The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

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Technical Controller Mr. David MOLINA FRA
Technical Specialist Ms. Ayako HIGASHINO JPN
Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Denis SAMOKHIN RUS

Uh oh....RUS on the tech panel. RUS is also on the 9-person judge panel.

USA and CAN have no judges. No North American on tech panel either. Hmm.... :(
 
From the ice-dance.com interview with the Canadanes:
LFB: What we heard at 4CC is actually that half of the pattern will likely be a Finnstep, and apparently that’s what they said at Europeans too. They had said they might remove the compulsory dances, but 90% of the figure skating community and coaches didn’t like it. They said we need pattern dances, so they try to implement back the Finnstep, but it’s only half a pattern so it’s not going to take much time, and then we would continue with our own style, and create our own partial step sequence.
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https://www.ice-dance.com/site/fournier-beaudry-sorensen-forge-a-new-path/
 
shuilee said:
Technical Controller Mr. David MOLINA FRA
Technical Specialist Ms. Ayako HIGASHINO JPN
Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Denis SAMOKHIN RUS

Uh oh....RUS on the tech panel. RUS is also on the 9-person judge panel.

USA and CAN have no judges. No North American on tech panel either. Hmm.... :(
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As far as the tech panel goes, it’s not like Hubbell and Donohue have been winning on levels this season. They’ve moreso been winning in spite of levels.
 
shuilee said:
Technical Controller Mr. David MOLINA FRA
Technical Specialist Ms. Ayako HIGASHINO JPN
Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Denis SAMOKHIN RUS

Uh oh....RUS on the tech panel. RUS is also on the 9-person judge panel.

USA and CAN have no judges. No North American on tech panel either. Hmm.... :(
Click to expand...


It will not matter that much he's the assistant technical specialist. Although when the competition is this tight neither the French or the Russians should be on the panel, but it is what it is.

BOTOH, I think the real power lies with the Japanese and French. The Japanese are neutral and the French have no one to fear but themselves.
 
MatchTV did a very interesting interview with Dmitry Vasin, dancer and choreographer, 2018 World Champion in Argentine tango.
He talked about his work with Sinitsina/Kasalapov (he choreographed their RD) and shared his opinion on some top couples tangos (P/C, S/B, G/F, G/P).

About SinKats:
Having worked with Nikita, I can say that he is one of the most confident partners, who takes the leading role with full responsibility. That is why Sagdiana and I (Sagdiana Khamzina - Dmity's partner) added some difficult risky steps to the choreo. For example, gancho, baléo - figures where the legs intersect. This is especially difficult to do on the ice - it is also dangerous. If the partners do not coincide a bit in timing, you can catch on skates and get injured.
At the very first lesson we noticed that the guys have good contact. Vika is ready to give control to him, despite the fact that she is very independent herself. This is extremely important.
I like their role setting “man and woman”, it is very correct for tango - the way he looks at her. In my opinion, if a man "does not eat" a woman during the dance in tango, he doesn't dance with her. For me, the way Nikita looks at Victoria does a lot of dance.
- How long did the choreography take?
- To be honest, first 2 hours. We collected a few short variations, they did them. We immediately recorded the video and put it on Instagram at the very first lesson. Then we met and 'cleaned' the choreo several times. Further several times we have seen them on the ice. In total, it took about 6 hours.

Then they started watching video from Russian Nationals, there are some gifs in the original article

- Now here will be that step sequence with the gancho - overlapping legs. Traditional figure in tango. I'm glad we used it. If we make a tango on the ice, we must try the appropriate steps, although some of them are risky.
- Here is another figure - cadena.
- Here was the sentada - when the female partner is sitting on the partner's thigh.
- I don't really understand the rest of the things (ice dance elements), but they the tango part brilliantly. When you want to look only at the dancers feet - this isn't a real tango. If you are looking on the whole picture - legs, faces, touches - the tango catches you. Vika and Nikita have it.
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Papadakis/Cizeron:
She has an original tango dress, I like his beard - everything is as it should be (laughs). From the first bets - a good selection of music, Piazzolla. But if we are talking about tango, I would put a suit on the partner. It would give a better image. The position of their hands is closer to the European, ballroom tango. Highly set elbows, strongly open hands. This is what we took away from Nikita, because such position pushes the partner out, does not allow her to get closer to the man.
Here they made a sakada (steps in which one of the partners invades the space of the other, displacing his leg. This often leads to the fact that the partner’s free leg describes an arc along the floor. - “Match TV”).

Also, I want to say that step sequence [non touching] is , of course, correct in terms of dancing on the ice. In the Argentine tango we don't allow such moments to the public, they more closed within the "partner - partner" connection. The female partner should have contact with her partner, not with the public. And here the lady obviously works for the audience and the judges. I would like to make it more intimate. [ this is more like a general comment, not only about P/C]
Excellent position at the end. They started with lip-to-lip contact, they also finished lip-to-lip, but in the dance itself I lacked a little connection.

As for the tango figures, there was a sakada, there was a two-foot jump - very beautiful. If they put their hands a little lower for more contact, add more closure to each other in parallel moments - it would be great. Such a performance would be appreciated by teachers and judges of Argentine tango around the world.
Otherwise, in terms of technique, it was good.
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About Stepanova/Bukin:
Pasodoble and tango - a good mix. His suit corresponds to the theme of pasodoble - excellent.
(Dmitry attentively follows the dance, almost without any comments. After the final pose, he begins to speak.)
Bright couple, a strong one. But I didn’t really notice the difference between paso and tango in terms of emotions/interpretation. They failed, in my opinion, to switch from one theme to another. Maybe it happened because they selected similar compositions (in terms of character).
For me it turned out like 2 pasodobles, which, by the way, they did great. The only thing that has changed a bit with the change of music - was the position of their hands. They chose a non-traditional tango and didn't do any tango figures.

Partners continued to fight with each other during the dance - a mystery, for what they were fighting. Only they know what their story is. At the same time, tango doesn't mean that people must love each other in the middle of the dance, not at all. There's also could be a tango of raging passion. For me there wasn't enough dance figures. If you chose this dance - make up your mind, try, experiment with tango steps and figures.
But this couple is very cool. Both are beautiful, musical, charismatic. I don’t even know if I could do their lift myself. But it was precisely the tango that I lacked. You said that they the dance was choreographed by the ice-dance choreographer who does not specialize in tango? This affects the style of the program, of course. Still, I liked Alexander and Ivan.
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Guinard/Fabbri:
Her hairstyle is authentic, immediately sets the atmosphere. The start is very good, great !!! A helicopter with a sakada back - the partner threw two legs, we call it “Crazy Legs”. There is such a professional joke that at this moment it is possible for a partner to throw vegetables at her feet, and she will cut salad. The guys did it, and very well. She went to the back of sakada - when the partner goes back and knocks out the partner's leg.
Her hairstyle, his suspenders - it all reminds me of an authentic version of the tango from the 30s-40s. There is such a moment, called cadencia - body inclination. The Italian couple does it, and it is very suitable for their style. And the music works for them. There is something in it.
- Very emotional girl. In tango, I wouldn't give that much emotions, I guess. Here, as Stanislavsky says - I do not believe it. If she did it a little more naturally - it would be better for the dance. But I don't really know, maybe that's how it is done in ice dancing?

- I absolutely liked their cadencia, subtly and matches the music. But then her emotions embarrassed me a little bit. Perhaps it was just at this event, and at other competitions she controls her emotions better.
In general, the couple is just beautiful.
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Gilles/Poirier
Oh, what a dress. And how nice that he is in a suit. In terms of images, couples where the man is dressed in a suit look the best. Tango requires it. The shirt is also possible, but with suspenders, like in Italian team. Her big flower in her hair is a tribute to tango as a dance in a red dress with a rose in her teeth (smiles).
Beautiful sentada - the girl sat on his thigh.
Good music selection.
I really liked their gancho. And the way she let go of her hands!

- They have such moments, if you noticed, when the partner throws her legs back, she flies somewhere, but for some reason she does it in the direction of the movement. The energy and speed that an element gives falls. We usually do it in an opposite way in tango. I move to the right, the girl remains on the left, and this reverse movement gives the sharpness.

Here, Paul moves to the right, Piper throws her legs to the right - he disrupts her power, energy, it almost drops. Such a performance at the World Championships in tango on the floor wouldn't be very well appreciated. They have great ideas, suitable figures, and if they did these moves in an opposite way, it would look much stronger.

These guys have a lot of good attempts to do tango. I would have makes them skate closer to each other, removed some art that is present in their choreo. Would add more naturalness to the choreography, so we could feel that spark. Then we would see not just two great dancers, who make difficult things with their feet, but a dancing couple or even just a couple - a man and a woman. For example, he wants to kiss her, and she slips away from him all the time. This would be some kind of game.
With the exception of few moments - great couple, I liked them. In general, we had a very good tango collection today.
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Ka3sha said:
MatchTV did a very interesting interview with Dmitry Vasin, dancer and choreographer, 2018 World Champion in Argentine tango.
He talked about his work with Sinitsina/Kasalapov (he choreographed their RD) and shared his opinion on some top couples tangos (P/C, S/B, G/F, G/P).

About SinKats:


Papadakis/Cizeron:


About Stepanova/Bukin:


Guinard/Fabbri:


Gilles/Poirier
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I'd like to hear what he thinks of Smart and Diaz. They have IMHO, one of the better tangos of the season, as well :).
 
Bigbird said:
I'd like to hear what he thinks of Smart and Diaz. They have IMHO, one of the better tangos of the season, as well :).
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Yeah, I like their RD too.
Also, it would have been interesting to hear his thoughts on W/P, C/B and H/D but they probably didn’t have enough time to do it.
 
barbarafan said:
I guess they are running out of gimmicks.
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Jackie Wong made the joke about changing the program. Not them. All Paul did was tweet funny made up lyrics. So, no.

Paul tweeted that they were going to Worlds No. 10, Jackie asked if that was like Mambo No. 5, then Paul made up the lyrics. Then Jackie tweeted that G/P changed their RD to Mambo 5 with revised lyrics. It was clearly a joke.
 
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Mr. Denis SAMOKHIN is friends with Morozov so I guess this helps Weapo but he is only the assistant here, anyway I think its ridiculous that there is no north American representation on the panels given the strength of the teams, the last time the isu stacked the deck in favor of Russia we got Sotnikova's gold.
 
I think the gadbois teams should be pretty good here with the french technical controller who is apparently good friends with Marie-France and Romain and they coach the only japanese ice dance team so that should have them covered with the technical specialist. Of course nothing is set in stone but I would think this panel would favor the montreal teams
 
Peepsquick said:
I just wish for fairness. It shouldn't matter that NA are not represented, if the judging system works as it should.
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True. But there’s always subjectivity in Ice Dance, even with the most fair judges.
The issue I have is still the power of the GOE’s to make up for technical errors or deficiencies.

I’m very torn by this aspect in Ice Dance particularly this season. I agree it shouldn’t just be about levels. But I do have an issue with teams who have been at the top still winning with lower levels then teams deemed “beneath” them.

I just feel that GOE’s and PCS are still used as a placeholder rather then being fairly and accurately applied.
 
sharsk8s said:
I think the gadbois teams should be pretty good here with the french technical controller who is apparently good friends with Marie-France and Romain and they coach the only japanese ice dance team so that should have them covered with the technical specialist. Of course nothing is set in stone but I would think this panel would favor the montreal teams
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But if you are saying that this specialist does not base his decisions on what is on the ice then he would mark down teams other than the French to ensure the French teams move up placings. (except for P/C who do not need any kind of boost to achieve success). So the order would be 1)teams from France from Gaddbois. 2)Teams from France not Gaddbois 3)Teams from Gaddbois but not from France 4)any team that could threaten teams from France and Gaddbois 5)leftovers

I am not convinced that that is going to happen so will hope the calling is correct on every team's output. Yes I do believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny.
 
Yes but it’s hardly like the levels have mattered this season (unless there's been a massive error like at 4CC) if the judging panel wants you to win.

For example, for some teams it will make no difference in their placements if they get a level 2 and level 1 for the tango romantica or two level 4s. Just add on some +5 GOE and it's like it never happened.

The majority of the nefarious behaviour will be happening on the judging panel, with the application of GOE.

I think it's a big red herring to be worrying about the technical panel and the evels. If the judges want a team to win, they will win -- and it doesn't matter what the technical panel does.

After all, at Grand Prix Final, the technical levels got higher as you descended down the podium rankings. Those levels didn't affect the judges awarding GOE to get the results they wanted.

The teams that have the most to be concerned about will be the teams sitting below podium level. They will be shuffled around using GOE and levels without the 'chosen ones' GOE.
 
It's interesting, the discussion that's happening around levels in ice dance with the introduction of the new GOE range. It seems to have become accepted (more or less) over the course of this season in singles and pairs that yes, a good triple should outscore a bad quad or even a mediocre one, and a good Level 3 spin should outscore a mediocre Level 4 one. I see levels in ice dance the same way - a well-skated Level 3 pattern absolutely should outscore a less well-skated Level 4, etc etc, because it's not just a question of whether you hit all the beats but how well you do what you do, and how well you present the character of the pattern too. In that way, maybe the TR was a good pattern to start the new GOE range on after all, since it's set that principle in place?
 
Orm Irian said:
It's interesting, the discussion that's happening around levels in ice dance with the introduction of the new GOE range. It seems to have become accepted (more or less) over the course of this season in singles and pairs that yes, a good triple should outscore a bad quad or even a mediocre one, and a good Level 3 spin should outscore a mediocre Level 4 one. I see levels in ice dance the same way - a well-skated Level 3 pattern absolutely should outscore a less well-skated Level 4, etc etc, because it's not just a question of whether you hit all the beats but how well you do what you do, and how well you present the character of the pattern too. In that way, maybe the TR was a good pattern to start the new GOE range on after all, since it's set that principle in place?
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A level 3 versus level 4 pattern is not the same thing as attempting a triple versus a quad. All elite teams are attempting to get a level 4.
 
The difference with ice dance is that it doesn’t have clear technical markers and high risk factors like singles with jumps.

In singles you can have the best raw skating skills but if you stuff the jumps you will get beaten.

If ice dancers are judged solely on GOE then they might as well mail out the medals in advance and remove its Olympic status. Would make for a pretty boring discipline.
 
Borrowing this explanation from Mary and Alicia on the Flutzes and Waxels podcast (if you don't listen to it, incidentally, I highly recommend it), but look at the bronze medal race at the Golden Spin of Zagreb earlier this year, where Popova/Mozgov beat Koch/Nuchtern by less than half a point.

RD protocols
Koch/Nuchtern RD
Popova/Mozgov RD

FD protocols
Koch/Nuchtern FD
Popova/Mozgov FD

Look in particular at the RD results, where Koch/Nuchtern got level 4s on everything including both parts of the TR pattern and skated cleanly, while Popova/Mozgov had disasters on both the pattern and the rotational lift, and yet they were less than three points behind. Popova/Mozgov also had a twizzle mishap in the free dance and had lower levels overall than Koch/Nuchtern there, but the judges still handed them the win, which the aforementioned podcast analogized to somebody with a double Axel beating Yuzuru Hanyu.
 
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Scores are often--not always but often--high with Higashino. She called the 2016 Boston Worlds, WTT in 2017, last year's GPF, and this year's NHK and the Asian Open. My guess is that it's good news for teams that are here and trying to make the top 24 or to jockey for a better position on the SB list heading into next season's GP. (And not great news for the athletes who are not here & hoping to hold their positions).

I probably need to reshuffle my predictions of who will miss the FD, as Komatsubara & Koleto are on my list. I think Higashino is a fair caller. It's just that I had them pegged to just miss the cut & when you are that close, every little bit could help.

The only event off the top of my head that I remember Samokhin calling was Rostelecom 2017-18. The calls seemed fair to me. (Carol Lane and Gilles & Poirier didn't care for their scores;), but level-wise, their FD levels were just as good as Stepanova & Bukin's. And their RD levels were pretty par for what they usually get--at least at the first GP of the season).

Orm Irian said:
I see levels in ice dance the same way - a well-skated Level 3 pattern absolutely should outscore a less well-skated Level 4,
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A level 1 pattern or footwork sequence is not well skated. And we have been seeing level 1s get good GOE for specific teams (unless there is the kind of obvious error anyone can see).
 
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