The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

[Karen-W]

It was obvious what those judges were trying to do. They focussed specifically on dumping the Mrazeks and LaLa. I don't think these kind of judging blocks forming can ever be prevented, but the IDTC could at least try to make it more difficult for the judges to pull something like this off.

Well, the IDTC started down that path long before Rettstatt became IDTC Chair. The moment they started to judge the dancers separately for their step sequences & twizzle sequences and didn't knock the entire team down to the lower level achieved as well as reduced the points gap between the levels of those elements, it made it a lot easier on the judges to play more games with GOE and potentially impact the results. Yes, the addition of the choreo elements has accelerated that trend, but it was there in place with the start of the 2018-19 season.

 

[her grace]

I don’t think La/La were really dropped at Worlds. They were beaten by C/P and Smart/Dieck, whose FDs were more fully realized concepts. I mean, I could argue about S/D—they might be best at dancing in the air (lifts) rather than on the ice, but the lifts combined with choreo elements got them a lot of deserved points under the current judging rules. And L/L’s program concept wasn’t particularly memorable.

 

[Debbie S]

combine that with papergate or whatever the kids wanna call it these days with C/B at Skate America,

I agree Shawn's feedback should have been done privately, but I don't think this is any sort of scandal. C/B don't train in the U.S. so it's not easy for U.S. judges/officials to get to their rink and give them feedback/monitoring during the season, like other USFS top skaters/teams get. So it makes sense that they would receive feedback during a comp.

I don't think an official practice is the best venue but maybe they couldn't get ice in LP earlier in the week. What you described doesn't seem any different from providing them feedback after watching them do a runthrough at their home rink. But Shawn should have realized how it would look and should have worked harder to avoid any appearance of favoritism. Although the calls C/B got don't seem to reflect favoritism.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I had a dancer competing on the Grand Prix message me last week thanking Thomas and I for our videos that explain some of the finer details in-depth, to help that skater understand more. It shouldn’t be like that.

You're doing the Great Consciousness's work @tony and @thvu .

 

[angi]

I agree Shawn's feedback should have been done privately, but I don't think this is any sort of scandal. C/B don't train in the U.S. so it's not easy for U.S. judges/officials to get to their rink and give them feedback/monitoring during the season, like other USFS top skaters/teams get. So it makes sense that they would receive feedback during a comp.

Apologies, but that's a terrible reasoning to why it's acceptable for the current head of the IDTC and the Skate America technical controller to give feedback to a team during the competition he will be judging them in, and of course, without extending that courtesy to any other team that is present there. The fact that it's even perceived as justifiable or not a big deal shows how bad the current state of ice dance is.

 

[tony]

I agree Shawn's feedback should have been done privately, but I don't think this is any sort of scandal. C/B don't train in the U.S. so it's not easy for U.S. judges/officials to get to their rink and give them feedback/monitoring during the season, like other USFS top skaters/teams get. So it makes sense that they would receive feedback during a comp.

I don't think an official practice is the best venue but maybe they couldn't get ice in LP earlier in the week. What you described doesn't seem any different from providing them feedback after watching them do a runthrough at their home rink. But Shawn should have realized how it would look and should have worked harder to avoid any appearance of favoritism. Although the calls C/B got don't seem to reflect favoritism.

Point being if Shawn is going to hand their coach a set of notes for each element as the technical controller of said event, then one or all of them could've mentioned something to a team like FB/C as well especially with these not-so-clear rules. Shawn is the head of the ice dance technical committee for the ISU. Not Chock/Bates' advisor. And that's if one were to see all of the actions as ethical to start with.

But I don't think for one minute that it's ethical to be on said panel, on official competition practice ice, and give feedback to one team just before the start of the competition when as we saw with the Finland press conferences, other teams get little to no explanation of stuff.

 

[marbri]

I don’t think La/La were really dropped at Worlds. They were beaten by C/P and Smart/Dieck, whose FDs were more fully realized concepts. I mean, I could argue about S/D—they might be best at dancing in the air (lifts) rather than on the ice, but the lifts combined with choreo elements got them a lot of deserved points under the current judging rules. And L/L’s program concept wasn’t particularly memorable.

I think you need to look closer at the ordinals they got ( and Mrazeks as well ) to clearly see there was a bloc of four absolutely trying to drop them to the benefit of others. That doesn't mean to the benefit of those above them, but rather those below them.

Anyway, it's yesterdays news. This is all a discussion because I suggested, after it was suggested to me to go back to Skate to Milan, that we go back further to last years worlds

 

[skatfan]

I don’t think La/La were really dropped at Worlds. They were beaten by C/P and Smart/Dieck, whose FDs were more fully realized concepts. I mean, I could argue about S/D—they might be best at dancing in the air (lifts) rather than on the ice, but the lifts combined with choreo elements got them a lot of deserved points under the current judging rules. And L/L’s program concept wasn’t particularly memorable.

I agree. La/La have beautiful skating but they managed to make A Bridge Over Troubled Waters boring. The other two couples also skated well and made an impact on the audience. I do think their RD this season works (for me) even though some thinks it reads immature.

 

[marbri]

Point being if Shawn is going to hand their coach a set of notes for each element as the technical controller of said event, then one or all of them could've mentioned something to a team like FB/C as well especially with these not-so-clear rules. Shawn is the head of the ice dance technical committee for the ISU. Not Chock/Bates' advisor. And that's if one were to see all of the actions as ethical to start with.

But I don't think for one minute that it's ethical to be on said panel, on official competition practice ice, and give feedback to one team just before the start of the competition when as we saw with the Finland press conferences, other teams get little to no explanation of stuff.

Can you find out about this and clarify what the rule is once and for all?

What Debbie S seems to be suggesting and trying to justify is that it's okay because the American didn't have another opportunity to advise an American team before the competition. The American who happens to be the head of the IDTC and working that competition. It boggles my mind that some people don't see the problem here.

I know for a fact over a decade ago that was NOT allowed (against the rules) and I was told that by a high ranking ISU official at the time. They also acknowledged the rule gets broken

 

[Debbie S]

Can you find out about this and clarify what the rule is once and for all?

What Debbie S seems to be suggesting and trying to justify is that it's okay because the American didn't have another opportunity to advise an American team before the competition. The American who happens to be the head of the IDTC and working that competition. It boggles my mind that some people don't see the problem here.

I know for a fact over a decade ago that was NOT allowed (against the rules) and I was told that by a high ranking ISU official at the time. They also acknowledged the rule gets broken

Are you saying there is a rule that anyone on the IDTC is not allowed to give feedback/monitoring to any team, ever? Are IDTC members allowed to coach and choreograph? B/c Kaitlyn Weaver does plenty of that.

As I said in my post, the feedback should have been done at another time. And I agree, and have stated in previous posts, that all teams should receive a clear explanation of the rules and calls. If they are doing something wrong in practice, they should find out. I think those things have been communicated at various times in the past, maybe not consistently. Shawn (or someone) did tell FB/C that they needed to change their RD music b/c of the timing of the song's release (not commenting on the issue of decade themes, just pointing that out).

 

[Andrea82]

But I don't think for one minute that it's ethical to be on said panel, on official competition practice ice, and give feedback to one team just before the start of the competition when as we saw with the Finland press conferences, other teams get little to no explanation of stuff.

According to ISU Code of Ethics, he should not give them any feedback in the 60 days before the competition, let alone during practice:

An ISU Official assigned to an ISU Event, the Olympic Winter Games, the Winter Youth Olympic Games, or Challenger Series competition may not provide monitoring or feedback to a Skater who is competing at that same competition during the 60 days before the date of the competition’s first Official Practice.

 

[marbri]

Are you saying there is a rule that anyone on the IDTC is not allowed to give feedback/monitoring to any team, ever? Are IDTC members allowed to coach and choreograph? B/c Kaitlyn Weaver does plenty of that.

As I said in my post, the feedback should have been done at another time. And I agree, and have stated in previous posts, that all teams should receive a clear explanation of the rules and calls. If they are doing something wrong in practice, they should find out. I think those things have been communicated at various times in the past, maybe not consistently. Shawn (or someone) did tell FB/C that they needed to change their RD music b/c of the timing of the song's release (not commenting on the issue of decade themes, just pointing that out).

I said at the competition they are working.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The problem with just tracking ordinals is that a judge might have two teams 2/3, but seven points apart, while another judge might have 2 through 7 or 10 within four points of each other. Even knowing their score will be tossed, they can also low-ball by aiming to be the lowest within the corridor, leaving another low score in the calculation, or the opposite, stretching to the limit, so that another high score is in the calculation. Those are only two considerations, especially when none of this is statistically significant, given the small number of inputs. There are moving parts that need to be coordinated not only for collusion, but for the poker aspects of knowing your colleagues making good predictions based on prior scoring and prior interactions with similar panel composition.

 

[Karen-W]

The problem with just tracking ordinals is that a judge might have two teams 2/3, but seven points apart, while another judge might have 2 through 7 or 10 within four points of each other. Even knowing their score will be tossed, they can also low-ball by aiming to be the lowest within the corridor, leaving another low score in the calculation, or the opposite, stretching to the limit, so that another high score is in the calculation. Those are only two considerations, especially when none of this is statistically significant, given the small number of inputs. There are moving parts that need to be coordinated not only for collusion, but for the poker aspects of knowing your colleagues making good predictions based on prior scoring and prior interactions with similar panel composition.

And being confident that all of those judges with whom you're in agreement with are going to be drawn for both segments of the competition...

 

[marbri]

Well I am convinced by all your arguments. It is next to impossible to cheat or collude at competitions. I hereby withdraw everything I have ever written on any competition from 2025 4CC to 2024 Finlandia Trophy. Now what to do with my tinfoil hat

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't think collusion is by any means impossible. People cheat at bridge, count cards, etc. There is just more than one factor than ordinals, and you have to have at least most of your ducks in a row, a very good memory, and a lot of discipline.

 

[Andrea82]

I don't think collusion is by any means impossible. People cheat at bridge, count cards, etc. There is just more than one factor than ordinals, and you have to have at least most of your ducks in a row, a very good memory, and a lot of discipline.

or if you are Ece Esen, just bring to the judging seat a sheet with all the PCS marks to hide behind your judging papers

 

[Tesla]

Frankly, I think this is all ridiculous. This GP season doesn’t seem that much different from past GP seasons and won’t really matter the second half of the season once everyone has more time with their programs.

 

[Lanie]

Poor Paul. Tossed aside like yesterdays news.

Paul, with his guitar, to ANL, singing I'M JUST SECOND HAND NEWWWSSSSS

 

[Orm Irian]

Frankly, I think this is all ridiculous. This GP season doesn’t seem that much different from past GP seasons and won’t really matter the second half of the season once everyone has more time with their programs.

What's mostly made it feel different are the unexpected returns, the sheer number of withdrawals - across all disciplines, not just ice dance - and the prominence given to Skate to Milano, which made it feel like the season had properly started way before it usually does.

 

[vireo]

They should take a peek at SA while there are there as well. Same guy in charge.

The tech panel calls were harsh at Skate America. The trend in the second half half of the GP season was toward stricter calling.

 

[BittyBug]

Well this season certainly has brought the dance drama and not in good ways, and I agree with whoever previously said that this year’s RDs are wretched and eminently skippable. There less than a handful worth watching.

But regarding Resttatt seemingly providing feedback during a SKAM practice session: his actions were recorded and are or at least were circulating on the internet - has anyone filed a complaint with the ISU?

 

[lauravvv]

I also find it very interesting that Reed/Ambulevicius qualifying is never questioned.

I think the only issue about that is the underscoring of Guignard/Fabbri. They and their programs (the RD, in particular) really were far from their best, but those scores were still two low for skates without any huge mistakes.

Z/K didn’t beat anyone they shouldn’t have at both their events. They didn’t rob anyone. Now R/A, on the other hand . . . .

Through no fault of their own (I mean Reed/Ambrulevicius). They skated very well indeed, and I personally think their scores were deserved, but Guignard/Fabbri were underscored (see above).

But that's sport. IMO, a big question this fall has been the overscoring of R/A.

I don't think Reed/Ambrulevicius were overscored in any of their events. Their scores both at Grand Prix de France and Skate Canada were slightly below their personal bests in the RD and FD, so nothing shocking in that sense. And, as it has already been noted many times, unlike most other teams, they were ready and peaked early because of the Olympic qualification event. They even beat Fear/Gibson in the latter's home event (the new Bolero Cup) which was the first competition of the season for both teams, the only difference being their state of preparation. As for the Grand Prix events, Reed/Ambrulevicius skated very well in all senses and aspects there. You may not be objective because you don't particularly like them and their programs. The real issue at Grand Prix de France was not that they or even Davis/Smolkin were overscored (which they were not), but that Guinard/Fabbri were underscored (see my response to @Tinycities above.

As for Lajoie/Lagha at Skate Canada, they may have been underscored a bit too, but the real problem which cost them were the '!' which they got on the choreo sequences in both of their programs, plus, the levels on some other elements (the FD).

 

[Areski]

I agree. La/La have beautiful skating but they managed to make A Bridge Over Troubled Waters boring. The other two couples also skated well and made an impact on the audience. I do think their RD this season works (for me) even though some thinks it reads immature.

I like both of their programs for this season (however I clearly prefer their FD), their RD concept might seem silly but that's one of my maybe 5 RDs in senior teams that I've watched this season that is memorable, works well with the music selection & which doesn't come across as clunky. My favourite RD is likely the one of Reed/Ambrulevicius.

 

[her grace]

Through no fault of their own (I mean Reed/Ambrulevicius). They skated very well indeed, and I personally think their scores were deserved, but Guignard/Fabbri were underscored (see above).

Agree that it's not R/A's fault when the judges/callers make the scoring decisions.

As for the Grand Prix events, Reed/Ambrulevicius skated very well in all senses and aspects there. You may not be objective because you don't particularly like them and their programs. The real issue at Grand Prix de France was not that they or even Davis/Smolkin were overscored (which they were not), but that Guinard/Fabbri were underscored (see my response to @Tinycities above.

Hard disagree here. R/A do not skate well in all senses and aspects. They have very good presentation and confidence, but their skating skills are weak(er) in comparison to the best teams and their program compositions are easy. R/A have understood and interpreted the RDs better than most the past two seasons, which has been well-rewarded. To me, that doesn't cover up their basic technical deficiencies. It's inconceivable that they score in the 200s while teams with much harder programs and who also have decent presentation and confidence languish in the middle of the pack. It's not just G/F who could literally skate circles around R/A.

 

[Areski]

Because they didn’t skate clean.

If Piper and Paul skated clean they would have easily been 3-4 or more points ahead after the RD and would have had a nice cushion for the win.

The plan didn’t work out because Piper and Paul needed to be clean and were not.

Ok, but do you seriously think that Piper's twizzles deserved base level when we saw more severe errors in execution or missing features getting little to no punishment at all? Either way I don't buy into those conspiracy theories that are gaining popularity here that the judges work in collusion to do this or that. The real problem is the lack of of consistency of calls between various competitions for me and the biases if not some outright corrupted behaviour of specific judges. And the RD idea of ISU for this season is a miss.