Programs that make you feel uncomfortable

[Vagabond]

Maybe Eteri is not good in english.

Eteri Tutberidze lived and worked in the United States for six years and was married to an American. While her judgment may be poor, her English is not.

 

[TAHbKA]

Zaretski's incest dances. They had that super sexy exhibition they did in Israeli nationals that made pretty much everyone go eeeeeekkkk. Think it was the same time Sasha was experimenting with a horrid blonde. Fortunately it was a short phase.

 

[nimi]

Nothing. But music is not the only way in which a folk dance can lack authenticity (or sensitivity).

Could you point to some especially bad examples from Vancouver era, then? E.g. costuming/choreography that lacked authenticity/sensitivity almost as bad as the whole "let's just wear illusion mesh & shrubbery & buffoonish facial expressions and top it off with some drag-her-by-the-hair choreo and call that 'Aboriginal'" thing?

 

[quartz]

Or, checking to see if the carpet matches the curtains.

There’s probably no carpet. Everyone rips that out nowadays.

 

[Areski]

So you would have been fine with a "folk dance" combining stereotypical hillbilly aesthetic with vaguely Russian folk dance gestures and Irish neo-folk music? After all, all those 3 cultures can be classified as "White" and/or "Indo-European" and the people look pretty similar, although their cultures are different.

Obviously I wouldn't be.

 

[MsZem]

Could you point to some especially bad examples from Vancouver era, then? E.g. costuming/choreography that lacked authenticity/sensitivity almost as bad as the whole "let's just wear illusion mesh & shrubbery & buffoonish facial expressions and top it off with some drag-her-by-the-hair choreo and call that 'Aboriginal'" thing?

Oh, DomShabs certainly took it to the extreme, and I've noted that in my previous posts.

But folk ODs do not necessarily succeed at authentic cultural representation. I'm not sure what culture these costumes were supposed to represent, and slutty cowboy isn't exactly a folk concept either. Plus Generic Eastern European with extra ornamentation. This was also the same year that Ilinykh got shot at the end of the Schindler's List FD, which IMO was as bad as anything that went on in the ODs if not worse.

 

[Skate Talker]

If we are talking exhibition then for sure Plushenko's Sex Bomb is beyond words cringe-worthy.

 

[lala]

Victor Petrenko’s number on a made for tv competition where he skated to Mambo Number 5 with a life-sized doll attached to him.



Was she meant to resemble Oksana?


https://youtu.be/LEZBCRkAg4k

I like Petrenko! I think that is a great idea! Very unusual and funny!

 

[nimi]

But folk ODs do not necessarily succeed at authentic cultural representation. I'm not sure what culture these costumes were supposed to represent, and slutty cowboy isn't exactly a folk concept either. Plus Generic Eastern European with extra ornamentation. This was also the same year that Ilinykh got shot at the end of the Schindler's List FD, which IMO was as bad as anything that went on in the ODs if not worse.

I'm not a fan of "Holocaust On Ice" performances either and I had managed to forget that... uh... whatever that other thing was supposed to be. *shudders* (While it's a pity we won't see any more John Kerrs in a kilt or programs like D/W's Bollywood that actually made the effort to consult real dancers/experts and translate their moves the best they could in the ice dance format, I don't really miss most of the folk dance ODs...)

I just hope that people who understand why "Generic Eastern European" is not a good concept for folk dance also understand that various Aboriginal cultures -- that btw are real CULTURES and not just some exotic raw material that you don't have to have any real familiarity with & understanding of because oooh look how exotic -- are even more heterogenous, so lumping e.g. Indian and Australian aboriginal cultures together to make a "generic Aboriginal" program (without showing any real understanding/nuance of said cultures and their attributes) is wayyyy more "what the efff?!" than "generic Eastern European". I mean, REALLY.

And that's not even getting to whole colonialism issue and how it might feel like seeing garish and clueless "Aboriginal" caricatures of your culture, evoking the racist depictions of the past (that were used to mock your culture and justify attempted cultural genocide with forced adoptions and forced assimilation etc. etc.) paraded on Olympic stage in 2010.

 

[Vagabond]

We are seeing the same lack of authenticity in the Short Dance as in the Original Dance.

If the Rolling Stones, the Eagles, and Ed Sheeran are Latin, then I am Ibrahim Ferrer.

 

[caseyedwards]

What does it matter? The Indigenous people of my country were offended and upset, and I was offended and upset with them. I could never be offended on the same level because I am not of their culture, but I was still offended. It was a disgusting piece, completely vile.



Yes, I do think they're racist. And extremely arrogant for defending their revolting program instead of accepting that there were issues and making legitimate changes. And I think their choreographer is racist and arrogant, and I think any who defend what they did and how they did it are racist.



Of course that is blackface, if they paint her face black. And it is not okay. She can dress up in Tiana's dress, that's fine. But why paint her skin? But the blame in that situation is on her parents, not on the five year old who at that age, does not know color or race unless she is being told so.



That is idiocy. There is such a thing as multiculturalism, you know. Here, we have a lot of Chinese restaurants. And Turkish, and Japanese, and Indian, and Thai, and Vietnamese, and so on. We share our food with each other.



The dances that are done of another culture should be carefully researched and consultation made with that culture. That was how Davis and White did it, was it not? And that was certainly, absolutely, how O'Brien and Merriman did it - over a year's worth of careful consultation with Indigenous elders to ensure that their Aboriginal program, that their costumes, were not offensive.



I do think they are racist. And the second they were told the program was offensive and they went into defense mode, the intent of the program absolutely became to offend. And seriously? No intention? He dragged her by her hair. Come on.

The why didn’t domnina and shabalin get banned by Canada from entering due to violations of their hate speech laws? Canada and British Columbia both have laws that could have banned d/s for displaying hateful images!

Isu rules are very clear!

“Country/Folk Dance - it must reflect the region or country that it comes from. Skaters are encouraged to use their own country dances, if possible”

People chose not to file immediate complaints with isu to get d/s OD program banned.

First Nations also agreed to meet with d/s without the precondition that they never do that od again.

You can see how the racism was empowered by isu, Canada, and First Nations

Offensive as that program was, I don't see how the Olympics should be about policing program content, let alone kicking people out of the games for it. I mean, who gets to decide? If I decided as a Jewish person that nobody should be doing Schindler's List because it offends me to see the Holocaust trivialized, do I get to ban that? If D/W had struck a wrong note with the Bollywood program - and they took a risk there - should that have gotten them in trouble?

Claiming that the ISU rewarded blatant racism is a stretch. The competition did have three segments, and for all their limitations (mainly due to his knee issues) DomShabs were good skaters and World Champions. They could have skated to anything and gotten good marks, which is why it was so disappointing that they chose to do the so-called Aboriginal dance.

They did drop after the OD, of course. And while no other folk OD was that bad, there were certainly quite a few that were less than faithful representations of the culture they purported to represent.


Those aren't programs, they're accidents. Presumably nobody on FSU enjoys watching skaters get injured.

If D/S had done a Russian folk dance or a tango there would have been comparisons to others or themselves. When this was an issue I did watch d/s Russian folk dance and shabalins knee seemingly could no longer move in ways that were on display in their Russian dance. And a tango? Forget it! I don’t believe their PCs would have been the same for their aboriginal dance. But even if PCs was similar than what about twizzling or steps or lifts? Something would have had to give.

 

[gotoschool]

S/B FD this season, the music Ugh

Marin LP too much yunaesque, I hate it.

the Parsons FD 2017-18 and the Shibs SD 2012-13, we had a master piece with the Duchesnay with that music, I don´t care if it is tribute or not, anyone else using it looks bad in my opinion.

Mao: Carmen at 15 yo, she looks cute skating it but it is Carmen, so it looks cute and silly.

Alina Don Quijote, probably she is trying to look like this https://youtu.be/hDQ43Qb1Guw?t=114, but actually she looks like this https://youtu.be/rdFlF4i4yhs?t=59

First to address the question in the thread, I agree with the 9-11 soundtrack giving me the creeps, especially the voiceovers. I also don't like The Show Must Go On music.

In response, I love Mao's Carmen performance. I really like this version of the music which I haven't heard that much. Perhaps I have been sheltered from this piece more than most. I think Mao's performance is a fine mix of adorable and dramatic. I think it is charming and classy and even classic especially considering Mao was only 15. The beautifully erect and symmetrical rotations on the triple flip and loop are followed by the adorable and seemingly unaffected hair twirl. Then, there is the lovely spiral sequence, as Mao carves sweeping, serpentine arcs transitioning from her right to left handed cross grab Biellmann spiral while skating backwards, with the left arm holding the right leg and then the right arm holding the left leg for maximum flexibility with exemplary posture. Then, there is the lovely turn out extension from the fan spiral with a beautiful layback and the picturesque transition with an expressive stretch upwards with the arms. Finally, there are also two beautiful one handed Biellmann spins. and some dramatic flair with the arms on the exit to her jumps and at the end of her performance.


As for Alina, though I think she is lacking a bit in the dancing elegance of a ballerina and could have a little better posture in landing her jumps and in a number of her other movements, I like the performance of Don Quixote overall especially since she certainly has beautiful positions in her spins and the rapid succession of jumps at the end give a sense of the dramatic crescendo in the music especially for a backloaded program, in my opinion. It makes up to a large extent for the slow start. Also, I really liked her cross grab Biellmann spiral in her version of Don Quioxte last year, though unfortunately I think it has been removed from this year's version.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

There’s probably no carpet. Everyone rips that out nowadays.

Okay, does the ceiling match the floor boards, then.

 

[nimi]

We are seeing the same lack of authenticity in the Short Dance as in the Original Dance.

If the Rolling Stones, the Eagles, and Ed Sheeran are Latin, then I am Ibrahim Ferrer.

I'm definitely not an expert of Latin ballroom, but having watched those comps every now and then I think sometimes they use pop songs with "Latin" beat or Latin remixes of current pop hits. (Could somebody more knowledgeable tell me if this is actually the case or is my memory doing tricks on me?)

So, if you think it's okay for "Latin" SDs to try to emulate the Latin ballroom comp style on ice... then I don't see why teams couldn't use the same kind of not-the-most-authentically-Latin songs you could imagine hearing in a ballroom comp, provided the prescribed rhythms are there and recognizable. There isn't anything in the ISU SD rules saying that only "authentic Latin styles" (directly inspired by authentic Latinx people dancing on the streets or whatever) are appropriate, right? Basically, "Latin SD" isn't synonymous with "Latin American folk dance" or something. You're free to think that sucks, of course, but I wouldn't blame the teams basically doing what ISU is asking/allowing them to.

I mean, look at the last season. Piper&Paul did full-on 70s disco because ISU's loose definition of hip hop rhythm allowed that, and V/M did their Prince medley with "Kiss", and people seemed to be fine with those and didn't seem to mind that neither of those music cuts featured an straight-up, "authentic" hip-hop song, because that was not what ISU was asking for, really.

Btw, I can't remember being uncomfortable with any of the so-called "hip hop" programs, mostly just a bit bored and blah with the exception of a few programs (like V/M & Shibs) but looking back... Were there any particularly embarrassing ones I've managed to forget? I don't think any have come up in this thread...

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Eteri Tutberidze lived and worked in the United States for six years and was married to an American. While her judgment may be poor, her English is not.

Ted Flett really missed the boat with that interview.

He really could have asked her some great questions about her coaching, and the ability to produce champions. Instead, he spent most of the time asking her about her beauty regime and the skaters' costumes.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Those aren't programs, they're accidents. Presumably nobody on FSU enjoys watching skaters get injured.

Lol, excuse me if I interpreted it wrong. Hopefully I can live up to your standards one day. Ill try my love. Promise.

If it wasnt a program. maybe it was a horserace? Holiday bake-off? I mean when I was there in Pittsburgh I thought my tickets were for the programs.

 

[VGThuy]

Btw, I can't remember being uncomfortable with any of the "hip hop" programs, mostly just a bit bored with the exception of some programs (like V/M & Shibs) but looking back... Were there any particularly embarrassing ones I've managed to forget? I don't think any have come up in this thread...

I don’t think we got anything like this:

http://basementrejects.com/wp-conte...z-van-waldenberg-fairchild-van-waldenberg.jpg

 

[PRlady]

This thread title conjured up repressed memories of Duchesnay and Duchesnay's 1992 Polka Original Dance

The horror, the horror! The kitch, the kitsch!

Now, I'm off to find some nice Carolina Kostner, Akiko Suzuki, and Janet Lynn programs to use as brain bleach.

Aw, it was cute in an ott way! (I haven't seen that thing in 25 years.)

Any pairs programs where the guy is clearly a mature adult and the girl looks pre-pubescent gives me the icks. There's at least one Russian team in Juniors like that right now, can't remember their names, and I literally couldn't watch them.

Yu/Zhang are badly mismatched but at least she doesn't look 12.

 

[VGThuy]

This thread title conjured up repressed memories of Duchesnay and Duchesnay's 1992 Polka Original Dance

The horror, the horror! The kitch, the kitsch!

Now, I'm off to find some nice Carolina Kostner, Akiko Suzuki, and Janet Lynn programs to use as brain bleach.

Man, who in the ISU thought the polka was a good rhythm to showcase ice dancing during the Olympics?

 

[chapis]

I love Mao's Carmen performance. I really like this version of the music which I haven't heard that much. Perhaps I have been sheltered from this piece more than most. I think Mao's performance is a fine mix of adorable and dramatic. I think it is charming and classy and even classic especially considering Mao was only 15. The beautifully erect and symmetrical rotations on the triple flip and loop are followed by the adorable and seemingly unaffected hair twirl. Then, there is the lovely spiral sequence, as Mao carves sweeping, serpentine arcs transitioning from her right to left handed cross grab Biellmann spiral while skating backwards, with the left arm holding the right leg and then the right arm holding the left leg for maximum flexibility with exemplary posture. Then, there is the lovely turn out extension from the fan spiral with a beautiful layback and the picturesque transition with an expressive stretch upwards with the arms. Finally, there are also two beautiful one handed Biellmann spins. and some dramatic flair with the arms on the exit to her jumps and at the end of her performance.
.

I don´t have problem with her skating, but the concept is not the best IMO. Look at this https://youtu.be/8839BW5awA8?t=63, she looks cute. Cute is not the first idea that comes to my mind when I think about Carmen, thanks God she was not doing sexy moves, it would be worse, but if she being 15 yo had the cute factor they should use to her advantage with an appropriate program as The nutcracker that was perfect . It is like having a program with Ave María doing sexy moves.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

As for Alina, though I think she is lacking a bit in the dancing elegance of a ballerina and could have a little better posture in landing her jumps and in a number of her other movements, I like the performance of Don Quixote overall especially since she certainly has beautiful positions in her spins and the rapid succession of jumps at the end give a sense of the dramatic crescendo in the music especially for a backloaded program, in my opinion. It makes up to a large extent for the slow start. Also, I really liked her cross grab Biellmann spiral in her version of Don Quioxte last year, though unfortunately I think it has been removed from this year's version.

Katherine Healey, a professional dancer and figure skater, probably skated my favourite version of Kitri from Don Quixote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8d2ov28Y2A

 

[gotoschool]

I don´t have problem with her skating, but the concept is not the best IMO. Look at this https://youtu.be/8839BW5awA8?t=63, she looks cute. Cute is not the first idea that comes to my mind when I think about Carmen, thanks God she was not doing sexy moves, it would be worse, but if she being 15 yo had the cute factor they should use to her advantage with an appropriate program as The nutcracker that was perfect . It is like having a program with Ave María doing sexy moves.

I can see your point and thanks for the full HD version of this wonderful performance. I guess it depends on whether people prefer a piece to be faithful to the fiery tragedy of the original or if people just take the piece with its feeling at the moment without consulting or being aware of the original context. I can understand both views especially since many if not most viewers are not familiar with classical operas. I look at this in a more developmental sense. The contrast between Carmen and The Nutcracker is kind of an early example of setting up the contrast between dramatic and fiery and lighter and or ethereal performances that Mao would develop to a much more advanced and refined stage later on.

Besides in my mind, the most attractive performance or gesture is one that isn't overwrought or doesn't draw too much attention to itself like holding a mirror up to nature to show an ideal form in just proportion. Considering Mao's age, I think her hair twirling glance is appropriate in playing the more innocent and genuine role of the childhood sweetheart that fits the spirit of the performance even if it doesn't carry the original context of the opera through to its tragic conclusion. Plus, the exceptional classic refinement in Mao's skating and elements makes the performance more believable and compelling.

 

[jiejie]

I found last year's Zahorski/Guerreiro SD music--the "blues" part to Christina Aguilera--quite inappropriate, offensive, and uncomfortable to listen to.

 

[quartz]

Damn, my pearls are at home, strewn carelessly and recklessly on my dresser. I'm reading this thread and HAVE NOTHING TO CLUTCH!!

 

[Seerek]

Katarina Witt and The Muppets

I believe East Germany had just started airing Muppet Show episodes around that time.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Also the lift that Guinard/Fabbri do where he lifts her in between her legs I think C/L and the Legacs have done it too.

I distinctly remember C/L doing this lift because I was watching a CBC broadcast and Kurt Browning commented that would be a lift you "would only want to do with someone you knew quite well." HAHAHAHA. True

And I LOVE Tessa and Scott's "cunniliftus"!! Giggle

 

[3T3T]

I’d say both Trusova’s short and Panenkova’s free from this years JGP. Totally inappropriate for 13/14 year old girls. I’m not sure what Danil G was thinking when he came up with those programmes. I’d also agree with D/S Aboriginal Short Dance.

 

[aftershocks]

A 13 year old girl skating to Big Spender in this dress and in that manner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnc3UwCiIBU
Sexualization of a child makes me uncomfortable.

You beat me to the punch in this thread @IceAlisa. I already mentioned this about Trusova weeks ago in a thread in GSD re the unfortunate 'Lolita syndrome' that we see in the ladies event quite often these days. A few posters acted as if they didn't understand what I meant. A 17-year-old skater in one of the same JGP events Trusova won also skated to sexually suggestive lyrics. But these from Hey, Big Spender are , because Trusova surely doesn't have any idea of the meaning: "I don't pop my cork for every guy I see ..." Really? I'm surprised that Ted Barton didn't say anything aside from announcing the music, singer, songwriter.

Trusova's program came to my mind immediately, as soon as I saw this thread title. The music, costume and underlying intent whether conscious or unconscious, is bad enough. To add in those lyrics at the same time! Did the lyrics go over the heads of the coaches and choreographer? What about the judges? Trusova is obviously very talented, but there's no reason to dress her up like that and have her skate to that music with those lyrics. Although the costume is not too revealing, it is a bit mature. Overall, giving Trusova this type of program I think is very irresponsible, and probably the most blatant example of what is going on and has gone on in this sport to some degree on a level that we don't tend to question or think about too closely ... beginning in recent times perhaps with Oksana Baiul at the 1994 Olympics.

Also the fact that MKwan was considered too young and immature to be rewarded for her talent at Worlds in 1995, so she had to become more womanly in 1996 in order for the judges to respect her talent. Of course, in 1996 MK was a year older and she had grown artistically. But her make-over was a conscious attempt by her team to convey a womanly theme with costumes and make-up. It took some convincing for Michelle's Dad to come around to agreeing with the transformation she underwent with the makeup. MK's program of course was not overtly sexual (though there were some complaints in certain quarters re the violent backstory of Salome). In fact, the makeup and hairstyle looked stunning and iconic on Michelle. However, the fact that it was felt necessary for MK to undergo such a swift transformation with dramatic makeup was seemingly a precursor to today's current trend toward rushing talented prepubescent teens into mature womanhood, rather than allowing them to develop at a steadier pace that avoids burnout and exploitation.

 

[aftershocks]

As for Alina, though I think she is lacking a bit in the dancing elegance of a ballerina and could have a little better posture in landing her jumps and in a number of her other movements, I like the performance of Don Quixote overall especially since she certainly has beautiful positions in her spins and the rapid succession of jumps at the end give a sense of the dramatic crescendo in the music especially for a backloaded program, in my opinion. It makes up to a large extent for the slow start. Also, I really liked her cross grab Biellmann spiral in her version of Don Quioxte last year, though unfortunately I think it has been removed from this year's version.

In this instance, I agree with Dave Lease: "Just because Alina is a Russian wearing a red tutu does not make her Kitri."

I can't cope with your avatar That French sulkiness.

OTOH, isn't @rhapsody's avatar saying: Take that! It appears to be a comment on the sport's many ironies, and on the current French team's magical transcendence! (Unless of course the pic of Papadakis is from 2017 Worlds) Sulkiness warranted in both instances in that case.

 

[MsZem]

Ted Flett really missed the boat with that interview.

He really could have asked her some great questions about her coaching, and the ability to produce champions. Instead, he spent most of the time asking her about her beauty regime and the skaters' costumes.

This is what happens when you send amateurs rather truly talented journalists like the great Ivana Komova.