The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[alain06fr]

(...) But a team from a less favored country skates well, hits the levels, gets decent marks, and their are pages of people acting like this is the most questionable result in years. Talk to me when when H&D get huge marks for tepid programs that are skated with a big gap between their bodies and are beating teams like Guignard & Fabbri at worlds.

I fully agree with what Nathalie Péchalat said about this polish couple.

Arguments such as “less favored country” are onviously completely unrelevant, especially when talking about a couple which is incredibly overscored and so much “favored”.

You should rather think of all these couples working hard, delivering much more difficult programs with better performances and getting lower marks. Nathalie Péchalat took the time to argue with interesting technical details about this.

Waiting roughly 10 mn (!!!!) to get their scores in Milan was ridiculous.

I have nothing for or against this couple. I just would like them to be judged like any other couple.

 

[allezfred]

A lot can change and improve in two years.

And some things remain exactly the same.

 

[chantilly]

And some things remain exactly the same.

True. Like I said haven’t seen them skate.
My point was that you can’t judge a team based on where they were at 2 years ago. You have to judge them where they are at now.

Whether they’ve stayed the same, improved or regressed is irrelevant.

 

[barbarafan]

^
A lot can change and improve in two years.
P and C were 13th and won worlds the following season.

I haven’t even seen the poles skate this season but still my point stands.

I saw them twice this year and found them very slow and heavy on the ice compared with their marks

 

[barbarafan]

Sharon Rogers is at the Bavarian open no 4cc for her maybe its a punishment

Sharon Rogers hates most CDN teams so doesn't look good for our guys at Bavarian open. Too bad

 

[alain06fr]

I saw them twice this year and found them very slow and heavy on the ice compared with their marks

I fully agree.

Eurosport comments:
First commentator: “it’s most of time two feet hence they’re quite slow”
Nathalie: “It’s not ‘most of the time’ two feet, it’s always two feet... and whenever they gain speed and have the possibility to skate one foot with crossed movements, they perform 3 crossed movements within 5 meters, it’s totally wheezing...”

I think their free dance program is fun and interesting but the level of performance becomes an issue when they skate in the last group. The impression would have been totally different if they skated in the one before last group. Comparison with S/K, G/F, P/C and S/B (who all delivered great fd performances) was really terrible.

 

[yurokis40]

Sharon Rogers hates most CDN teams so doesn't look good for our guys at Bavarian open. Too bad

the tech controller is Canadian , and she is only one judge.

 

[barbarafan]

the tech controller is Canadian , and she is only one judge.

when the teams are so close one judge can make a difference and doesn't matter about cdn controller....We are raised to always do the fair thing . I keep a close watch on marks and often they mark cdns lower than the norm...to make sure we are not seen as being biased ..or if a move is hard to tell about a possible problem they are likely to give another team the benefit and a cdn not.....just in case anyone has a diff. of opinion.......On the other hand....domestic cdn judges can be really really really really biased. Go figure..

 

[yurokis40]

when the teams are so close one judge can make a difference and doesn't matter about cdn controller....We are raised to always do the fair thing . I keep a close watch on marks and often they mark cdns lower than the norm...to make sure we are not seen as being biased ..or if a move is hard to tell about a possible problem they are likely to give another team the benefit and a cdn not.....just in case anyone has a diff. of opinion.......On the other hand....domestic cdn judges can be really really really really biased. Go figure..

I don't see Lajoie and lagha being challenged at this event, they are strong junior worlds medal contenders I think marie france went with them , now at 4cc in the event Weaver and Poje pull off a victory a lot of people will dismiss it because the tech specialist is Canadian and Poltorak is very friendly with the Canadian ice dance teams.

 

[PRlady]

Again based only on onscreen viewing this season I’m going to stand my ground on the Poles. They really are not a top team.

 

[allezfred]

Well, normally I'd have said you can't tell from just watching on TV. However.......

 

[Colonel Green]

when the teams are so close one judge can make a difference and doesn't matter about cdn controller...

But the teams are not "so close". Have you looked at the entry list for the Bavarian Open? Lajoie/Lagha are way, way above any of the other teams there.

 

[binbinwinwin]

I've seen the Poles live too and I was not impressed, poor ice coverage and very clunky. Maybe they are getting the edges to hit those levels but it really does not look good.

Also if they had placed behind both Spanish teams, which they should've, Spain would have 3 Euros spots for next year. Not that they have a 3rd team right now but they earned it. Best of luck to H/K on earning 2 spots at World's this season.

 

[VGThuy]

I really do hope Spain gets 2 spots for Worlds because I'm getting tired of that drama between them. I mean I love a good rivalry but both of those teams are good enough to be at Worlds and shouldn't have that extra burden of getting one Worlds spot. I think that makes things tenser than it needs to be.

 

[sharsk8s]

I really do hope Spain gets 2 spots for Worlds because I'm getting tired of that drama between them. I mean I love a good rivalry but both of those teams are good enough to be at Worlds and shouldn't have that extra burden of getting one Worlds spot. I think that makes things tenser than it needs to be.

I think the worlds qualification criteria per country might need to be updated, especially for ice dance. Countries are getting 3 spots (such as france) if they have 1 very good team but the rest might not be as good while a country like Spain where both teams are very decent and deserve to be there is struggling to get 2. (at some point didn't france have 3 spots but not three teams?)

 

[VGThuy]

The way the system works now, it seems way easier to keep two spots than it is to gain two spots.

 

[Colonel Green]

The current qualification criteria are more of an issue for me in dance compared to the other disciplines because of how relatively static the rankings of the top dance teams are, compared to how wild the singles disciplines can be.

It’s difficult to get into the top ten to get two, as we’ve seen with Spain. There are three countries whose dance scenes are strong enough that they realistically should always have three, but Russia’s been frozen out of that for most of the last quad through a combination of bad luck and a lack of an absolute top-tier team. That seems likely be be remedied this year (unless Nikita works his magic again). Canada could potentially have the same issue if Weaver/Poje retire mid-quad.

 

[Dobre]

It's tough to finish top ten at Worlds. But it's exceedingly more difficult to finish top 8. (I don't really have an issue with the current qualification scenario in dance. I've always thought the point of multiple berths was if a country has multiple potential medalists. All the medal hopefuls will be at Worlds in dance, provided they stay healthy).

I mean I love a good rivalry but both of those teams are good enough to be at Worlds and shouldn't have that extra burden of getting one Worlds spot.

Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. There are easily 10 (more like 14 for H&K and 14-15 for S&D) international teams that have been defeating both Spanish teams this season. Several of those teams won't be at Worlds because their own fields at home are deeper. So while the Spanish teams have a tough fight trying to earn the two spots, Spain also benefits from the limited number of berths at Worlds. If Hurtado & Khaliavin skate clean at Worlds, they have a shot at earning the second spot. (I'm thinking Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen could be a problem). But if berths were not limited, H&K would have a much tougher battle ahead of them. So the limitations for qualifying are both a plus & a negative for Spain. (Spain/Russia & Spain/Great Britain).


Note:
I've see Kaliszek & Spodyriev skate live three times in the last three years (2016 Worlds, 2017 Skate Canada, 2018 Skate America). They weren't ready early in the season. They looked good late in the season. They are a very short team. They aren't going to fit the typical or soft & flowy ice-dance mode. But they are fun, and they have good power for their height when they are ready.

 

[sharsk8s]

One of the problems I have with the qualification is that if you place top 3 you automatically get 3 spots but some of the really good teams come from small feds where they are by far the top team (such as p/c or a while ago c/l) and there might not even be two other worlds level teams

I just checked, France had 3 spots in 2016 and only sent 1 team to worlds, in 2018 they had 3 spots again and only sent 2 teams. Italy had 3 spots in 2015 and only sent 1 team. Its unfair these countries don't even have enough teams for the amount of spots they have while other countries have multiple world level teams fighting for one spot

 

[allezfred]

One of the problems I have with the qualification is that if you place top 3 you automatically get 3 spots

No you don’t. If you only have one team competing, that team has to place top two to get three spots. Third place to 10th and you get two spots.

 

[chantilly]

I do think if a country doesn’t use all its spots, the spot should possibly go to the next team/ country who has the highest international scores.

 

[VGThuy]

One thing I think needs to be looked at is the fact that one country can have all three skaters in the top ten but because they missed the magic 13 number (sometimes by mere fractions where the placements could have gone either way), they lose one spot and only get 2 while another fed's whole team can place like 3rd; 10th; and 15th and they still get to have three spots.

 

[VGThuy]

Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. There are easily 10 (more like 14 for H&K and 14-15 for S&D) international teams that have been defeating both Spanish teams this season. Several of those teams won't be at Worlds because their own fields at home are deeper. So while the Spanish teams have a tough fight trying to earn the two spots, Spain also benefits from the limited number of berths at Worlds. If Hurtado & Khaliavin skate clean at Worlds, they have a shot at earning the second spot. (I'm thinking Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen could be a problem). But if berths were not limited, H&K would have a much tougher battle ahead of them. So the limitations for qualifying are both a plus & a negative for Spain. (Spain/Russia & Spain/Great Britain).

That's a good point. My post was more about being tired of the drama that seems to surround the Spanish teams and who gets what berth and certain members of a team talking about the unfairness of the procedure, etc. rather than actual fairness. I wasn't thinking about high international placers who can't get in due to the maximum limit of 3 per federation, but it is a WORLD championship so maybe that's why I didn't think about needing to add more than 3.

 

[Ka3sha]

I believe that Spain’ best chance to grab two spots at Worlds was in Milano last year..
This time it will be almost impossible.


Re Poles: for me they are the most over-rated team in last few years.
I have nothing against them as people and skaters, but just don’t get their scores. I have seen them live several times (two times this year) and still don’t get it. Their skating seems heavy, they don’t have great SS, unison or beautiful lines or innovative elements and etc..
IMO, Smart/Diaz should have been ahead of them in the RD; and Hurtado/Khalivin - in the FD. And the Brits were clearly better in both segments

 

[Dobre]

One of the problems I have with the qualification is that if you place top 3 you automatically get 3 spots

The rules change, and I'm not sure if I remember the timeline correctly. The top 3 qualification rule has been dead for many, many years. I think I remember learning about the top 2 rule prior to the 2016 Worlds so I'm not sure it existed in 2015. In any case, you only get the three spots based on a top 2 finish if you only send one team to Worlds. Otherwise, the 2nd team's results matter. So even if the top 2 rule existed in 2014/15, Italy wouldn't have had the three spots. They would have had 2 based on the combined placements from Cappellini & Lanotte and Guignard & Fabbri in 2014. And Italy sent both teams again to fill those spots in 2015. (Italy had 4 senior dance teams at the 2015 Italian Figure Skating Championships. Komatsubara & Fabbri and Tessari & Fioretti were both there).

France had a second team to send in 2016 (Alessandrini & Souquet just made the FD at Euros that year), but the federation chose not to send them because A&S didn't meet whatever internal criteria France had at the time. (I don't think it was ever clear what that criteria was). The French Fed did send the same team the following season, along with Lauriault & Le Gac who aged up that year. I wondered at the time if there might have been some strategy involved there. In 2016, France had two competitive junior teams--both more competitive than their second senior team. If France had sent A&S in 2016, they would have lost the third berth for 2017. In the end, though, it was a wash because Abachkina & Thauron stayed in juniors. France sent A&S and L&LG in 2017 and lost the third berth before Abachkina & Thauron moved up anyway. A&S were more competitive internationally in 2017 than 2016.

Anyway, you only get the 3 spots based on a top 2 placement if you only send one team to Worlds. It's a weird rule, but it's not a very realistic problem in ice dance.

 

[RoseRed]

One of the problems I have with the qualification is that if you place top 3 you automatically get 3 spots but some of the really good teams come from small feds where they are by far the top team (such as p/c or a while ago c/l) and there might not even be two other worlds level teams

I just checked, France had 3 spots in 2016 and only sent 1 team to worlds, in 2018 they had 3 spots again and only sent 2 teams. Italy had 3 spots in 2015 and only sent 1 team. Its unfair these countries don't even have enough teams for the amount of spots they have while other countries have multiple world level teams fighting for one spot

No, they only had two spots in dance at Worlds.

 

[Escarbille]

Where can we find the beautiful ISU document of 4625 pages that will enlighten us on this subject? Or maybe there is a doctoral student working on the subject?

 

[RoseRed]

Where can we find the beautiful ISU document of 4625 pages that will enlighten us on this subject? Or maybe there is a doctoral student working on the subject?

It's really not that complicated, once you read the rules.

If a country has only 1 skater/team competing, they have to place 10 ten to earn 2 spots, and top 2 to earn 3 spots.

If a skater has 2 teams, their combined placements have to be 28* or less for 2 spots, and 13 or less for 3 spots.

If a skater has 3 teams, the best 2 results count and it works just if they had 2 teams.

*Anyone who qualifies for the FS/FD is counted as having a 16th place or better. Anyone who misses the FS/FD is counted as having an 18th place. This is the most complicated bit.

 

[Dobre]

That's a good point. My post was more about being tired of the drama that seems to surround the Spanish teams and who gets what berth and certain members of a team talking about the unfairness of the procedure, etc. rather than actual fairness.

You are tired of the ? I don't believe it.

I will have to look up the definition of "ice dance fan," but I'm pretty sure that love is somewhere in the definition, no? I dislike when the drama seems to supersede the skating; but these two teams are getting better as they work together so that's good.

Anyway, I don't really feel sorry for S&D or H&K. Smart & Khaliavin are getting all kinds of opportunities to compete at a high level that they mightn't have gotten at home. And Hurtado & Diaz created this dilemma for themselves as they could have just gone on being the top team at Worlds for Spain throughout the entire quadrennium. They weren't up for that, which is their prerogative. And the new teams are making a push to be better--to actually be competitive with the best in the World. Well, that's hard. It's very, very hard; and that is the challenge these two teams face. Sara needs to get her twizzles. Adria needs to improve his footwork. It's a big challenge they have set for themselves, and we fans get to enjoy the battles.

I believe that Spain’ best chance to grab two spots at Worlds was in Milano last year.
This time it will be almost impossible.

We'll see.

 

[starrynight]

Now would be the time to make the push to the top 10. Last quad was crazy. We had teams ranking all the way from number 1 to number 8 or 9 who all had more or less been on world podiums in the past and who all had the capacity to be on the world podium if things went their way on the day.