Programs that make you feel uncomfortable

[caseyedwards]

First Nations representatives met with D/S to explain their position and introduce D/S to their culture. That's hardly a hands-off approach.

As I understood the situation at the time, First Nations wanted a dialogue, not to have the dance banned. Representations of Indigenous people as savage and primitive are nothing new, and First Nations/Indigenous people have had to live with them for a very long time.

The platform for this dialogue was one of the world's largest stages, so using it to get skaters/audiences to think about how Indigenous people are represented was much more valuable than just banning the dance.

Also, as I said, they were gracious hosts. SFAIK, hosting is a sacred role and responsibility for Indigenous peoples. And I'm sure the First Nations parties involved consulted with the BC and Canadian governments about how to deal with the situation. And more power to all who chose not to punish the Russian ice dancers for an ill-conceived, offensive program that they did not understand to be such.

As I said above, I think their racism was borne of ignorance, not hate.

What I am not understanding is allowing the dance to be performed if it is aggressively racist and therefore hateful. Why choose to allow something racist and hateful to discuss racism and hatred toward minorities? So then d/s win bronze and the racist dance is part of a bronze medal. Why is that good?

I think that there is pretty widespread agreement that DomShabs' "aboriginal" OD was in poor taste at the very least, and the criticism was very much warranted. My earlier response was only to the argument that they should have been kicked out of the Olympics for it.

My impression at the time was that they were probably unaware that it was problematic until they performed it in competition (they were not on the GP that season); there are differences in sensitivity to cultural representation between countries and societies. By the time that feedback did start coming in, there wasn't much DomShabs could do. It was too late to get a new OD, and Shabalin was probably in no shape to return to their 2008 OD. IIRC, they did tone down the costumes/makeup a bit. Obviously, it wasn't enough to make that program remotely culturally appropriate.

Linichuk really should have done better by them.

I think it’s always been just the opposite. All of the people involved may be Russian but they were all living in the United States for years and years and even in Russia they knew about negative reactions to other programs. They chose something that was a total nondance and make everyone discuss racism rather than their incredible deterioration over shabalins knee. No recognizable dance was an option. It would have failed and no medal was guaranteed. So the whole “well Russians are racist and don’t know any better” was used! They knew they could use that. They were living in America for years!

 

[jenny12]

DomShabs Aboriginal dance and Alexei Yagudin’s One Banana program (which was even worse) were the most egregious examples. I blame ignorance more than malice of course for those programs, but yeah, insensitive to say the least. Yagudin’s “One Banana” was staight up mockery of African tribal culture.

 

[viennese]

Programs that make me uncomfortable in a different way: Finally skaters get to use vocal music, and we all expect there will be much more variety in music choice.

Cut to 2017-2018 season, and we've got 20 programs from "Moulin Rouge" and another 20 from "Swan Lake"/"Black Swan"

"Moulin Rouge" is a great soundtrack - two complete CDs, even. But the tango was already in heavy rotation in the dance event. I hope the South Korean Olympic audience loves it, because they are going to hear a lot of it.

 

[briancoogaert]

Cappellini&Lanotte's FD from this year : https://youtu.be/LC8W7VCnoFI?t=1m2s
Honestly ?

 

[MsZem]

Cappellini&Lanotte's FD from this year : https://youtu.be/LC8W7VCnoFI?t=1m2s
Honestly ?

It's too bland to be offensive. It's not meant to be Holocaust on Ice, right? I mean, if P/B could use this music for their Circus program I don't see why it should be an issue here.

But C/L are capable of charm (as seen in basically all their programs) and they have a sense of fun (as can be seen in the exhibitions), and they can even do drama (the only RfaD worth watching back in 2010), and they choose this for their final season? Meh.

 

[Japanfan]

What I am not understanding is allowing the dance to be performed if it is aggressively racist and therefore hateful. Why choose to allow something racist and hateful to discuss racism and hatred toward minorities? So then d/s win bronze and the racist dance is part of a bronze medal. Why is that good?

I don't recall what changes they made to the actual dance, so can't comment on that.

As I said, dialogue was seen as a meaningful response.

As to banning programs in general, are there even any protocols or procedures in place for that? When skaters don't meet the requirements for a certain program, is it to possible to ban the program? This would include requirements for all SPs, but SFAIK programs that don't meet them would not be banned, but would be marked down accordingly.

I think it’s always been just the opposite. All of the people involved may be Russian but they were all living in the United States for years and years and even in Russia they knew about negative reactions to other programs. They chose something that was a total nondance and make everyone discuss racism rather than their incredible deterioration over shabalins knee. No recognizable dance was an option. It would have failed and no medal was guaranteed. So the whole “well Russians are racist and don’t know any better” was used! They knew they could use that. They were living in America for years!

I don't know what "other programs" you refer to?

And living in the United States for years might not have enhanced their awareness of racism. The world of FS in a tiny, insular bubble, and definitely not a hotbed of intellectual discourse. Also, immigrants to the US or long-term residents often live within the small social bubbles of their communities, speaking their own languages and carrying on their traditions, not relating to people outside the bubbles. The fact the US is seen to be a melting pot doesn't mean that the first generation of immigrants get to the pot - it's usually the second generation that does that, especially if the first generation doesn't know English or learn it well.

 

[caseyedwards]

I don't recall what changes they made to the actual dance, so can't comment on that.

As I said, dialogue was seen as a meaningful response.

As to banning programs in general, are there even any protocols or procedures in place for that? When skaters don't meet the requirements for a certain program, is it to possible to ban the program? This would include requirements for all SPs, but SFAIK programs that don't meet them would not be banned, but would be marked down accordingly.



I don't know what "other programs" you refer to?

And living in the United States for years might not have enhanced their awareness of racism. The world of FS in a tiny, insular bubble, and definitely not a hotbed of intellectual discourse. Also, immigrants to the US or long-term residents often live within the small social bubbles of their communities, speaking their own languages and carrying on their traditions, not relating to people outside the bubbles. The fact the US is seen to be a melting pot doesn't mean that the first generation of immigrants get to the pot - it's usually the second generation that does that, especially if the first generation doesn't know English or learn it well.

The procedure for banning dances is provided in the rules for the original dance requiring the dance to reflect accurately a country or regions people. So it would have only taken on person in the isu go to the ice dance committee and be like “total violation of every rule of folk dance!!!”

Linichuk was coaching Americans Russians and Italians. The whole camp was totally mixed and Russians were not only dealing with other Russians. It was an open rink too. It’s not an immigrant situation it’s really a business situation and a public one.

One other program was mentioned which is the banana one.

 

[Japanfan]

The procedure for banning dances is provided in the rules for the original dance requiring the dance to reflect accurately a country or regions people. So it would have only taken on person in the isu go to the ice dance committee and be like “total violation of every rule of folk dance!!!”

Has any ice dance program actually ever been banned? Or any program for any discipline, for that matter?

 

[Vagabond]

Has any ice dance program actually ever been banned? Or any program for any discipline, for that matter?

Magda Julin

Just before her free skating performance she had to change her intended music. Julin had prepared to free skate to the waltz "The Blue Danubeâ" by Johann Strauss. However, she was not allowed to use this music due to wide spread anti-German resentments.

Strauss was Austrian, but whatever....

 

[misskarne]

A question, if I may, for all those claiming the dialogue with the Canadian First Nations somehow made everything okay.

Why was the dialogue with Canadian First Nations? I mean, I have no doubt they faced - probably still face - atrocities as well. But the particular culture that was being made a mockery of by DomShabs wasn't the Canadian First Nations culture. It was the Australian Indigenous culture. And DomShabs made no approach to them and any approaches made to DomShabs were clearly spurned or ignored. Why is it somehow considered acceptable that they apologised only to the Canadian First Nations?

It certainly didn't help, IMO, with the perception that the power countries in skating could get away with whatever they wanted and the little countries can go jump. Russia will apologise to fellow big skating country Canada, but shoo, pesky little Australia, shoo!

 

[Amantide]

I&K Schindler's List. I know a lot of people loved them with that program, but honestly, that was way too much for me. The machine guns in the end were just..... Didn't like it.

Cappellini&Lanotte's FD from this year : https://youtu.be/LC8W7VCnoFI?t=1m2s
Honestly ?

Why, the SD is better?

 

[MsZem]

A question, if I may, for all those claiming the dialogue with the Canadian First Nations somehow made everything okay.

Why was the dialogue with Canadian First Nations? I mean, I have no doubt they faced - probably still face - atrocities as well. But the particular culture that was being made a mockery of by DomShabs wasn't the Canadian First Nations culture. It was the Australian Indigenous culture. And DomShabs made no approach to them and any approaches made to DomShabs were clearly spurned or ignored. Why is it somehow considered acceptable that they apologised only to the Canadian First Nations?

It certainly didn't help, IMO, with the perception that the power countries in skating could get away with whatever they wanted and the little countries can go jump. Russia will apologise to fellow big skating country Canada, but shoo, pesky little Australia, shoo!

I imagine it was more like, Canada was the host nation, and the First Nations representatives stepped in (or were asked to do so) as sort of indigenous proxy for the aboriginal people of Australia.

It seems like very few people in this thread have tried to defend the program, even given the meeting with the First Nations representatives. But as I wrote earlier, it is possible that by the time DomShabs realized they had a problem, there really weren't any good choices for them to make. Which is not to say that they chose the best of a bad lot.

 

[attyfan]

IMO, the worst thing about D & S's aboriginal program was that it showed that no one learned anything from the problems with Yagudin's "One Banana". That Russian skaters might do a program that demeans certain cultures once might be ignorance, but twice?

 

[AxelAnnie]

I mentioned the ladies' fabric...doen under rule. 2 1/5 inch minimum. Anna Capilinni gets a plus 2 GOE.

 

[Areski]

I&K Schindler's List. I know a lot of people loved them with that program, but honestly, that was way too much for me. The machine guns in the end were just..... Didn't like it.



Why, the SD is better?

You can add I/K ''Ghost'' as well. Those voiceovers were so tacky & wtf, the program though made me giggle inadvertently more than anything else.

 

[caseyedwards]

I imagine it was more like, Canada was the host nation, and the First Nations representatives stepped in (or were asked to do so) as sort of indigenous proxy for the aboriginal people of Australia.

It seems like very few people in this thread have tried to defend the program, even given the meeting with the First Nations representatives. But as I wrote earlier, it is possible that by the time DomShabs realized they had a problem, there really weren't any good choices for them to make. Which is not to say that they chose the best of a bad lot.

Back at the time I always defended the program as a tribute to aboriginal people d/s had watched in YouTube videos. But the fact is when someone is offended and feel you are being hateful and racist toward them as all aboriginal leaders felt d/s were being that’s all that’s matters really! the program needed to be banned as it wasn’t aboriginal violating the rules of the OD and also violating Canadian hate speech laws. But no one filed a complaint with the isu and no Canadian prosecutors opened a case!

 

[Bellanca]

Programs w/ Really. Cheesy. Vocals.

 

[Japanfan]

IMO, the worst thing about D & S's aboriginal program was that it showed that no
one learned anything from the problems with Yagudin's "One Banana". That Russian skaters might do a program that demeans certain cultures once might be ignorance, but twice?

I never saw "One Banana" or heard about, but gather it came before D&S's FD? Was there actually any criticism of the program and dialogue regarding what was problematic about it.

 

[jenniferlyon]

I never saw "One Banana" or heard about, but gather it came before D&S's FD? Was there actually any criticism of the program and dialogue regarding what was problematic about it.

"One Banana" was from 1996-1997, long before D&S's free dance. There was a lot of criticism from skating fans at the time.

Here's a link to the program on YouTube. Its problematic-ness is pretty obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LcLYQKpHy4

 

[Amantide]

You can add I/K ''Ghost'' as well. Those voiceovers were so tacky & wtf, the program though made me giggle inadvertently more than anything else.

Exactly. I was wtf mode on, when I watched that one. But not really uncomfortable, just laughing a bit.

 

[Areski]

Programs w/ Really. Cheesy. Vocals.

Dylan & Luba programs

 

[Seerek]

Well, as it turned out, Laurine read this thread last week (kidding), so now it's Goodbye Daddy, Hello Diamonds (and Ksenia Makarova)!

 

[Japanfan]

"One Banana" was from 1996-1997, long before D&S's free dance. There was a lot of criticism from skating fans at the time.

Here's a link to the program on YouTube. Its problematic-ness is pretty obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LcLYQKpHy4

OMG! Totally unbelievable that anyone in this day and age could be so ignorant.

 

[coppertop1]

D/S 201o OD. That’s just...ugh. Really bad taste. I don’t think they meant to be offensive but . . . yeah. I remember the crowd in Vancouver being very mute, I think they were confused and uncomfortable.

Laetitia Hubert’s drug-addicted hooker program. I really felt strange watching it. Same with Schwartz/Müller’s domestiv violence themed LP.

 

[Areski]

D/S 201o OD. That’s just...ugh. Really bad taste. I don’t think they meant to be offensive but . . . yeah. I remember the crowd in Vancouver being very mute, I think they were confused and uncomfortable.

Laetitia Hubert’s drug-addicted hooker program. I really felt strange watching it. Same with Schwartz/Müller’s domestiv violence themed LP.

Oh, yeah I remember that

 

[coppertop1]

You know you’ve gone wrong if the crowd is like “Um, okay?”. Especially the Canadian crowd. I’m fine with doing ethnic dances but please do it right, like Davis/White’s East Indian OD from the same season.

 

[casken]

When I think "uncomfortable", I think more along the lines of that Scott Hamilton pro routine that was supposed to be a pardoy of ballet that featured him in light blue tights with a giant, oversized cod piece.

Talk about things you can't unsee.

 

[MsZem]

OMG! Totally unbelievable that anyone in this day and age could be so ignorant.

One Banana was not in this day and age; it was 20+ years ago. A lot of things that were considered acceptable then are not considered so now.

On top of that, the program was skated by a Russian teenager who had not grown up in today's globalized world. I really don't find it outside the realm of reason that he would have had no idea that it was problematic. One might argue that Mishin should have known better, but even in his case, I doubt he could fully grasp why this would offend western audiences.

DomShabs and especially Linichuk, being older and based in the US, really should have known better with that "aboriginal" disaster.

 

[Sylvia]

Bumping this thread up because it seems to be an earlier version of caseyedwards' latest thread...

 

[Mad for Skating]

Okay, here goes.
Virtue/Moir's Carmen and Moulin Rouge. Don't get me wrong, they are brilliant actors and the programs tell the story as it should be, but I keep feeling like I'm walking in on some sinful love affair and it's a little much. Especially the lift with her crotch in his face. Same for Hubbell/Donohue's FD this year; I want to close my eyes.

James/Cipres "Earned It" SP...lots of people skated to the 50 Shades soundtrack but I feel like this was too literal. It's one thing to do a hot program, it's another thing to take masochism onto the ice, and it was a very fine line IMO.

Tarasova/Morozov's Candyman program was no masterpiece, but it just makes me laugh.

Any video of Eric Radford makes me uncomfortable, but only because he's divinely hot.