The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[starrynight]

Wow.

The Spanish Nationals Rhythm Dance is a really really good example of the difference between the level base value and GOE really impacting on the result.

Hurtardo Khaliavin

TR1 - Level 4
TR2 - Level 3
Steps - Level 3
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz

TR1 - Level 1
TR2 - Level 2
Steps - Level 2
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz - win the rhythm dance

Hurtardo/Khaliavin flubbed the twizzles and the impact of getting negative GOE - which sometimes seems to be used far more freely to punish teams - resulted in the higher levels (particularly the way better levels on the Tango Romantica) being cancelled out. In previous years, having a better levels like Hurtardo/Khaliavin did would have given them a bigger buffer for a mistake elsewhere in the program.

Also, they gave Smart/Diaz higher GOE on the level 2 step sequence which basically all but cancelled out the technical benefit of Hurtardo/Khaliavin's level 3.

http://www.fedhielo.com/images/resultados/CEsp_2018/CESP2018_SeniorIceDance_RD_Scores.pdf

I really feel that the levels Hurtardo/Khaliavin got should have counted for more than a few tenths of a point.

 

[laviemn]

I think StepBukin have the political backing in Russia and will win Nats no problem. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think so tbh.

Another question is: Why would SinKats really want to win Nats? Yes, being Russia number one and the lobbying that goes with it. But do they need the pressure and the expectations of that on their shoulders? They've been very consistent so far this season, flying under the radar might actually help them with that. And at all their events so far, the international judges have been perfectly willing to give them high scores (higher scores than S/B at GPF), even though StepBukin are already "officially" the number one team right now and S/K missed the second half of last season.

Maybe it will matter if both team skate light outs, and that extra bit of status from being RUS #1 pushes their scores just a little bit past S/B. It might be the difference between a medal and no medal at Worlds. Plus if they want to move upward in their careers they have to be able to skate under pressure and expectations.

 

[RoseRed]

Wow.

The Spanish Nationals Rhythm Dance is a really really good example of the difference between the level base value and GOE really impacting on the result.

Hurtardo Khaliavin

TR1 - Level 4
TR2 - Level 3
Steps - Level 3
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz

TR1 - Level 1
TR2 - Level 2
Steps - Level 2
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz - win the rhythm dance

Hurtardo/Khaliavin flubbed the twizzles and the impact of getting negative GOE - which sometimes seems to be used far more freely to punish teams - resulted in the higher levels (particularly the way better levels on the Tango Romantica) being cancelled out. In previous years, having a better levels like Hurtardo/Khaliavin did would have given them a bigger buffer for a mistake elsewhere in the program.

Also, they gave Smart/Diaz higher GOE on the level 2 step sequence which basically all but cancelled out the technical benefit of Hurtardo/Khaliavin's level 3.

http://www.fedhielo.com/images/resultados/CEsp_2018/CESP2018_SeniorIceDance_RD_Scores.pdf

I really feel that the levels Hurtardo/Khaliavin got should have counted for more than a few tenths of a point.

H/K still won the TES. It was PCS that put S/D ahead.

 

[starrynight]

H/K still won the TES. It was PCS that put S/D ahead.

Yes, but didn't win TES by enough.

If the levels were worth more, than PCS wouldn't have put S/D ahead.

 

[laviemn]

Wow.

The Spanish Nationals Rhythm Dance is a really really good example of the difference between the level base value and GOE really impacting on the result.

Hurtardo Khaliavin

TR1 - Level 4
TR2 - Level 3
Steps - Level 3
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz

TR1 - Level 1
TR2 - Level 2
Steps - Level 2
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz - win the rhythm dance

Hurtardo/Khaliavin flubbed the twizzles and the impact of getting negative GOE - which sometimes seems to be used far more freely to punish teams - resulted in the higher levels (particularly the way better levels on the Tango Romantica) being cancelled out. In previous years, having a better levels like Hurtardo/Khaliavin did would have given them a bigger buffer for a mistake elsewhere in the program.

Also, they gave Smart/Diaz higher GOE on the level 2 step sequence which basically all but cancelled out the technical benefit of Hurtardo/Khaliavin's level 3.

http://www.fedhielo.com/images/resultados/CEsp_2018/CESP2018_SeniorIceDance_RD_Scores.pdf

I really feel that the levels Hurtardo/Khaliavin got should have counted for more than a few tenths of a point.

Hurtado had a couple of wobbly moments in addition to the twizzle. She had a small loss of balance during a the twizzle in the step sequence which should hurt the GOE, and again during the short spin right before the ending pose. All of this should hurt the PCS too. Smart/Diaz looked cleaner to the naked eye even though they had fewer correct edges.

This is an example of how looking at only levels doesn't give the full picture of a performance. Though I agree that there should be either a wider point margin between levels or GOE should be calculated as a percentage of the level.

 

[starrynight]

Smart/Diaz looked cleaner to the naked eye even though they had fewer correct edges.

Actually, that's a really good way of describing the new judging system 'To the Naked Eye'.

Because that's how it basically works. Which team *looks better*.

 

[Dobre]

Because that's how it basically works. Which team *looks better*.

In the long run, people are never going to agree about which team looks better. (Today, yes, because there was an obvious mistake).

The "fake it till you make it" strategy worked for S&D in the RD today. H&K would have won the head-to-head, though, without the negative execution marks on the twizzles. Both teams twizzles are always a ? so it isn't out of character for this to be the mistake that costs one team or the other. Spanish Nationals is always interesting because the two teams are so close internationally. We don't know how close, but close. I would love to see both teams skate clean in the FD and see what happens.

 

[starrynight]

The "fake it 'till you make it" strategy worked for S&D in the RD today.

I think that was largely the approach of Hubbell/Donohue at the GPF as well. Just concentrate on the execution and let the levels fall where they may because in the end the GOE is worth more.

 

[Dobre]

It may be the approach of the entire Gadbois club. Of course, it's easier to make the pattern look confident if you aren't bothering to get the steps right.

It's a high-risk strategy here though.

Smart & Diaz only have a 1/2 point lead on Hurtado & Khaliavin. All season in the FD, H&K have been outscoring teams that finished above them in the RD: Carreira & Ponomarenko, the Parsons, McNamara & Carpenter. And all season, the FD has been rockier for Smart & Diaz. They have been getting passed: Lauriault & Le Gac, the Parsons, Popova & Mozgov.

But this isn't about all season. Both teams have the potential for a strong skate. Here's hoping they do it!

 

[VGThuy]

I think right now the strategy is working until the teams getting away with it start facing teams who can not only hit their levels but receive high GOE and PCS as well. It’s been kind of easy sailing at the moment.

 

[starrynight]

I think right now the strategy is working until the teams getting away with it start facing teams who can not only hit their levels but receive high GOE and PCS as well. It’s been kind of easy sailing at the moment.

It almost got Smart/Diaz. If Hurtardo/Khaliavin hadn't had that flub on the twizzles, I think that they could have garnered a fairly decent lead in the RD. But it still doesn't sit right with me that the levels don't mean as much.

Again, I think that the system will 'correct itself' next season when the pattern isn't as hard and it isn't exposing technical issues of teams that the judges want to give high GOE.

I kind of wish that the tango romantica was being judged under the old system just because it probably would have caused a gloriously entertaining post Olympic shake up.

 

[Dobre]

I think right now the strategy is working until the teams getting away with it start facing teams who can not only hit their levels but receive high GOE and PCS as well.

Hurtado & Khaliavin can do that in the free. The question is, "Will they?"

Carreira & Ponomarenko had a 1/2 point lead over them after the RD in Helsinki and lost by almost 5 (three points more than the extended lift deductions). At Rostelecom, C&P had a 2 1/2 point lead and lost the spot by 0.21 despite Sara mucking up the choreographic twizzles.

It's also obvious that Smart & Diaz can score higher in the FD than they have on the GP, since they've had visible errors in their last three free dance performances.

The chance of us getting two clean FDs is probably not very high, but it would be fun if it happens here.

 

[firstflight]

The chance of us getting two clean FDs is probably not very high, but it would be fun if it happens here.

This is one of the funnier ways of thinking about their progression: Hurtado/Diaz's inspiring partnership and programs (the buzz!), and then the break-up, and then the new partnerships, and yet years later we're at a point where it's still a competition-by-competition slog. It's as if they can never free themselves from each other's presence.

 

[Dobre]

It's as if they can never free themselves from each other's presence.

Of course not. Gilles & Donohue still go up against each other every year. Blumberg & Seibert and Klimova & Ponomarenko split dances and finished back to back at the 1984 Olympics. Pretty sure Judy, Marina, and Sergei still run into each other. This is ice dance.

It's a small world.

 

[firstflight]

Of course not. Gilles & Donohue still go up against each other every year. This is ice dance.

It's a small world.

True, but this scenario has the added bonus of each still competing for the same country. I mean, it's been *the* plot and drama in Spanish ice dance for the past couple of seasons. Like, somehow, we arrived at examining the antics of one Belarusian judge in one competition that may have had something to do with which team goes to the Olympics.....

If the two teams had separated more-- and plenty would argue that H/K should be well ahead of S/D, but others would disagree-- we wouldn't be seeing this type of intensity in every meet.

 

[Dobre]

If the two teams had separated more-- and plenty would argue that H/K should be well ahead of S/D, but others would disagree-- we wouldn't be seeing this type of intensity in every meet.

I don't know. Ilinykh & Zhiganshin won Nationals in 2015 and Sinitsina & Katsalapov finished fourth. The next year Sinitsina & Katsalapov finished 2nd and Ilinykh & Zhiganshin finished 4th. The next year both teams finished back to back.

Personally, I think Gamelin should find himself a partner and go up against Min & Eaton for Korea.

#fan of ice dance
#fan of competitive drama
#not a fan of partner splits, but what can you do?

 

[chantilly]

I have to admit I’m a little conflicted about the levels being so low and out of whack with the GOE.
But I also see the arguement that just hitting the edges does not always a great ice dancer make.
However I’m really not sure it’s right that teams scoring 1 or 2 should be getting such high GOE’s over teams gaining 3’s and 4’s.
If it is to remain a sport and not just an art form, I just can’t help but feel that the technical needs to remain a priority somewhat in scoring.
To compare, I have little issue with a great triple lutz scoring higher then a quad toe, but I am not at all happy with a greatly executed triple toe scoring higher then an ok quad.

 

[starrynight]

If it is to remain a sport and not just an art form, I just can’t help but feel that the technical needs to remain a priority somewhat in scoring.
To compare, I have little issue with a great triple lutz scoring higher then a quad toe, but I am not at all happy with a greatly executed triple toe scoring higher then an ok quad.

In ice dance, it's a bit different than singles. In singles, a skater would plan to do triples and can execute them perfectly (Alena Korstonaia's free skate at JGPF is a good example of this). A triple salchow is an intended outcome and is listed as a planned element on the program content sheet.

But in ice dance, no team goes, 'we are planning a level 1 tango romantica'. They are planning a level 4 tango romantica and they made mistakes resulting in the level being downgraded.

You can't really choose to do a level 1 tango romantica over a level 4 in the same way a singles skater may choose to do perfect triples over scratchy or fallen quads.

I think that's where the problem lies in transferring over the singles skating judging to ice dance. It doesn't really fit. It's not the program content, it's mistakes that result in the levels being downgraded.

 

[Dobre]

I think right now the strategy is working until the teams getting away with it start facing teams who can not only hit their levels but receive high GOE and PCS as well.

Hurtado & Khaliavin can do that in the free. The question is, "Will they?"

And the answer is, "Yes!" Super close competition. In the end Hurtado & Khaliavin won by @1 1/2 points. They won the base value by 3 1/2 so those levels mattered. As did the pattern itself. They won the TR by basically 2 1/2 points.

On to Europeans!

 

[taz'smum]

And the answer is, "Yes!" Super close competition. In the end Hurtado & Khaliavin won by @1 1/2 points. They won the base value by 3 1/2 so those levels mattered. As did the pattern itself. They won the TR by basically 2 1/2 points.

On to Europeans!

Europeans will probably be the Spanish Fed's decider for Worlds

 

[Dobre]

Europeans will probably be the Spanish Fed's decider for Worlds

Apparently the commentator on the Nationals stream said he thought it would be a combination between Nationals & Europeans. But since nothing is official and the score is so close, Euros is likely to make the ultimate difference.

 

[Colonel Green]

Worlds will be the only context in which each Spanish dance team will be cheering for the other, heh, in order to end this deadlock.

And it'll be a near thing in the best of circumstances. Nine of the placements in the top ten are effectively spoken for, in some order: Papadakis/Cizeron, Guignard/Fabbri, 3 American teams (Hubbell/Donohue, Chock/Bates, Hawayek/Baker), 2 Russian teams (Sinitsina/Katsalapov, Stepanova/Bukin), top 2 Canadian teams (Weaver/Poje, Gilles/Poirier).

Auditioning for the tenth spot you have:

- TBD Spanish team.
- Lauriault/Le Gac
- TBD third Canadian team.

If the Disco Brits could get some of that disco magic going in the rhythm dance they would have a shot too, actually, and wouldn't that be a huge leap from last year for them?

 

[Dobre]

Hawayek & Baker do not have their spot yet. (They are the favorites to make it out of Nationals, but there are no clear international teams between them and the WISA teams. Nor have H&B gone up against McNamara & Carpenter or, obviously, Fournier-Beaudry & Sorensen yet this season).

 

[Lara111]

Igor Shpilband: Sinitsina and Katsalapov have the best tango in the world season
08:46
Igor Shpilband
© RIA News / Vladimir Pesnya

American coach Igor Shpilband told Anatoly Samokhvalov how divinely talented his junior couple of Vietnamese American are Avon Nguyen and Ukrainian Vadim Kolesnik, how attractive Alexander Stepanov is and what Nikita Katsalapov’s dance resembles a true Argentine tango, which is not at all Yabloko.
Virchu and Moir have talent, Nguyen and Kolesnik also
- Igor, do you agree that the best of ice dancing was gathered in Montreal by Marie-France Dubreuil and Patrice Lauzon, and all the other coaches are in pursuit of them?
- Of course. There are top rated couples.
- Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Sizeron work in this group, the uniqueness of which is widely recognized. Tessa Virchu and Scott Moir came to her already in the status of Olympic champions. What is the Montreal team better than you, Marina Zueva, your Russian colleagues?
- Hard to say. The guys work very well, they have a very good school, where great athletes are gathered. In my opinion, it is better to train in a strong group.

- That is the factor of the presence of the leaders Papadakis and Sizerona ...
- ... it is very important, yes.
- You should have become a pair of Americans Madison Chock and Evan Bates. But went to other specialists. Where did the crash happen?
- Several unsuccessful starts - and it all broke. Errors in the World Championships especially affected, and it is impermissible to make mistakes in the World Championships in modern realities in dancing.
- When they leave a coach like Shpilband, does it have a strong effect on psychology?
- Not in this case. I've invested so much in Madison with Evan.
- So now should be an insult to them.
- You see, athletes must try everything, they must go through everything. I absolutely sincerely wish them all the best.
- But surely you told them something like "guys, we haven't said everything yet"?
- Of course, not all. But as a specialist, it seems to me that they should use this chance and try to ride in a group with stronger athletes. It's hard to be leaders.

- Is there a feeling that everything started for you from scratch again?
- Everything is much simpler than you think. I do what I like. I've been doing this all my life. I grow athletes. Like Tessa and Scott, who came to me when they were 14-15 years old. Then came Avonli and Vadim (Nguyen / Kolesnik), Christina Carreira with Anton Ponomarenko (Anthony Ponomarenko, American figure skater, son of the Soviet Olympic champion in 1992 Sergey Ponomarenko - comment). I adore my business. But it could not be that for 30 years of my coaching career I would have only solid stars. The whole story develops in a spiral, you can not always be at the top. In the world in general, the level of dancing on the ice is growing, there are a lot of good couples both at the junior level and at the adult level. In Russia, the dances also added on all levels.
- In Russia, success is measured by four-year Olympic cycles.
- We have the same way.
- What is the task set for the Olympic Games of 2022? Whom does Igor Shpilband intend to take to Beijing?
- I grow up Avon with Vadim, I think that this is a very talented and unusual couple. Behind them the future. Christina and Anton (Carreira / Ponomarenko) also have a chance to join the team at the Olympics. This is also their goal.
“But you especially believe in Nguyen and Kolesnik?”
- Each pair has its strengths and weaknesses. In Avon and Vadim there is a lot of things that are not in other couples. Their skating touches some kind of human strings, which not every athlete is capable of either at the junior or adult levels. This is very rare, but it is felt from the inside. Words are hard to explain. These two people have something from god. Well, how to explain skating Tessa and Scott? I can say the same about Avon with Vadim. Talent.

Tango - not the "apple"
- Who is the world's leading informal leader in this talent and feelings?
- I can not say.
- Are Papadakis and Sizeron the leaders for the coming years or is it impossible to talk about them so confidently?
- I am always very wary of looking into the future, it is easier for me to tell about the past.
- Do you like the French?
- Yes, they like it, they have a lot of strong qualities - a great horse, great lines,

 

[Lara111]

Igor Shpilband: Sinitsina and Katsalapov have the best tango in the world season
08:46
Igor Shpilband
© RIA News / Vladimir Pesnya

American coach Igor Shpilband told Anatoly Samokhvalov how divinely talented his junior couple of Vietnamese American are Avon Nguyen and Ukrainian Vadim Kolesnik, how attractive Alexander Stepanov is and what Nikita Katsalapov’s dance resembles a true Argentine tango, which is not at all Yabloko.
Virchu and Moir have talent, Nguyen and Kolesnik also
- Igor, do you agree that the best of ice dancing was gathered in Montreal by Marie-France Dubreuil and Patrice Lauzon, and all the other coaches are in pursuit of them?
- Of course. There are top rated couples.
- Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Sizeron work in this group, the uniqueness of which is widely recognized. Tessa Virchu and Scott Moir came to her already in the status of Olympic champions. What is the Montreal team better than you, Marina Zueva, your Russian colleagues?
- Hard to say. The guys work very well, they have a very good school, where great athletes are gathered. In my opinion, it is better to train in a strong group.

- That is the factor of the presence of the leaders Papadakis and Sizerona ...
- ... it is very important, yes.
- You should have become a pair of Americans Madison Chock and Evan Bates. But went to other specialists. Where did the crash happen?
- Several unsuccessful starts - and it all broke. Errors in the World Championships especially affected, and it is impermissible to make mistakes in the World Championships in modern realities in dancing.
- When they leave a coach like Shpilband, does it have a strong effect on psychology?
- Not in this case. I've invested so much in Madison with Evan.
- So now should be an insult to them.
- You see, athletes must try everything, they must go through everything. I absolutely sincerely wish them all the best.
- But surely you told them something like "guys, we haven't said everything yet"?
- Of course, not all. But as a specialist, it seems to me that they should use this chance and try to ride in a group with stronger athletes. It's hard to be leaders.

- Is there a feeling that everything started for you from scratch again?
- Everything is much simpler than you think. I do what I like. I've been doing this all my life. I grow athletes. Like Tessa and Scott, who came to me when they were 14-15 years old. Then came Avonli and Vadim (Nguyen / Kolesnik), Christina Carreira with Anton Ponomarenko (Anthony Ponomarenko, American figure skater, son of the Soviet Olympic champion in 1992 Sergey Ponomarenko - comment). I adore my business. But it could not be that for 30 years of my coaching career I would have only solid stars. The whole story develops in a spiral, you can not always be at the top. In the world in general, the level of dancing on the ice is growing, there are a lot of good couples both at the junior level and at the adult level. In Russia, the dances also added on all levels.
- In Russia, success is measured by four-year Olympic cycles.
- We have the same way.
- What is the task set for the Olympic Games of 2022? Whom does Igor Shpilband intend to take to Beijing?
- I grow up Avon with Vadim, I think that this is a very talented and unusual couple. Behind them the future. Christina and Anton (Carreira / Ponomarenko) also have a chance to join the team at the Olympics. This is also their goal.
“But you especially believe in Nguyen and Kolesnik?”
- Each pair has its strengths and weaknesses. In Avon and Vadim there is a lot of things that are not in other couples. Their skating touches some kind of human strings, which not every athlete is capable of either at the junior or adult levels. This is very rare, but it is felt from the inside. Words are hard to explain. These two people have something from god. Well, how to explain skating Tessa and Scott? I can say the same about Avon with Vadim. Talent.

Tango - not the "apple"
- Who is the world's leading informal leader in this talent and feelings?
- I can not say.
- Are Papadakis and Sizeron the leaders for the coming years or is it impossible to talk about them so confidently?
- I am always very wary of looking into the future, it is easier for me to tell about the past.
- Do you like the French?
- Yes, they like it, they have a lot of strong qualities - a great horse, great lines,

I find it's strange that there is so much emphasis on N/K strength in Igor's interview and C/P are mentioned only once and in passing. I am wondering what it means....

 

[Amantide]

Wow.

The Spanish Nationals Rhythm Dance is a really really good example of the difference between the level base value and GOE really impacting on the result.

Hurtardo Khaliavin

TR1 - Level 4
TR2 - Level 3
Steps - Level 3
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz

TR1 - Level 1
TR2 - Level 2
Steps - Level 2
Twizzles - Level 3/Level 4
Lift - Level 4

Smart/Diaz - win the rhythm dance

Hurtardo/Khaliavin flubbed the twizzles and the impact of getting negative GOE - which sometimes seems to be used far more freely to punish teams - resulted in the higher levels (particularly the way better levels on the Tango Romantica) being cancelled out. In previous years, having a better levels like Hurtardo/Khaliavin did would have given them a bigger buffer for a mistake elsewhere in the program.

Also, they gave Smart/Diaz higher GOE on the level 2 step sequence which basically all but cancelled out the technical benefit of Hurtardo/Khaliavin's level 3.

http://www.fedhielo.com/images/resultados/CEsp_2018/CESP2018_SeniorIceDance_RD_Scores.pdf

I really feel that the levels Hurtardo/Khaliavin got should have counted for more than a few tenths of a point.

Something rotten in the land of ID, me think. I do not like this, AT ALL!

 

[MarieM]

I find it's strange that there is so much emphasis on N/K strength in Igor's interview and C/P are mentioned only once and in passing. I am wondering what it means....

This interview is politiks from start to finish. As usual with him.

 

[Bigbird]

Wait for it even more if Madi and Evan really improve under Marie France and Patch. Haha....

 

[Andora]

I find it's strange that there is so much emphasis on N/K strength in Igor's interview and C/P are mentioned only once and in passing. I am wondering what it means....

Is it still looking unlikely for Christina to go to the Olympics? He may be playing a better long game if so....

 

[Dobre]

Is it still looking unlikely for Christina to go to the Olympics? He may be playing a better long game if so....

The question was about 2022 Beijing. Unless Carreira or Kolesnik can gain expedited citizenship, it's unlikely either Carreira or Kolesnik will have citizenship for an Olympics prior to 2026.