The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[taz'smum]

I think that Stepanova/Bukin will win this time, if both teams are clean. Never underestimate the power of politics and Bestimianova/TAT
But Euros and Worlds should be interesting!

Yup, I think there will also be a big push by the Fed to keep both teams as close as possible, to be seen as having 2 world medal contenders. So I expect Bukin to be first for this reason and also to help compensate for not being invited to the Olympics. That will be S/K 1, S/B 1. So then the Euros judges can split them for the Fed.
(the fed also needs to build some protection just in case the SK splatting days are not completely over! )

Also, if S/K were to win, I think that would be a record, as I'm not sure a Russian Ice Dance team has ever gone from Reserve team to Russian champions in just 1 season?

 

[aftershocks]

I think that Stepanova/Bukin will win this time, if both teams are clean. Never underestimate the power of politics and Bestimianova/TAT
But Euros and Worlds should be interesting!

Ha ha, yep! I was going to mention TAT. I didn't know Bestimianova was also politicking for StepBuk, but oh yeah, it makes sense.

 

[Eisfee]

Yup, I think there will also be a big push by the Fed to keep both teams as close as possible, to be seen as having 2 world medal contenders. So I expect Bukin to be first for this reason and also to help compensate for not being invited to the Olympics. That will be S/K 1, S/B 1. So then the Euros judges can split them for the Fed.
(the fed also needs to build some protection just in case the SK splatting days are not completely over! )

Also, if S/K were to win, I think that would be a record, as I'm not sure a Russian Ice Dance team has ever gone from Reserve team to Russian champions in just 1 season?

Elena Ilinykh/Ruslan Zhiganshin won Russian Nationals in their first season together!

 

[Ka3sha]

Ha ha, yep! I was going to mention TAT. I didn't know Bestimianova was also politicking for StepBuk, but oh yeah, it makes sense.

Well, Ivan is her partner's son and they sometimes help S/B with choreo and other things

As for politics: after GPF there was a talk-show on Match!TV and Bestemianova was invited as an expert - the only thing she was talking about was how Stepanova/Bukin were robbed at GPF and the hosts of the show didn't even mention that SinKats medalled there. Later she and TAT gave few more interviews also mostly talking about Stepanova/Bukin and mean judges
Today R-sport published new Vaitsekhovskaya's interview with Zhulin, in which he complained that everyone after GPF was talking only about poor underscored Stepanova/Bukin and didn't even congratulate SinKats on their silver. And that Russian judge scored his team lower than Stepanova/Bukin in RD


So yeah,

 

[Dobre]

I simply prefer Stepanova & Bukin. Both teams are close enough--not just on paper, but literally watching them on the practice rink--that it should come down to the performance, IMO. (I really enjoyed watching them go up during the same practice session this past week). Both teams have political advantages and political disadvantages. Claiming those advantages/disadvantages are all on one side is nonsense. Both teams missed the Olympics. Both teams have strong political connections (don't tell me it hasn't help S&K to become Zhulin's #1 team). Both teams have an argument based on the past history of their skating, S&K from the GPF, S&B from a more consistent skating history. Both teams have been skating well this season. I'd like to see S&B come out on top, but I think they will really have to fight for it. The Shibs won Nationals after finishing fourth & two spots behind Chock & Bates at the GPF in 2015-16. It could happen. But it's rare.

 

[Peepsquick]

I quite liked S/B in past seasons and while they still mesmerize me at times this season, it's for all the wrong reasons: Bukin's over-the-top macho facial expression and Stepanova's overuse of her long legs and (to me) also fake sexiness.
Bukin's skating skills are excellent though and he brings quality to the team. She is eye candy but her bend posture makes her awkward. The legs though is what they are selling. They are performers but they hit you over the head with it. Not my thing. I quite like S/K (in spite of the end of the FD). Their SD is brilliant imo.

 

[Dobre]

You've gotta sell what you've got. The worst thing you can do is let the critics talk you into throwing out your best elements or the style that makes you stand out from the crowd. Ask Virtue & Moir how throwing out their lift worked for them during the Olympic team event last year. (What was it that was selling? LOL).

I like flash. I would have paid good money for more of it during the ladies' programs (senior & junior) at the GPF.

 

[taz'smum]

Whilst I like both teams very much, I have a preference for S/K, as for me both partners in this team have great skating skills and both now match very well and are easy on the eye. The are a well rounded team. I love their tango, I just wish they had a better FD.
I also love the underdog, and have great respect for anyone having gone through the humiliation of the past 2 seasons and yet coming back stronger!
(fingers crossed, they don't revert to the splatting of previous seasons)

I love how S/B look, especially her great costumes this season showing off her amazing figure, and I love their attack. I also like the fact that they try different styles each season. I just wish that the choreo didn't always revolve around her kicking her legs up, (albeit beautiful long legs). Whilst their beauty is easy on the eye, they are less easy on the eye then S/K in terms of harmony and the fact that his skating skills are stronger than hers.
So hard to decide, May the best team win out of S/K and S/B.

 

[Madison25]

I would like the following podium at the Russian Nationals:
1. S/K
2. Z/G
3. S/B
I think it's the fair podium based on their skills . S/B are overrated, their superior part of the body looks good and in harmony, the legs no... The free dance is attractive, but it's more like a pair-skating programme, very open.

 

[PRlady]

I think it’s fun that the US has gone from a dance battle at Nats to a slam dunk for the gold. (Although the other two spots will be whether C/B compete or not.) Now it’s Russia that doesn’t know who its #1 team is.

I would really like to see Sinitsina and Stepanova skate side by side to see relative strengths and weaknesses.

 

[aftershocks]

Well, Ivan is her partner's son

Right, I know. That's what I was referencing.

 

[aftershocks]

So hard to decide, May the best team win out of S/K and S/B.

Well, but lots of good luck to Zahorski/Guerreiro too! In fact, while SinKats have nice lines and potential, and StepBuk are creative and entertaining, I find Z/G the better matched pair of the three. Tiff and Jon are dramatic, romantic and oh so easy on the eyes. Their FD was a bit frantic at SA, but kudos to them for their determination in going for it, after not having a lot of prep time. Speaking of nice lines and potential, T&J have scads too! I'm sure the Rusfed politics are more with the other two teams at the moment.

 

[suki]

Ha ha, yep! I was going to mention TAT. I didn't know Bestimianova was also politicking for StepBuk, but oh yeah, it makes sense.

Bestimianova has been pushing for S/B since they were juniors. I remember her saying something to the effect that they were the "real" ice dancing team because they could do the dramatic Russian style that she and her partner, Bukhin's dad, did back in the 80s. IMHO, Best/Bukh were one of the most cringe-worthy teams to win a Oylmpic and World gold, especially when compared to their competitors of the time (Klimova/Ponomerenko, Usova/Zhulin).

 

[muffinplus]

Both teams are close enough--not just on paper, but literally watching them on the practice rink--that it should come down to the performance,

Sinitsina's edge quality is much better than Stepanova's. SinKats are more evenly matched

 

[chantilly]

Bestimianova has been pushing for S/B since they were juniors. I remember her saying something to the effect that they were the "real" ice dancing team because they could do the dramatic Russian style that she and her partner, Bukhin's dad, did back in the 80s. IMHO, Best/Bukh were one of the most cringe-worthy teams to win a Oylmpic and World gold, especially when compared to their competitors of the time (Klimova/Ponomerenko, Usova/Zhulin).

Yas! Queen preach.
My mom used to call them the team that stomped their feet and pulled faces.

 

[Dobre]

For the heck of it . . .

Stepanova & Bukin

In summary:
She has 8 Y's and 4 N's.
He has 4 Y's, 7 N's, and 1 T.
They both have exactly the same levels on their twizzles.
She has 4 level 3's on the one-foot footwork.
He has 3 level 3's and 1 level 2 on the one-foot footwork.

Essentially, they look quite balanced, except on the pattern where he is having the harder time.

In detail:
Points of Comparison: The following are assigned to specific members of the team this season and can be compared on a protocol sheet: Keypoints 1-4 on the first pattern, Keypoints 2-3 on the second pattern, the twizzles in both dances, the one-foot footwork sequence.

If the assigned athlete earned the keypoint, I wrote in the name of the competition. If he/she didn't, I put an "N" for no or a "T" for timing.

First Pattern:
Keypoint 1 (the woman)-Finlandia, Helsinki, N, N
Keypoint 2 (the man)-Finlandia, T, N, N
Keypoint 3 (the woman) N, Helsinki, Rostelecom, N
Keypoint 4 (the man)-Finlandia, Helsinki, N, N

Second Pattern
Keypoint 2 (the woman)-Finlandia, Helsinki, Rostelecom, GP Final
Keypoint 3 (the man) N, N, N, GP Final

Twizzles:
Level 1 for both-Finlandia RD
Level 4 for both-Finlandia FD
Level 4 for both-Helsinki RD
Level 4 for both-Helsinki FD
Level 4 for both-Rostelecom RD
Level 3 for her-Rostelecom FD
Level 4 for him-Rostelecom FD
Level 4 for both-GPF RD
Level 4 for her-GPF FD
Level 3 for him-GPF FD

One-Foot Step Sequence:
Level 3 for both-Finlandia
Level 3 for both-Helsinki
Level 3 for her-Rostelecom
Level 2 for him-Rostelecom
Level 3 for both-GPF

I did this quickly so it is entirely possible that I've made mistakes. Just let me know if you see one, and I'll edit.

 

[Ka3sha]

IMO, ability to hit levels and great SS/good edge quality are not the same things

 

[Dobre]

What would you say is required in order to earn a Y on the pattern that is not about edge quality? Or required to earn a higher level on the footwork?

 

[wickedwitch]

What would you say is required in order to earn a Y on the pattern that is not about edge quality? Or required to earn a higher level on the footwork?

Getting levels is about being on the correct edge at the correct time. This is insanely important in ice dance, but it's not the only thing that matters.

For example, I can do a 3 turn. If there were levels to be gotten for doing correct 3 turns, I would get them. But I would hope ice dancers can do better 3 turns than I can.

ETA: You especially can't compare key points this year within a partnership, because they have different requirements.

 

[Icetigger]

What would you say is required in order to earn a Y on the pattern that is not about edge quality?

Hold; timing;turns

 

[millyskate]

Just come in to swoon at P/C's French nats RD - if there's a thread in Kiss'n Cry I couldn't find it


Truly a masterpiece of a program IMO, and stunning interpretation.

 

[laviemn]

I just caught up on Golden Spin and this

There's more to quality skating than being on the correct edge.

and this

Getting levels is about being on the correct edge at the correct time. This is insanely important in ice dance, but it's not the only thing that matters.

...sums up my thoughts on that event vs the GPF. I don't know if all of those level 4s were reasonable or Golden Spin just had the Oprah of tech callers, but for me the ice dance at GPF with lower levels was more impressive and enjoyable.

 

[Dobre]

I don't know if all of those level 4s were reasonable or Golden Spin just had the Oprah of tech callers, but for me the ice dance at GPF with lower levels was more impressive and enjoyable.

Oh, for sure. I remember saying at the beginning of the year that I suspected the calls on the rocker would depend a lot on how tough the callers were. Nothing we've seen has changed that. I should do a GP vs. Golden Spin pattern level comparison. Maybe next.

Hold; timing;turns

The timing is required, but it is already marked separately so only relevant with regard to the one timing call Ivan had.

I know holds impact levels during the footwork sequences. I've never heard anyone say Stepanova's holds are of a lower quality than Ivan's. So, yes, relevant information; but I wouldn't think particularly relevant when comparing the quality of one partner vs. another partner, especially during the pattern where the holds are prescribed.

You especially can't compare key points this year within a partnership, because they have different requirements.

I agree with this, though this year is the best comparison I've seen possible within the pattern. In part, because the levels are marked separately. Also in the past, when commentators have compared the man's vs. the woman's steps within the keypoints, I just remember them saying that the lady had more work. Unfortunately, we don't get that level of analysis very often so I'm not sure how often that has been true. This season there are so many steps, both partners are certainly doing a substantial part of the judged work.

It would be interesting to do a keypoint comparison for the top ten teams this season and see if there are any guys that are besting their partners on the keypoints. Somewhere back there in this thread is the link to successful percentages for each keypoint, but I've no idea how far back...

 

[Dobre]

Pattern Levels at Golden Spin (GS) vs. The GP.
(All teams had higher levels at Golden Spin except for Kaliszek & Spodyriev, who had the same levels at both of their GPs and GS).

Gilles & Poirier
GS-3&3
SC-1&B
IDF-1&2

Kaliszek & Spodyriev
GS-2&2
SA-2&2
Rostelecom-2&2

Koch & Nuchtern
GS-4&4
Helsinki-B&1

Yanovskaya & Lukacs
GS-4&4
Rostelecom-1&B

Popova & Mozgov
GS-2&4
Helsinki-B&3
IDF-2&1

Tweedale & Buckland
GS-3&4
SA-1&2
SC-2&3

Muller & Dieck
GS-1&4
SA-2&2
Helsinki-1&B

Morozov & Bagin
GS-1&2
Rostelecom-B&B

Can someone explain how Popova & Mozgov earned a Level 2 on their first pattern without any Ys? (He did a deep squat during the pattern, which I assume was the big problem here; this protocol marking is new to me).
http://puls-hosting.com/cs2018/html/

 

[Dobre]

Found the link comparing the percentages for the pattern:
https://twitter.com/skatingstats/status/1067302535734550528

The women earned 71 keypoints on the regular GP. The men earned 59. (If I added correctly mentally).

The women have their higher numbers in the first pattern. The men have higher numbers in the second pattern. The lowest number of Y's is for the second keypoint in the second pattern.

Interestingly, it is also the keypoint that Stepanova has earned in every event.

 

[Scrufflet]

Yas! Queen preach.
My mom used to call them the team that stomped their feet and pulled faces.

`That routine where they were dressed as chess pieces has been burned into my memory for years!

 

[aftershocks]

Yas! Queen preach.
My mom used to call them the team that stomped their feet and pulled faces.

Not to be irreverent, but looking back, B/B both resemble drag queens or characters out of Bram Stoker's Dracula, or Michael Jackson's Thriller. But I guess that kind of broad playacting on ice and OTT drama went over well back then and the politics was in their favor. Plus, they did have good skating skills and talent. They just played it all up to the hilt. Ice dance overacting became very important as a result of B/B's excesses that won them championships.

Sinitsina's edge quality is much better than Stepanova's. SinKats are more evenly matched

SinKats are physically/ proportionally better matched than StepBuk, yes. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to 'edge quality,' but I suppose you are right in that respect. However, there's a lot more that goes into making a team engaging and watchable than just edge quality. There are lots of factors, and edge quality can be improved. For me, Katsalopov had a lot more chemistry and contrast with Elena Ilinykh, but that's a thing of the past.

Going forward, SinKats have certainly improved, yet still have a ways to go, especially in terms of finding better material to sink their teeth into, and that has more depth and interest. For me, StepBuk, despite their slightly mismatched physical proportions, have a great deal of dynamic flair, and more palpable chemistry than SinKats. Both teams still have much to work on, and for my money neither are actually better than Gilles/Poirier.

G/P sadly have gotten the short-end of the stick so far this season. G/P have always deserved better scores. Yes, they made a mistake at SC, which has haunted them for the rest of the season, but they are still an overall more innovative and accomplished team than SinKats and StepBuk. G/P need some political clout and some determined confidence to push them forward. Piper is an example of a skater who has improved to match her partner's SS strengths.

 

[starrynight]

Protocols from French Nationals http://csndg.org/resultats/ELITES-2018/FE2018_DANSE_RD_Scores.pdf

Level 2 TR1 and Level 3 TR2 from Papadakis/Cizeron
Level 1 TR1 and Level 2 TR2 from Lauriault/Legac

Fairly standard levels in the current climate of ice dance (and restrained too for Nationals judging so well done).

 

[cocotaffy]

Just come in to swoon at P/C's French nats RD - if there's a thread in Kiss'n Cry I couldn't find it


Truly a masterpiece of a program IMO, and stunning interpretation.

Good news is the P/C fan thread has reopened so come on over to swoon.

 

[Katha]

I think StepBukin have the political backing in Russia and will win Nats no problem. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think so tbh.

Another question is: Why would SinKats really want to win Nats? Yes, being Russia number one and the lobbying that goes with it. But do they need the pressure and the expectations of that on their shoulders? They've been very consistent so far this season, flying under the radar might actually help them with that. And at all their events so far, the international judges have been perfectly willing to give them high scores (higher scores than S/B at GPF), even though StepBukin are already "officially" the number one team right now and S/K missed the second half of last season.