Nationalistic bias in figure skating judging, 2018-present

[Rock2]

There was a big uproar about that Cup of China event. But of course you leave that out.

Not in any thread here about Yuzu or the GP at the time. Maybe someplace else. At the time, I posted on several occasions that based on my review of the threads, there seemed to be no comments wondering why Yuzu placed so high with the terrible skate. No one replied to correct me or point out where such an uproar was made. So based on my observations on the thread conversations, my posts, and the lack of response to set the record straight, I drew that conclusion.

If this uproar happened behind a pay wall, I would not have seen it.

Not at all purposely ommitting this information to mislead anyone. Sorry you chose to assert this was what I was doing.

 

[Willin]

Whether this shows that judges as biased and politicking for their own skaters (which I'm inclined to believe given the past) or that judges have preferences based on the countries they were trained in is up for debate. However the data doesn't lie: there is a Nationalistic bias in skating for whatever reason.

I think what we should take away from this is that judges representing countries needs to be done away with, and instead all international judges should be trained by and represent the ISU - NOT a country. The training by should in theory standardize judges more to decrease preferences based on country of origin and representing the ISU should decrease politicking.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Not in any thread here about Yuzu or the GP at the time. Maybe someplace else. At the time, I posted on several occasions that based on my review of the threads, there seemed to be no comments wondering why Yuzu placed so high with the terrible skate. No one replied to correct me or point out where such an uproar was made. So based on my observations on the thread conversations, my posts, and the lack of response to set the record straight, I drew that conclusion.

If this uproar happened behind a pay wall, I would not have seen it.

Not at all purposely ommitting this information to mislead anyone. Sorry you chose to assert this was what I was doing.

There definitely was. But it’s okay. A lot of times people are oblivious to things for whatever reason so don’t feel bad about it.

 

[mjb52]

The problem with the idea of having judges represent the ISU and not countries is that you will probably end up with huge over-representation of judges from the major federations like the US, Russia, Canada, and France. Without having judges explicitly represent countries there is no way to assure balance and it is unrealistic to expect that the ISU will magically be able to come up with any kind of training that is going to somehow reduce the human tendency to subconscious bias toward what is familiar to them and what they are invested in. At least with the current system, you take that into account and try to create a system that balances opposing forces.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Whether this shows that judges as biased and politicking for their own skaters (which I'm inclined to believe given the past) or that judges have preferences based on the countries they were trained in is up for debate. However the data doesn't lie: there is a Nationalistic bias in skating for whatever reason.

I think what we should take away from this is that judges representing countries needs to be done away with, and instead all international judges should be trained by and represent the ISU - NOT a country. The training by should in theory standardize judges more to decrease preferences based on country of origin and representing the ISU should decrease politicking.

That was done. All judges were meant to represent the ISU and not have their country identified to take that pressure off so they could judge more objectively.

Code of ethics is also discussed at ISU seminars.

The only way you are going to get rid of it is to have judges with no skaters competing in events being used.

 

[overedge]

Whether this shows that judges as biased and politicking for their own skaters (which I'm inclined to believe given the past) or that judges have preferences based on the countries they were trained in is up for debate. However the data doesn't lie: there is a Nationalistic bias in skating for whatever reason.

I think what we should take away from this is that judges representing countries needs to be done away with, and instead all international judges should be trained by and represent the ISU - NOT a country. The training by should in theory standardize judges more to decrease preferences based on country of origin and representing the ISU should decrease politicking.

Data on their own don't lie, but different kinds of analyses can make data more likely to reflect different things. I don't think this analysis proves anything definitively.

However, re judges being trained by the ISU, judges have to pass ISU tests before they are allowed to judge international-level events. So the ISU has some "quality control" over who sits on an international judging panel. But judges don't get to take the ISU tests without being a national-level judge in their own country. The ISU doesn't really have a role in that level of training, and it probably shouldn't (if for no other reason it probably doesn't have the resources to be involved in every country where there's judges).

IIRC to be eligible the ISU tests for international judging, a judge has to be nominated by their federation. That could certainly be a source of implicit bias, as in a judge who isn't seen as likely to support their own country's skaters might not get that nomination. But on the other hand, the ISU on its own picking judges that it wants to be international judges probably isn't a much better way to eliminate bias either.

 

[gkelly]

I guess the way around that would be to have judges submit an application to the ISU on their own to take an exam to attend seminars, trial judge at international competitions, etc. They could list their domestic judging experience and use recommendations from existing international officials from their federation to support their application. But nomination by a federation would not be a prerequisite to being accepted into the training. The ISU would decide who gets to participate, not the federations.

Which might mean that the ISU would be flooded with applications from large federations with many officials who think they're ready for international appointments. They'd have to have some way to decide who to accept and who to reject, among applicants they've never met. They wouldn't accept 100 applicants from the US or Russia just because they received that many applications.

 

[Rhino]

The only way you are going to get rid of it is to have judges with no skaters competing in events being used.

Alternatively discard the scores from the judge whose skater is skating and take the middle 6 out of 8 scores (in a 9 judge panel), or have a substitute judge system whose scores only come into play when a skater whose judge is on the panel is skating.

This would also have the effect of minimising any marking down that is going on as the judge would be sat there doing nothing while their skater is skating, and be reminded this is only happening because the ISU is concerned about national bias.

 

[overedge]

It would also help if the ISU took meaningful action, like lifetime bans from judging, against judges who are found to have displayed bias. A judge that is determined to cheat is going to find a way to do it regardless of what judging system is used or how judges are assigned to competitions.

 

[euterpe]

Alternatively discard the scores from the judge whose skater is skating and take the middle 6 out of 8 scores (in a 9 judge panel), or have a substitute judge system whose scores only come into play when a skater whose judge is on the panel is skating.

This would also have the effect of minimising any marking down that is going on as the judge would be sat there doing nothing while their skater is skating, and be reminded this is only happening because the ISU is concerned about national bias.

But even then, there's nothing to keep that judge from underscoring the home skater's close competitors.

 

[sk9tingfan]

What i find interesting is that the author of the article talks about "national bias", and then highlights and lists Russia, France, Germany, Italy first, attracting attention to these countries which indirectly suggest "worst offenders".

..... and then in his/her very own work the statistics/counting shows this...

Worst offenders (by number of cases).
Canada (23)
USA (21)
--
--
--
--
Japan (16)
Russia (14)
Germany (13)
Italy (11)
France (8)

i am not sure this "author" is qualified to talk about "national bias"...

Sorry for not posting the analysis previously!

SkatingScores on Twitter

“National Bias-O-Meter from SkateAmerica I suspect the favorable judging from 🇨🇳 in Mens FS is among the highest ever…approaching what happened in the Pyeongchang Mens FS where I believe disciplinary measures were taken. Primarily from BJ's PCS marks here https://t.co/s4P6jvw2bI”

twitter.com

SkatingScores on Twitter

“National Bias-O-Meter from SkateAmerica I suspect the favorable judging from 🇨🇳 in Mens FS is among the highest ever…approaching what happened in the Pyeongchang Mens FS where I believe disciplinary measures were taken. Primarily from BJ's PCS marks here https://t.co/s4P6jvw2bI”

twitter.com

This is an analysis provided by SkatingScores.com. I believe that there are other graphics which if meaningful, I'll forward.

 

[aftershocks]

Nah most Australian's couldn't give a sh*t about this obsessive nutjob type stuff.

I was kidding (and maybe you know that, but this response makes it very unclear to me).

My take is that Aussie Willy is referencing 'following Trusova's dog on Instagram' as the "obsessive nutjob type stuff."

Read Push Dick's Button. Read it and weep, read it and pull your hair out, read it and laugh. BTW, there's no longer any 'figure' in figure skating. However, it certainly figures that the sport has been full of political bs, philandering, corruption, cheating, abuse, conflicts of interest, scandalous judging, eating disorders, whatnot and 'nutjob type stuff' for a long time now, in addition to guts, glory, and sequins galore.

 

[Rhino]

But even then, there's nothing to keep that judge from underscoring the home skater's close competitors.

It would take a certain amount of nerve though, especially as they would know their scores are under much greater scrutiny. Not saying it wouldn't happen, but at least it should be minimised, and of course anything that helps must be good.

 

[meer]

That Chinese judge at Skate America was bold. Can you imagine if that were a Russian or American judge? Gotta go check Fair Skating Union to see how concerned they are about this pressing issue or if they are still crying about Nathan's GOE and PCS.

 

[muffinplus]

That Chinese judge at Skate America was bold. Can you imagine if that were a Russian or American judge? Gotta go check Fair Skating Union to see how concerned they are about this pressing issue or if they are still crying about Nathan's GOE and PCS.

That twitter account is run by a loon, right?