis & Cizeron used Oblivion right after Bobrova & Soloviev made a splash with it, B&S having already poached part of their music from Agafanova & Ucar. Gabby is skating to Loena's breakthrough piece from last year. Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen are using Hiwatashi's Junior World winning SP music from last season. The Parsons used To Build a Home. Anissina & Peizerat poached Silverstein & Pekarak's OD music mid-season. I mean . . . plenty of poaching & questionable choices exist in this sport. It's really about what works for the athletes, even if that means I am doomed to envision Tomoki's choreo every time F-B&S skate).
 
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Oh, I also wanted to comment that I think it's interesting we have somewhere between seven and twelve 42nd Streets (Cappellini & Lanotte's World gold medal Finnstep, also Weaver & Poje's World silver medal Finnstep). But zero My Fair Ladys.

My best guess being that people do not want that comparison on the steps with Davis & White.
 
millyskate said:
The FD really has me stumped. First they chose Einaudi - atmospheric minimalistic piano music that is strongly associated with P&C stylistically.
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Do you know how many skaters have chosen Einaudi lately? It has nothing to do with P&C (who never skated to it)

Gosh, Hubbell & Donohue's program is just tacky and overemoted :scream: Though they have some very complex looking transitions

Shevchenko & Eremenko had the most interesting FD of the competition, I think
 
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muffinplus said:
Do you know how many skaters have chosen Einaudi lately? It has literally nothing to do with P&C (who never skated to it)
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It's not the composer, just the style / instrumentation.

Dobre said:
I don't think the FD looks anything like P&C. As I commented in the play-by-play thread, it looks to me like the Svinin & Zhuk coaching team is going with a lot of modern, sharp-looking programs. Shanaeva & Narizhnyy and Shevchenko & Eremenko's programs are the same. I think it's kind of great! We all know those athletes had to plow through the same you-should-use-something-proven-to-win-gold-and-truly-great Russian feedback that Liza and all the other Russian athletes always have to go through.



We see Russian athletes do this--skate to music that was used to win by top athletes from countries where they are going to compete. In the same discipline. The most comparable example springing to the top of my brain is Mukhortova & Trankov's Love Story for Vancouver. Also Grishuk & Platov's using Fred & Ginger for Worlds in Great Britain right after Torvill & Dean's. I think it's probably a bit of a cultural thing, in that it probably doesn't have the same negative stigma in Russia that it automatically has to me.

I mean, U.S. & Canadian athletes are super guilty of using War Horse music. It's probably a matter of cultural nuance to explain why this feels different. (Meanwhile Papadakis & Cizeron used Oblivion right after Bobrova & Soloviev made a splash with it, B&S having already poached part of their music from Agafanova & Ucar. Gabby is skating to Loena's breakthrough piece from last year. Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen are using Hiwatashi's Junior World winning SP music from last season. The Parsons used To Build a Home. Anissina & Peizerat poached Silverstein & Pekarak's RD music mid-season. I mean . . . plenty of poaching & questionable choices exist in this sport. It's really about what works for the athletes, even if that means I am doomed to envision Tomoki's choreo ever time F-B&S skate).
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You make a lot of good points but I would still disagree about the FD - although there are choreographic similarities to the teams you mention, only S&B's styling is reminding me of the French's approach because precisely it isn't sharp. The French chose detail and nuance over "sharp", but to me S&B are doing the fluidity and lack of sharpness without the detail here. And with Justin Timberlake, sharp is exactly what one would expect.

Bigbird said:
You really can't blame S/B. This move is bigger than them. They are not really following P/C but rather S/K who have imitated P/C to great success. So as the saying goes if you know you can't beat them, join them. That's it. As for Stepanova's dress, I thought it would have gotten a costume deduction for indecent exposure. It really was a bit much being mooned for the entire program. But if they think that's one of their trump cards, I guess they'll flaunt it, right?
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Interesting take re: S/K.
 
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Dobre said:
This is a new season and a different pattern. I think it's fair to wait & see how things shake out.



Which is why I would advise against ubering teams composed of athletes that never got to the top in juniors. It is frigging tough enough ubering the junior athletes that get to the top!
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S/F weren't together as juniors. ¯\(ツ)/¯ Anyway, as we all know, the uberness chooses you. :lol: And as I said, the rest of their elements are looking pretty darn good.

Besides, as we've seen before, junior success guarantees precisely nothing when teams move to the senior level.
 
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SkAm was a bit of a setback for Carreira/Ponomarenko's campaign to be US #3, I think (especially unfortunate for them since this Grand Prix season presented a bit of an opportunity with McNamara/Carpenter temporarily out of commission).
 
I don't think S/B are necessarily copying anyone - both Moulin Rouge and Einaudi are already warhorse material and warhorse gonna warhorse. However, I didn't see much sharpness in their FD either while I saw plenty in Shevchenko / Eremenko's FD.

BTW, has anyone watched Minsk CS? Just found out that Morozov / Bagin managed to have higher TES than H/K in RD despite lower levels :eek:

Protocol
 
Gris said:
BTW, has anyone watched Minsk CS? Just found out that Morozov / Bagin managed to have higher TES than H/K in RD despite lower levels
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Yes, I did watch it. Pretty much everyone was a hot mess in the FD & the scores throughout the event were . . . high, IMO. The SB list wasn't opening for me this weekend, but I think maybe 90% of the teams had an SB during the RD in Minsk. In the free, Sara mucked up two sets of twizzles. Bagin also has his foot down during theirs. Nazarova & Nikitin imploded an element--rotational lift, maybe?--right at the end. Kaliszek & Spodyriev mucked up off the top--maybe just a transition as there didn't seem to be time for them to have done more. There always seems to be one high scoring CS in Eastern Europe and this one appears to have been vying for the position, though those FD mistakes cut into the potential marks.
 
Bigbird said:
You really can't blame S/B. This move is bigger than them. They are not really following P/C but rather S/K who have imitated P/C to great success. So as the saying goes if you know you can't beat them, join them. That's it. As for Stepanova's dress, I thought it would have gotten a costume deduction for indecent exposure. It really was a bit much being mooned for the entire program. But if they think that's one of their trump cards, I guess they'll flaunt it, right?
Click to expand...

I have to say...this is really a exaggeration if you thought you were "mooned" for the entire program and then to attribute accidentally indecent exposure that they may have had as a "trump card" as way to gain more points. Over and beyond the fact that it's ice dance where costumes are generally not very conservative (and her dress really wasn't anything scandalous IMHO) accidentally exposure can happen to anyone as we all well know. I'm fairly sure they were out there focused on getting through two programs after a injury with minimal training rather than gaining more points by "mooning" the judges.
 
Gris said:
BTW, has anyone watched Minsk CS? Just found out that Morozov / Bagin managed to have higher TES than H/K in RD despite lower levels :eek:
Click to expand...

Speaking of them, I was surprised at how much I liked their FD and was expecting them to be 2nd, but the judges didn't, and they got 2.00 in deductions for music violations? For what?
 
casken said:
Speaking of them, I was surprised at how much I liked their FD and was expecting them to be 2nd, but the judges didn't, and they got 2.00 in deductions for music violations? For what?
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I don't know. Perhaps someone who liked the program would be kind enough to go back & rewatch it to see if there is a strong enough tempo change between the two different footwork sequences and a clear enough beat?:saint:
 
casken said:
Speaking of them, I was surprised at how much I liked their FD and was expecting them to be 2nd, but the judges didn't, and they got 2.00 in deductions for music violations? For what?
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Dobre said:
I don't know. Perhaps someone who liked the program would be kind enough to go back & rewatch it to see if there is a strong enough tempo change between the two different footwork sequences and a clear enough beat?:saint:
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I just watched (for the first time :saint: ) and have no idea about the music violation deduction. It's a nice program for them.

And... Does anyone know why Lauriault / Le Gac received deductions for two falls? I thought there was only one fall from Marie-Jade.

Protocols
 
The two Spanish teams are just never going to be get clear separation, are they? Now both are easily in the mid 70’s for the RD and the 110’s for the FD. Granted the scoring was loose in Minsk, but H/K cleared 111 at Nepela. The spike in scores this season that multiple teams have seen (W/L, F-B/S, etc) is also happening for both these teams in the same season.
 
i like that fd on s & b although just as in the past with these two, there's about 3 whole seconds of closed hold in the entire 4 and half minutes. and i love her dress, wedgie and all ahahha
 
this is one of the things that i dislike about p & c's fd this year, too... other than the lifts (including the choreographic lift with the clock arm thingy) and the choreography in the twizzle sequence, it's all side by side skating. they hardly touch each other at all. i get that there's this theme where they don't even look at each other in the face until it says so in the poem (which i've already said i despise), and i get that they are trying to "move the sport forward". however, i having a hard time swallowing forward movement that involves losing complex and difficult holds for the sake of being different. they're hardly face to face at all in this dance :/
 
elisa_p said:
I have to say...this is really a exaggeration if you thought you were "mooned" for the entire program and then to attribute accidentally indecent exposure that they may have had as a "trump card" as way to gain more points. Over and beyond the fact that it's ice dance where costumes are generally not very conservative (and her dress really wasn't anything scandalous IMHO) accidentally exposure can happen to anyone as we all well know. I'm fairly sure they were out there focused on getting through two programs after a injury with minimal training rather than gaining more points by "mooning" the judges.
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We are talking about Stepanova, right?
 
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