Programs that make you feel uncomfortable

[Deleted member 40371]

I'm not a fan of "Holocaust On Ice" performances either and I had managed to forget that... uh... whatever that other thing was supposed to be. *shudders* (While it's a pity we won't see any more John Kerrs in a kilt or programs like D/W's Bollywood that actually made the effort to consult real dancers/experts and translate their moves the best they could in the ice dance format, I don't really miss most of the folk dance ODs...)

I just hope that people who understand why "Generic Eastern European" is not a good concept for folk dance also understand that various Aboriginal cultures -- that btw are real CULTURES and not just some exotic raw material that you don't have to have any real familiarity with & understanding of because oooh look how exotic -- are even more heterogenous, so lumping e.g. Indian and Australian aboriginal cultures together to make a "generic Aboriginal" program (without showing any real understanding/nuance of said cultures and their attributes) is wayyyy more "what the efff?!" than "generic Eastern European". I mean, REALLY.

Well, you are being self contrary, the rules were that the OD be a folk dance, and Bollywoood is not a form of folk dance. People would have being up in arms if a team had decided to use Chicago (or La La Land in present circumstance) music and danced to the it and called it a Hollywood folk dance. So D/W's dance was just a generic dance that was flouting the rules. They got lucky because it was advertised as a Bollywood dance and not as a folk dance.

 

[nimi]

Well, you are being self contrary, the rules were that the OD be a folk dance, and Bollywoood is not a form of folk dance. People would have being up in arms if a team had decided to use Chicago (or La La Land in present circumstance) music and danced to the it and called it a Hollywood folk dance. So D/W's dance was just a generic dance that was flouting the rules. They got lucky because it was advertised as a Bollywood dance and not as a folk dance.

My read on the D/W program was that it went for an Indian folk dance as depicted in Bollywood movies, where the "villagers starting to dance" type of musical scenes and other "traditional Indian dance" scenes happen. See the Dola Re Dola dance scene that clearly inspired D/W and is part of their music cut.

What exactly in D/W's costuming or choreo do you see as Bollywood equivalent of Chicago or La La Land?

If you want to make a "Hollywood folk dance" comparison, IMO better (although far from perfect) example would be a team doing a Country/Western inspired dance consulting actual dancers from that scene and using selections from Hollywood soundtracks to a couple of Western movies made in 00's that feature "local people dancing" type of scenes and Country&Western inspired musical score. Would you have been "up in arms" about that, no matter how well done, because that's Hollywood and therefore "just a generic dance flouting the rules"?

 

[paskatefan]

Philippe Candeloro's "George of the Jungle" program - so infantile! I did enjoy many of his Olympic eligible programs. This one he did as a pro, and it just was so embarrassing, IMO.

 

[viennese]

The Muff Muncher

I could not believe what I was seeing. I thought it had to be mistake. And she really SMASHED into his head.

Whatever the hell they are doing, they are really going for it.

 

[viennese]

Katarina Witt and The Muppets

I believe East Germany had just started airing Muppet Show episodes around that time.

NO! I freakin' love the Muppets theme song. One of the best TV themes of all time. I love that she skated to such fun and rocking music.

 

[Eeyora1]

Philippe Candeloro's "George of the Jungle" program - so infantile! I did enjoy many of his Olympic eligible programs. This one he did as a pro, and it just was so embarrassing, IMO.

I’m probably one of few people who often felt uncomfortable during most Candeloro exhibitions and pro numbers. But then again I was a kid. I still don’t get the sex appeal.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

My read on the D/W program was that it went for an Indian folk dance as depicted in Bollywood movies, where the "villagers starting to dance" type of musical scenes and other "traditional Indian dance" scenes happen. See the Dola Re Dola dance scene that clearly inspired D/W and is part of their music cut.

What exactly in D/W's costuming or choreo do you see as Bollywood equivalent of Chicago or La La Land?

If you want to make a "Hollywood folk dance" comparison, IMO better (although far from perfect) example would be a team doing a Country/Western inspired dance consulting actual dancers from that scene and using selections from Hollywood soundtracks to a couple of Western movies made in 00's that feature "local people dancing" type of scenes and Country&Western inspired musical score. Would you have been "up in arms" about that, no matter how well done, because that's Hollywood and therefore "just a generic dance flouting the rules"?

Haha, so for Kajra re part was Indian Folk dance in a pub. It was a mish-mash of three songs from two different movies as well, so it wasn't even consistant, one had a Bengali culture (Dola re), the other had a Up, Bihar/UP look to it. That was not a folk dance by any stretch of imagination, and Bollywood, Tollywood or Mollywood dances are not folk dances on its own. Also, you could even have a Tango in a Bollywood will that be a Indian folk dance then.

So, it was flouting the rules and was a cultural approximation. D/W's dress is a kind of dress most middle class Indians will have to attend occasions like wedding, it wasn't anything specific for a folk dance.
so they were just using Bollywood music and danced a Bollywood routine, if this was there FD then it would have been nice but not a folk dance and hence like La la land.

 

[Areski]

Philippe Candeloro's "George of the Jungle" program - so infantile! I did enjoy many of his Olympic eligible programs. This one he did as a pro, and it just was so embarrassing, IMO.

One of the cringiest for sure. ''Red Cat'' of Stephane Lambiel is not too far though in that aspect.

 

[paskatefan]

I’m probably one of few people who often felt uncomfortable during most Candeloro exhibitions and pro numbers. But then again I was a kid. I still don’t get the sex appeal.

We saw him in "Improv-Ice" (December 2000, Phila., PA), and he actually stripped down to just his underwear! That wasn't the reason we attended the show (which we mostly loved). A friend of mine who follows figure skating was watching the show on TV (it aired as it was taking place). Her mom, who generally appreciates the sport, walked into the room, and just couldn't believe her eyes that he went THAT far.

I'll have to check out Stephane's program to see what you mean, Areski.

 

[Lovemyvike]

Kovtun's 2016 Beethoven program. Still not sure if it was supposed to be intentionally funny or just crazy...

 

[Skate Talker]

I’m probably one of few people who often felt uncomfortable during most Candeloro exhibitions and pro numbers. But then again I was a kid. I still don’t get the sex appeal.

Well I wasn't a kid - there was no sex appeal. I partially blame his antics for the demise of the pro competitions - made a total farce of them, as did judges who gave him marks for that drek.

 

[nimi]

I'll have to check out Stephane's program to see what you mean, Areski.

It's... quite something. Bold artistic vision, you might say. (Link)
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To go back to being off-topic...

So, it was flouting the rules and was a cultural approximation.

I had to google "what is cultural approximation" and got this:

Cultural approximation can be described both as a process and as an end product at a given time. This is a form of adaptation in which an interactive and mutually beneficial cultural co-existence is rendered possible.

Well, reportedly quite a few Indian & other South Asian folks saw the D/W OD on youtube and sent nice emails to them, so... maybe that counts as 'cultural approximation', if you stretch the concept?

D/W's dress is a kind of dress most middle class Indians will have to attend occasions like wedding, it wasn't anything specific for a folk dance.
so they were just using Bollywood music and danced a Bollywood routine, if this was there FD then it would have been nice but not a folk dance and hence like La la land.

I think D/W's concept was basically Indian wedding ceremony, so...

So, is your position that when middle class Indians attend weddings wearing their traditional garb (as opposed to wedding tuxedos etc.) & they dance wedding dances, there's no "traditional" element to any of it? Is it because middle class Indians are not poor&rural and only dances that poor/rural folks perform(ed) under the watchful eyes of Western ethnographers can be classified as Folk/Country dance in the ISU OD sense (IIRC the definition was quite loose)? Is it because from an European/Western cultural perspective, the most popular form of wedding is White Wedding that originated in Victorian Britain, and the ultimate wedding dance is a "classy" waltz, which replaced older forms of social dances (what we think of as "folk dances"), and therefore anything associated with middle-class weddings IN ANY COUNTRY/CULTURE can't have anything to do with old-timey dance traditions, because our cultural logic must apply everywhere?

So, the Indian equivalent of a "hillbilly program" would've been acceptable, but the "middle class Indian wedding" vibe in costuming & concept and D/W's attempts to incorporate elements of classical Indian dance styles in choreo is unacceptable? Even though ISU's definition of Country/Folk Dance can be interpreted as covering both Classical Indian dance styles as well as the Indian folk & tribal dances? And it's impossible that a Bollywood dance number like Dola Re (which, according to the choreographer "was totally based on classical forms" and included steps from Kathak and Bharatnatyam) could have more in common with some old Indian dance traditions than La La Land has with Appalachian clog dancing, because Hollywood=Bollywood and therefore Dola Re Dola=La La Land?

Okay, then. Let's just agree to disagree!

 

[Scrufflet]

I found last year's Zahorski/Guerreiro SD music--the "blues" part to Christina Aguilera--quite inappropriate, offensive, and uncomfortable to listen to.

Yes! That's the one I hated! It put me off their skating. I didn't watch them further.

 

[Jeanine]

The Hartsell siblings skated an exhib to Jewel's "Foolish Games" (a total angst love song that could not possibly be interpreted otherwise) back in the late 90s or early 2000s. It was so many different kinds of wrong.

They also skated their free program in 1998-1999 to "Romeo and Juliet" ... I never could quite come to terms with that, no matter how well they may have skated...

 

[gkelly]

Has anyone ever made a ballet or opera based on 'Tis Pity She's a Whore? There have been a couple movies: Should a sibling team skate to one of those soundtracks?

 

[paskatefan]

Well, nimi & Areski, I did watch Stephane's "Red Cat" program. It is weird to be sure, but his spins are still to "die for." I can forgive him for this one, since so many of his other programs are memorable.

 

[giselle23]

The Gold Medal in this category goes to Alina Zagitova's cat exhibition. I mean, seriously? It would be hilarious if she wasn't just 15.

ETA: Here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KSweVYaIxA
Whose idea was it to have her wear that costume, which made it look like she was showing skin all the way down the side and over her hip and rear end?

 

[Cherryblossomgal]

Going to be Honest:
- DW Bollywood OD i know people like it but I'm just like "oh god why?"
- As much as I love V/M parts of their Carmen FD tbh
- Evgenia's 9/11 program especially when the sirens start
- Any Holocaust inspired program
- Evgenias "acting" in any of her programs (mouth opening, Hand gestures etc.)

 

[MAXSwagg]

Kovtun's 2016 Beethoven program. Still not sure if it was supposed to be intentionally funny or just crazy...

Both. And I loved it.

 

[Lovemyvike]

Both. And I loved it.

Strangely, I did too. Except it was painful to watch him implode at Worlds.

 

[DreamSkates]

I don't mind the Marilyn Monroe theme for her, but Laurine Lecavelier using "My Heart Belongs to Daddy" in her long program - that could go viral if caught (and not in a good way) by some news outlet.

Yes same feelings here. Liked the beginning but thinking about the words and this young lady.....really?

 

[DreamSkates]

Dominina and Shabalin should have been kicked out of the Olympics for their unapologetically racist disgrace. The fact that the ISU REWARDED that blatant racism by giving them a medal makes me more than a little uncomfortable.

I didn't care for this program at all, but maybe to them it was not racism but an artistic expression of a culture.

 

[ks1227]

One of the cringiest for sure. ''Red Cat'' of Stephane Lambiel is not too far though in that aspect.

OMG I completely forgot about this! I couldn't believe what I was seeing at the time!

 

[Eeyora1]

Anyone who skates to a clown program....or as I like to call it "Creepy Clown" programs.

There have been quite a few over the years.

And while I'm at it, I'll add Mime programs too or as I say "Creepy Mime Programs."

Props to Alexei Bychenko for skating to Pagliacci not in clown garb.

 

[Vagabond]

Has anyone ever made a ballet or opera based on 'Tis Pity She's a Whore? There have been a couple movies: Should a sibling team skate to one of those soundtracks?

There's this. Kinda slow.

And then there's David Bowie's "B" side single called 'Tis Pity She Was a Whore." Perfect material for material for some clueless ice dance team.

The lyrics (or at least one word) would be bleeped on NBC.

 

[Enchanted]

What makes me uncomfortable to watch are accidents and skaters skating in visible pain.

I wish I hadn’t seen the video of Hanyu’s recent fall or Pogorilaya’s recent FS.

In pairs shaky lifts make me uncomfortable and I especially dislike the lifts in which the guy is kneeling down. They always look uneasy. Also in pairs overly romantic programs may make me uncomfortable if the pair has a big age difference with the girl being clearly underage.

 

[Japanfan]

Offensive as that program was, I don't see how the Olympics should be about policing program content, let alone kicking people out of the games for it. I mean, who gets to decide? If I decided as a Jewish person that nobody should be doing Schindler's List because it offends me to see the Holocaust trivialized, do I get to ban that? If D/W had struck a wrong note with the Bollywood program - and they took a risk there - should that have gotten them in trouble?

The only body that could institute a ban would be the ISU, although an organization or country might request that it do so.

If Jewish people took offense at a program that trivialized the Holocaust, they would certainly be entitled to speak up. The film with Robert Begnini arguably trivialized the Holocaust, and some fuss was made about that.

But in the case of D/S, they were claiming to do an Aboriginal folk dance, but did not consult with any Aboriginal people about that IIRC. Then they went and included some very offensive gestures (i.e. the hair pulling) that painted Aboriginals in a negative light. This happened in a country with a sizable First Nations population that during the colonial era was oppressed and not even allowed to create their own cultural products. And these are their cultural products. And that population was represented in the Opening Ceremonies - IDK for sure but this was probably the first Canadian Olympics at which First Nations were represented.

So it's not surprising that First Nations took issue with the dance. They are entitled to be sensitive about their own cultural products, and to ask that those who use them at least make an effort to understand them.

It's about intent and that program was not meant to offend. Unless you think they are racist, which I do not believe.

But they did not show respect, which is in itself offensive. And I do think they were racist, though probably out ignorance, not hate.

What does it matter? The Indigenous people of my country were offended and upset, and I was offended and upset with them. I could never be offended on the same level because I am not of their culture, but I was still offended.

The dances that are done of another culture should be carefully researched and consultation made with that culture. That was how Davis and White did it, was it not? And that was certainly, absolutely, how O'Brien and Merriman did it - over a year's worth of careful consultation with Indigenous elders to ensure that their Aboriginal program, that their costumes, were not offensive.

ITA.

The why didn’t domnina and shabalin get banned by Canada from entering due to violations of their hate speech laws? Canada and British Columbia both have laws that could have banned d/s for displaying hateful images!

Because the First Nations people of the province decided to use the situation as an opportunity for dialogue and to share their culture with D/S and therefore with the figure skating world/Olympic TV-watching audience at large.

I think that shows them to be very gracious and forgiving hosts.

And IMO although D/S looked silly bringing the Indigenous blanket that they were given as a gift into the Kiss N Cry with them, it was a gesture of respect and an apology of sorts, so therefore appropriate.

Many people would not have handled the situation so graciously as First Nations, and there's a lesson in that.

 

[caseyedwards]

The only body that could institute a ban would be the ISU, although an organization or country might request that it do so.

If Jewish people took offense at a program that trivialized the Holocaust, they would certainly be entitled to speak up. The film with Robert Begnini arguably trivialized the Holocaust, and some fuss was made about that.

But in the case of D/S, they were claiming to do an Aboriginal folk dance, but did not consult with any Aboriginal people about that IIRC. Then they went and included some very offensive gestures (i.e. the hair pulling) that painted Aboriginals in a negative light. This happened in a country with a sizable First Nations population that during the colonial era was oppressed and not even allowed to create their own cultural products. And these are their cultural products. And that population was represented in the Opening Ceremonies - IDK for sure but this was probably the first Canadian Olympics at which First Nations were represented.

So it's not surprising that First Nations took issue with the dance. They are entitled to be sensitive about their own cultural products, and to ask that those who use them at least make an effort to understand them.



But they did not show respect, which is in itself offensive. And I do think they were racist, though probably out ignorance, not hate.



ITA.



Because the First Nations people of the province decided to use the situation as an opportunity for dialogue and to share their culture with D/S and therefore with the figure skating world at large.

I think that shows them to be very gracious and forgiving hosts.

And IMO although D/S looked silly bringing the Indigenous blanket that they were given as a gift into the Kiss N Cry with them, it was a gesture of respect and an apology of sorts, so therefore appropriate.

Many people would not have handled the situation so graciously as First Nations, and there's a lesson in that.

D/s wore the blankets after the CD Linichuk wore one after the OD.

But the issue has been for me if the dance was so bad all the people with the power to ban the dance should have used their power to do so! So yes First Nations of Canada but also Canadian and British Columbia government decided to take a hands off approach! Using their power to have the dance be done but to bash the dance. I disagree with that approach! They could have bashed the dance and Australia FS Fed to ban the dance by filing a complaint d/s were violating the rules of the OD posted before! Of course it was best for d/s that they didn’t ban the dance! All the people helped them win bronze with the aboriginal OD.

 

[Japanfan]

So yes First Nations of Canada but also Canadian and British Columbia government decided to take a hands off approach!
They could have bashed the dance and Australia FS Fed to ban the dance by filing a complaint d/s were violating the rules of the OD posted before! Of course it was best for d/s that they didn’t ban the dance! All the people helped them win bronze with the aboriginal OD.

First Nations representatives met with D/S to explain their position and introduce D/S to their culture. That's hardly a hands-off approach.

As I understood the situation at the time, First Nations wanted a dialogue, not to have the dance banned. Representations of Indigenous people as savage and primitive are nothing new, and First Nations/Indigenous people have had to live with them for a very long time.

The platform for this dialogue was one of the world's largest stages, so using it to get skaters/audiences to think about how Indigenous people are represented was much more valuable than just banning the dance.

Also, as I said, they were gracious hosts. SFAIK, hosting is a sacred role and responsibility for Indigenous peoples. And I'm sure the First Nations parties involved consulted with the BC and Canadian governments about how to deal with the situation. And more power to all who chose not to punish the Russian ice dancers for an ill-conceived, offensive program that they did not understand to be such.

As I said above, I think their racism was borne of ignorance, not hate.

 

[MsZem]

I think that there is pretty widespread agreement that DomShabs' "aboriginal" OD was in poor taste at the very least, and the criticism was very much warranted. My earlier response was only to the argument that they should have been kicked out of the Olympics for it.

My impression at the time was that they were probably unaware that it was problematic until they performed it in competition (they were not on the GP that season); there are differences in sensitivity to cultural representation between countries and societies. By the time that feedback did start coming in, there wasn't much DomShabs could do. It was too late to get a new OD, and Shabalin was probably in no shape to return to their 2008 OD. IIRC, they did tone down the costumes/makeup a bit. Obviously, it wasn't enough to make that program remotely culturally appropriate.

Linichuk really should have done better by them.