New Ladies Quads and Orser-exit, news during May-day holidays.

[_Lola_]

As for Canadians, Julianne Seguin is very interesting and sad case in relation to body weight. Why did they split with Charlie Bilodeau? Why did she say in one of her last interviews that she wanted to keep being healthy in terms of weight... At the same time, she had several concussions. She had more than one concussion during the year before they split... Was it perhaps because her healthy weight was dangerous for pair skating at the elite level? How then 'liberal' methods - when weight is 'your own business' - can help someone to stay healthy if someone's weight is in conflict with the elite sport and this leads to injuries?

 

[AxelAnnie]

As for Canadians, Julianne Seguin is very interesting and sad case in relation to body weight. Why did they split with Charlie Bilodeau? Why did she say in one of her last interviews that she wanted to keep being healthy in terms of weight... At the same time, she had several concussions. She had more than one concussion during the year before they split... Was it perhaps because her healthy weight was dangerous for pair skating at the elite level? How then 'liberal' methods - when weight is 'your own business' - can help someone to stay healthy if someone's weight is in conflict with the elite sport and this leads to injuries?

I don't know what your "thing" is here, but I don't know of any sport where weight is not an issue directly related to results. One needs to be at peak performance level...whatever that is for that sport and that person. Ultimately, performance shape is in the hands of the athlete. IMO, neither "method" is magic or "right". Prepubescent ladies can rotate faster than ladies with breasts and hips (Physics). Jumps are easy to see, easy to count the revolutions, and therefore fun and defining for fans. If you can do more, better, higher, you get rewarded.

Puberty for girls must be like learning to do a jump correctly after years of "cheating" . Think Rochette and her Lutz. Took a couple of seasons, and really paid off. With a new body, you have to re-train your bod.

 

[Finsta]

Do you mean yourself, first and foremost? I noticed that you have lived in this thread. Each time you don't like someone's argument you post a personal attack message, [not very well] hidden behind the words 'some posters are saying or doing...', like this one above.

Think what you want. I hardly think my posts attack skaters. Nor do I live in a thread. Thanks for paying so close attention to me though. It’s great that I’m such importance to you. I’ll always disagree with posters that are posting hurtful rumors about skaters. If you’re fine with them that’s your choice. I see no reason defend posters that post rumors and gossip and spread hatred. To each their own. ?

 

[Moustaffask8r]

Haguenauer does their choreography — honestly, the stuff he comes up with for them is quite often better than what Gadbois’ own junior teams get.

I agree!

 

[Japanfan]

Seems many posting to defend Russia use weak arguments and want to just keep the nonsense going. The coaches in America aren’t now parents to the skaters. What I notice is the parent has responsibilities and acts as control. Seems in Russia coach has that very role. Look how eteri was with Medvedeva. And Alina. Alina’s own grandmother injured her and eteri had to control the situation. Seems maybe cultural differences. So why keeping this going is not making sense

What do you mean by Alina's own grandmother injured her?

I don't think that there is much difference between 'liberal' and 'illiberal' methods - the outcome is the same: young women must keep their weight under control if they want to achieve high results. The difference is probably that 'illiberal' methods assume that a coach can take part and responsibility in weight control, whereas 'liberal' methods assume self-control and own responsibility. That is why Daleman's troubles are considered as 'her own', according to some people posting in this thread, whereas Lipnitskaya's troubles are seen as guilt of her coach. Although in fact both have struggled from the same thing - the internalized pressure that is coming from the sport of figure skating at the elite level.

The main reason is that, when you read Eteri's own words, she appears to be all in favor of damaging weight-loss methods. Other coaches, at the very least, pay lip service to the importance of skaters putting their health first and getting enough to eat (and some coaches actually follow through and hire nutritionists, encourage anorexic skaters to seek help, etc.). Eteri, to the best of our knowledge, does not. That's really all there is to it.

From everything I've read, it appears that Eteri encouraged Lipnitsaka's ED. IIRC she was proud of the self-control Lip exhibited in staying on a powder diet.

There probably are North American coaches who support disordered eating/EDs, but none have made public statements or demonstrated practices of providing such support, SFAIK.

And it's true that 'illiberal methods' allow the coach more control over the skater. But that doesn't mean coaches don't have a huge influence over skaters' dietary practices and how they perceive their bodies.

 

[_Lola_]

And it's true that 'illiberal methods' allow the coach more control over the skater. But that doesn't mean coaches don't have a huge influence over skaters' dietary practices and how they perceive their bodies.

I agree. To turn a blind eye - this is what happened in the case of Gold and perhaps is happening in the case of Daleman - is also a form of coach's participation. In that sense, 'liberal' and 'illiberal' methods do not differ much: coaches are still a part.

I am not going to argue regarding Lipnitskaya. She developed her eating disorder 1,5 years after she had left Eteri. As for protein powder cocktails, I wonder how widespread this practice in sport is? Does Gabby Daleman use them now? Did Kaethlyn Osmond use them to stay in shape? I'm really curious.

 

[_Lola_]

Think what you want. I hardly think my posts attack skaters. Nor do I live in a thread. Thanks for paying so close attention to me though. It’s great that I’m such importance to you. I’ll always disagree with posters that are posting hurtful rumors about skaters. If you’re fine with them that’s your choice. I see no reason defend posters that post rumors and gossip and spread hatred. To each their own. ?

You do and you do. And why wouldn't you follow your own recommendations?

 

[Finsta]

What do you mean by Alina's own grandmother injured her?





From everything I've read, it appears that Eteri encouraged Lipnitsaka's ED. IIRC she was proud of the self-control Lip exhibited in staying on a powder diet.

There probably are North American coaches who support disordered eating/EDs, but none have made public statements or demonstrated practices of providing such support, SFAIK.

And it's true that 'illiberal methods' allow the coach more control over the skater. But that doesn't mean coaches don't have a huge influence over skaters' dietary practices and how they perceive their bodies.

According to one of her insiders on this board her grandmother Injured her ankle. English is not my first language so maybe injure not correct word

That said, nobody should have to answer to rabid fans. English first language or not. I believe even coaches said her grandmother injured her. You’re trying to start a fight then message her coach’s and fight with them.

 

[Tinami Amori]

What do you mean by Alina's own grandmother injured her?

Her grand-mother was putting a compress on her ankle, misread the label on the liquid bottle, made the substance too strong, held it on the ankle too long, and Alina got bad burn-blisters which turned into an injury. Alina had to go to the doctor and came a day late to the last Russian Nationals.

https://newkuban.ru/upload/medialibrary/9b7/6.jpg

From everything I've read, it appears that Eteri encouraged Lipnitsaka's ED. IIRC she was proud of the self-control Lip exhibited in staying on a powder diet.

Tutberidze was aware of Lip's eating issues (which she had since childhood). In order to help her, she arranged with the Federation to hire Lip's mother as an Assistant Coach, with full salary and travel benefits, so that Lip's mother can take care of her health and diet. Lip's mother found a diet-consultant who advised this powder. Mother accepted it. Tutberidze was faced with this fact, that Yulia will be taking this powder with yogurt. She realized that it is tough on Julia, said so herself. Yet given it was Yulia's Mother who chose it, just accepted it.

There probably are North American coaches who support disordered eating/EDs, but none have made public statements or demonstrated practices of providing such support, SFAIK.

No coach ANYWHERE supports or enourages disorder eating. Often coaches and parents are not aware until it obvious. When a coach suggests that a skater must be in a certain shape in order to handle high level technical content, it is assumed that it will be done in an appropriate manner. It is up to the skater and parents to decide "can it be done without harm".

If it requires "harm", then the skater/parent should decide is it worth it, or should one either reduce expectations and goals, or leave the sport.

And it's true that 'illiberal methods' allow the coach more control over the skater. But that doesn't mean coaches don't have a huge influence over skaters' dietary practices and how they perceive their bodies.

Skaters and/or their parents have eyes and brains. Like my grand-father said "If 10 people jump off the 10-story building, does not mean you have to do it, just because they do or say it is ok".

Obviously, nobody now is pushing Daleman towards anything "unhealthy" and yet she is fixated on "mutilated images of her body" in the IG. And yet...... nobody helped her with it at the rink. Maybe she needs someone to take her under her wing, tell her she is special, invest time in her and HER DIET, and yes, be a little strict.

Maybe Orser much earlier should have arranged, like Tuberidze, for SkateCanada to hire Daleman's mother as an "assistant coach" and help her daughter with diet and self-image...

 

[Japanfan]

Her grand-mother was putting a compress on her ankle, misread the label on the liquid bottle, made the substance too strong, held it on the ankle too long, and Alina got bad burn-blisters which turned into an injury. Alina had to go to the doctor and came a day late to the last Russian Nationals.

Thanks. The way the OP presented the situation gave me the impression the injury was intentional.

No coach ANYWHERE supports or enourages disorder eating. Often coaches and parents are not aware until it obvious. When a coach suggests that a skater must be in a certain shape in order to handle high level technical content, it is assumed that it will be done in an appropriate manner. It is up to the skater and parents to decide "can it be done without harm".

Coaches and others can indirectly support or encourage EDs by making such a suggestion. And by complimenting athletes when they lose weight or maintain a certain weight.

And I'm sure there are a few who turn a blind eye when they suspect an athlete has an ED/disordered eating. In some cases, it may be believed that the ED/disordered eating is necessary for the athlete to do her/his best.

I remember reading about how American parents continued to the flock to the Karolyis even after their mistreatment of gymnasts became known. The reason being that the Karolyis produced champions.

Skaters and/or their parents have eyes and brains. Like my grand-father said "If 10 people jump off the 10-story building, does not mean you have to do it, just because they do or say it is ok".

A lot of people unfortunately have a flock mentality.

Obviously, nobody now is pushing Daleman towards anything "unhealthy" and yet she is fixated on "mutilated images of her body" in the IG. And yet...... nobody helped her with it at the rink. Maybe she needs someone to take her under her wing, tell her she is special, invest time in her and HER DIET, and yes, be a little strict.

But Daleman doesn't look IRL like she looks in the pictures. She acknowledged that she had an ED and mental health issues, and took time off to deal with them. We've not heard anything about her diet at present.

I don't understand those awful images of her. I think she must understand that being so thin is extremely unhealthy.

Maybe Orser much earlier should have arranged, like Tuberidze, for SkateCanada to hire Daleman's mother as an "assistant coach" and help her daughter with diet and self-image...

Daleman indicated that she had gotten help. And got it in time to avoid hospitalization.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Thanks. The way the OP presented the situation gave me the impression the injury was intentional.

I don't know who/what "OP" is. I doubt any skater and/or parent would make the injury "intentional"

Coaches and others can indirectly support or encourage EDs by making such a suggestion. And by complimenting athletes when they lose weight or maintain a certain weight.

There is a saying "don't change others, change your self or your approach". Instead of "changing coaches" (if what they are doing is not illegal) the best solution for parents to teach their kids to "give a good filter to all they hear and see" and to teach them how to react and process.

Some people will hear from their coach "you're fat" and say "go F yourself". Some will say "i'll think about it". Some people will get hysterical and sulk, some will go and hang themselves. Saying "you're fat" is not against the law. Telling you're coach "go F yourself" or just "good-bye, i am going elsewhere" is also not against the law.

 

[Japanfan]

I doubt any skater and/or parent would make the injury "intentional"

Ever heard of Munchausen By Proxy Syndrome? https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/health-topics/hw180537

It's rare, but does happen. I've never heard of it occurring with the context of sport, but it may well have done.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It's rare...

It's rare...

 

[puglover]

It seems to me that there is a lot of assuming going on. How do any of us know how Gabby's coaching staff have dealt with her emotional problems? Kaetlyn Osmond details her own struggles with body image and points a finger at no one - just that it is easy to feel big when you are surrounded by very tiny girls. Some girls are definitely more susceptible to developing an eating disorder than others no matter who their coach is. And some coaches probably handle it better than others.

 

[annie_mg]

No coach ANYWHERE supports or enourages disorder eating.

I wish that was true. I was watching a documentary the other day on Russian rythmic gymnastics and Irina Viner was proudly saying that Kabaeva had the unique ability to go on "water diets" and lose weight when it counted the most. And the girls were saying that they couldn't drink water during training because even 100g count and their coach would see them.

If that's not encouraging it, I don't know what is.

 

[Japanfan]

No coach ANYWHERE supports or enourages disorder eating.

In the book 'Little Girls in Pretty Boxes', Joan Ryan reported that Bella Karolyi taught his athletes that eating was a weakness. She said that he had once ridiculed his gymnasts when he caught them eating peaches and insulted them. And that when his team went to one Olympics, that they were so hungry they had to have food smuggled in.

Ryan wrote the book about both gymnastics and FS, but said that eating disorders/disordered eating was a more serious issue in gymnastics than in FS.

 

[LoopCombo]

Tutberidze was aware of Lip's eating issues (which she had since childhood). In order to help her, she arranged with the Federation to hire Lip's mother as an Assistant Coach, with full salary and travel benefits, so that Lip's mother can take care of her health and diet. Lip's mother found a diet-consultant who advised this powder. Mother accepted it. Tutberidze was faced with this fact, that Yulia will be taking this powder with yogurt. She realized that it is tough on Julia, said so herself. Yet given it was Yulia's Mother who chose it, just accepted it.

Thank you for this clarification, Tinami. I have heard over and over again from other skating fans that Tutberidze forced Lipnitskaya onto a protein powder diet. The additional context you’ve provided — Julia’s mother’s role, the consultant’s role, and Julia having struggled with disordered eating since childhood — is new to me and possibly other skating fans who don’t speak Russian. I feel like it is almost a fetish with some fans to demonize Tutberidze as the second coming of Bela Karolyi — or worse.

 

[LoopCombo]

Kaetlyn Osmond details her own struggles with body image and points a finger at no one - just that it is easy to feel big when you are surrounded by very tiny girls.

I did not know that Kaetlyn had spoken about this, but I can see how it would be difficult not to struggle with body image in elite figure skating. My husband and I attended a Grand Prix this past year — our first live competition — and the figure skaters were mostly shorter and smaller than the fans. Much littler than they look on TV.

 

[puglover]

I did not know that Kaetlyn had spoken about this, but I can see how it would be difficult not to struggle with body image in elite figure skating. My husband and I attended a Grand Prix this past year — our first live competition — and the figure skaters were mostly shorter and smaller than the fans. Much littler than they look on TV.

Just to be clear, Kaetlyn does say that she has not had an eating disorder but watched her older sister who did pairs feel the pressure and Kaetlyn herself felt bigger at times. I am 5'7 and as a teenager I felt like a giraffe as almost all of my friends were much shorter. It is a very complex situation, especially in elite sport where size can affect results.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Thank you for this clarification, Tinami. I have heard over and over again from other skating fans that Tutberidze forced Lipnitskaya onto a protein powder diet. The additional context you’ve provided — Julia’s mother’s role, the consultant’s role, and Julia having struggled with disordered eating since childhood — is new to me and possibly other skating fans who don’t speak Russian. I feel like it is almost a fetish with some fans to demonize Tutberidze as the second coming of Bela Karolyi — or worse.

There were several interviews/articles talking about her mother's role in details, back starting 2015-2017. They are old, not quick to find. here is one.

Какая диета чуть не убила Липницкую

Какая диета чуть не убила Липницкую. Фигуристку спасли немецкие врачи

www.eg.ru

"How Julia's diet almost did her in".

Подлила маслица в огонь и Юлина мамаша, выступившая против Тутберидзе. Еще ранее по доброте душевной Этери устроила ее в свой тренерский штаб. Пробила ставку в федерации. Даниэла Леонидовна за госсчет каталась с дочуркой, ездила на все сборы и соревнования, следила за ее питанием. И чтобы Юля не набирала лишний вес, посадила ее на жесткую диету. Что вскоре отразилось на ее здоровье.

"Julia's mother added "fuel to the fire" buy acting out against Tutberidze. Much earlier, out of the goodness of her heart, Eteri arranged (julia's mother) to get a position as a member of her team. Arranged for salary. Daniella Leonidovna (mother) was travelling on state budget with her daughter to all the camps and competitions, was taking care of her diet. And in order for Julia to watch her weight, she put her on a strict diet. Which later affected her health.

Julia's puberty, weight gain, diet and health issues started before she came to Tutberidze, and this is what Julia's pre-Tutberidze's coach Elena Levkovetz said about it.

Юлия Липницкая: 15-тилетний мастер спорта

Российская фигуристка Юлия Липницкая в возрасте 15 лет 249 дней стала самой юной чемпионкой в истории зимних Олимпийских игр. Она победила и в короткой, и в произвольной программах, внеся в копилку сборной 20 очков. Она чисто откатала программу, справившись со сложными многооборотными прыжками и…

masterok.livejournal.com

Как призналась в интервью «Комсомольской правде» ее бывший тренер Елена Левковец, из-за полового созревания Юле было тяжело справиться со своим ростом и весом: «Юля даже собиралась заканчивать спортивную карьеру, потому что не понимала, что происходит, – куда девать руки, куда девать ноги. На тренировках у нее не все получалось. Но нынешний тренер Липницкой и ее мама очень долго работали с ней. И им удалось справиться!».

As was said by her (Julia's) former coach, Elena Levkovetz, in her interview to "KP": because of puberty it was hard for Julia to handle her weight and growth. Julia even wanted to quit her sports career, because she could not deal (understand) what's happening, what to do with arms, with legs. During practices things were not going well (not everything was working out). But now her current coach together with her mother were working hard (with Julia) and managed to handle it (got it under control).

In the book 'Little Girls in Pretty Boxes', Joan Ryan reported that Bella Karolyi taught his athletes that eating was a weakness.

That happened in USA (not North Korea)..... there is a door, and one walks away to another coach.
When my coach back in USSR, when i was 12, told me "you, Jews, are not genetically designed to be athletic" ("you, Jews are not a muscular breed" to be exact), I did not hang myself, or started taking steroid to build muscles...

People should use their heads... It's like with doctors, if one is not satisfied with what the doctor said, one gets 2nd opinion, or even 3rd one....

North America is a "free country" where you're given lots of freedoms in a form of a long rope.... you can hang yourself on it, or climb to the top...

 

[Lemonade20]

I just want to say Gabby Daleman's got the best eye makeup game in all of figure skating - ever. And I hope she is taking care of herself.

Gabrielle Daleman on Twitter

“Have a beautiful and wonderful weekend everyone ?”

twitter.com

You can tell by looking through her social media that she’s using Photoshop badly. Why?!?

 

[misskarne]

Holy zombie thread, Batman...

 

[AxelAnnie]

Refresh my cocktail...Daleman has left?

I didn't even know she was there. Read in another thread that Daleman is a contestant in a beauty pagent which would take a chunk of time.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Not "entitled", but any common sense suggests that if there is only one top senior lady skater remains in a particular country, she should be given a priority by a Canadian top coach at her rink, who is teaching at the top Canadian skating club (and not a free-lancer like some coaches are). Instead that top coach trains the competition and skaters in other countries.

That interview with Daleman's mother is heart breaking...
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/...er-daughter-s-mental-health-battles-1.4977673


Why did she start to crash, but resumed training? Why was she exhausted and broke down? North American coaches and training methods are supposedly so gentle and carrying for the pupils and yet this happens to Daleman at the TCC? it must be the club and the atmosphere....

Why did Daleman tried to hide her injury? She mentioned several times that "she was hurt, but did not tell anyone".. There is no evil Eteri, no jumping beans pushing her.... and yet in a perfect North American club she needs to hide the fact that she is injured, and! because of some small B-level event?



Something certainly unhealthy is going on at the Cricket Club... Especially since Daleman looks much more happy, hopeful and confident now that she is at a new place..
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByGXmeZBV0V/

I claim what a crock. Gabby has had a lot to deal with both mentally and physically. Eating disorder and body dysmorphia are terribly hard to conquer.
I think it is absurd to think Brian should prioritize his coaching by country.

 

[kwanatic]

Well, in reading through the OP for the thread I'll say congrats to Kanysheva on landing a quad. I like her style of skating--very elegant, lovely posture, nice control for someone so young. If she moves to Eteri I could see her going toe-to-toe with Alena and Anna...it'd still be the "Triple A" group.

Best of luck to Lee Barkell and the students who went with him. I'm sure they'll do well at their new (old) rink. I don't see any drama with Gabby leaving TCC especially when it comes to Evgenia. Gabby may have been a well-known name in the camp but she hasn't been competitive for the past 2.5 seasons. She finished 8th at Canadian nationals this year...8th...in Canada.?

In addition to whatever personal issues Gabby is having, I feel like not having Kaetlyn there to push her has stamped out some of her motivation. It's always better to have competition--someone to motivate and challenge you. Gabby and Katelyn battled it out as #1 in Canada for years. It forced both of them to up their game and they were better for it.

Since Kaetlyn left it seems like Gabby lost her motivation. If she's ready to quit she has a lot to look back on and be proud. However, it's not too late for her if she wants to keep competing. At her best, Gabby is quite a bit better than a lot of her Canadian teammates. She still has speed, power and charisma. If she can get her jumps back to being mostly consistent she'd be in good shape. I doubt if she'd be in the running for medals but she could still represent Canada on the GP, at worlds and even attend another Olympics. I kinda expected her to go to a different coach but maybe a change in environment is what she needs. First, she needs to get better and then she can make a decision on what she wants to do with skating...and I really think it should be in that order. It was painful watching her at nationals this year...I can't imagine performing the way she did helped much in terms of her healing. She looked utterly devastated. ?

 

[muffinplus]

Well, in reading through the OP for the thread I'll say congrats to Kanysheva on landing a quad. I like her style of skating--very elegant, lovely posture, nice control for someone so young. If she moves to Eteri I could see her going toe-to-toe with Alena and Anna...it'd still be the "Triple A" group.

Kanysheva has a career threating injury and retired from singles. She moved to ice dance.

 

[kwanatic]

Kanysheva has a career threating injury and retired from singles. She moved to ice dance.

Aaah, I see. I responded to the thread and saw May 20th but didn't realize it said 2019. Well that's sad. I didn't know that about Kanysheva. I really did enjoy her skating.

 

[kwanfan1818]

When USFS or Skate Canada or the French Fed, etc., etc. hires and pays coaches to work only with skaters from the US or Canada or France or etc. and also prohibits them from working with skaters from other countries -- see Morozov, N. and Zhulin, A. -- then those coaches will work with only skaters from that country.

Until then, coaches from the the US and Canada and France will work with whomever they mutually choose, including skaters who outperform and out-medal skaters from their own countries -- see Hanyu, Y., Kim, Y., Fernandez, J., Buttle, J., Papadakis/Cizeron, James/Cipres, Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donohue, Siudeks, etc., etc., etc.

Zoueva doesn't count, because she seems to have a passport to everywhere.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Zoueva doesn't count, because she seems to have a passport to everywhere.

most russian coaches (who worked/work abroad) have "passports to everywhere".