Think Olympic Judges are Biased? They Might Be.

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Biased towards getting their cheques from Bank of Moscow, maybe.

 

[VGThuy]

Oh well. Did anybody at least think the graph was interesting? I'd like to see a measurement of voting blocs per discipline and if there's any correlation.

What about the quiz in the middle to see how much of a chance you'd have being a judge? It's not the most subtle or accurate quiz but it gets its message across, one that many of us here have discussed relentlessly on this forum.

 

[Willin]

@Aussie Willy I think the proposal would be to have the ISU pay ISU certified judges and to have the judges as full time employees (ie. the same pool of ISU-employed judges judge all major international competitions), so smaller federations wouldn't have to worry about paying their salary.

Because of country affiliations, I think if they were going to do this they should hire judges for this pool that:

1. Are not high up in any National Federation (ie. no former/current executives, no family members of executives, no current coaching of competing students from any country); Better yet, have them not be allowed to be a member of any national federation, only a member of the ISU staff. Or, very maybe best yet, hire people who know literally no none of the skaters/coaches/execs of skating and train them to judge. One wonders how much of the corruption is favoritism for their country and how much is being friends with the skater/coach.
2. Are accurate and fair - probably an analysis that requires a lot of review and stats and such, but basically their scoring is consistent between skaters and competitions regardless of country.
3. Represent smaller federations with no skaters contending for a medal who would have no stake in manipulating results or forming deals with other countries
4. Are not former members of federations who switch federations. Or at least don't place them on the same panel as someone from their former federation (ie. part of the controversy on panels is that a lot of judges in former soviet republics were former members of the USSR federation, and may favor Russian skaters because of that - in Sochi I think it was the Ukrainian judge?)
5. Have no statistical favoritism towards their country or a specific voting block.

But, most importantly:
6. If they are banned from judging, fire them immediately and do not allow them to be reinstated at any international event no matter how badly their federation wants them to judge. There's plenty of qualified judges out there - there's no reason to bring back someone known for corruption.

 

[caseyedwards]

Banning a judge from banning its own countries athletes? This has never gone anywhere because everything in skating is so incestuous anyway! Fact! At highest levels of skating everyone from Russia really knows everyone Finland or China judges as good as Russia judges OK?!?

 

[VGThuy]

I think number 1 would be rather difficult because I imagine the trek of becoming a skating judge and making it to international competition is like being a municipal/state court judge working their way up in states where judges are appointed...they have to have important people know who they are and vouch for them, thus one has to network and make themselves known. Unless you're imagining a set up where testing and certification is totally open to the public (with little to no connections to the skating world) and strict ethical rules are in place and monitored by the ISU and every judge has to meet vigorous background checks for character and fitness. Not sure how practical that is.

 

[Willin]

@VIETgrlTerifa That is how it works - top judges get there by knowing the right people and judging at competitions for a while. Personally I'd prefer if it would be a set up open to the public with strict ethical rules in place, but as you said, it's probably not practical (although for the right price I'm sure a lot of people would apply - free trips around the world and some good income if you follow the rules).

 

[VGThuy]

I also doubt it's even possible to be a competent judge with an actual background in skating without knowing people in the skating world (local skating clubs in your area, knowing coaches, skaters, officials in federation, choreographers, tech specialists, judges, etc.). It's a very small world and not many people share an interest in skating so people would want to know each other who share that passion.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

1. Are not former members of federations who switch federations. Or at least don't place them on the same panel as someone from their former federation (ie. part of the controversy on panels is that a lot of judges in former soviet republics were former members of the USSR federation, and may favor Russian skaters because of that - in Sochi I think it was the Ukrainian judge?)

Why not the rule be designed in such a way whereby we prevent two countries having the same head of state also not be on panel, so Australia, Canada and Britain ? ... I would also prefer only one judge from Schengen countries. For me that makes more sense than stopping countries that gained independence from another be not on the panel.

 

[Willin]

@Domshabfan The point isn't the actual politics (well, and that's not a fair example as The Queen is a symbolic head - she has little to no actual political power), it's the skating politics. I used that as an example because I remember that being a situation people were talking quite a bit about. If it was a US judge who switched to Canada I'd think it would be just as inappropriate.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

@Domshabfan The point isn't the actual politics (well, and that's not a fair example as The Queen is a symbolic head - she has little to no actual political power), it's the skating politics. I used that as an example because I remember that being a situation people were talking quite a bit about. If it was a US judge who switched to Canada I'd think it would be just as inappropriate.

What you are proposing is not switching countries, but gaining independence from an erstwhile entity, all countries born out of that be kept away. Queen is still the head of these countries, they have a lot in common, hence they may prefer skaters from one another as well.

 

[Willin]

@Domshabfan What I meant by "former federation" is that the actual individual judge would've formerly been a member of the skating federation. So, say, if California does leave the US and starts its own skating federation, a theoretical Country of California Judge who was formerly a USFSA member could not serve on the same panel as a USFSA judge.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I also doubt it's even possible to be a competent judge with an actual background in skating without knowing people in the skating world (local skating clubs in your area, knowing coaches, skaters, officials in federation, choreographers, tech specialists, judges, etc.). It's a very small world and not many people share an interest in skating so people would want to know each other who share that passion.

Totally agree. I am not sure how you would get people with knowledge who have no connection to the sport.

 

[Aussie Willy]

@Domshabfan What I meant by "former federation" is that the actual individual judge would've formerly been a member of the skating federation. So, say, if California does leave the US and starts its own skating federation, a theoretical Country of California Judge who was formerly a USFSA member could not serve on the same panel as a USFSA judge.

Didn't these problems arise when the USSR disbanded? You had a whole host of judges who used to be Soviet judges. Then there was the issue of allegiances to Russia.

 

[overedge]

What you are proposing is not switching countries, but gaining independence from an erstwhile entity, all countries born out of that be kept away. Queen is still the head of these countries, they have a lot in common, hence they may prefer skaters from one another as well.

I can't say that I've noticed a lot of suspicious unexplained correlations between the marks of judges from e.g. Canada, the UK, and Australia. Allegiance to the Queen doesn't have a lot of influence on cross-national bias in skating.

 

[missing]

Major league baseball umpires are paid professionals, so out of curiosity, I googled to see how far down the chain umpires are paid, and found this:

How much money does a high school umpire make?
The pay scale depends on the level of play that you are umpping. Little league pays between $25 and $50 per game. High school starts at around $50 or more. College ball pays over $100 per game.

The information comes from this article.

I've never understood how any judge self-identified as coming from a federation could be regarded as unbiased. My guess is if it were determined that judges must be hired by the ISU, independent of federations, that concept would become as natural to the sport as any of the other rules that have been imposed over the years.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

If John Jackson's book, "On Edge: Backroom Dealing, Cocktail Scheming, Triple Axels, and How Top Skaters Get Screwed", is any indication, judging was a big old country club where lobbying and networking formed a major part of who won (and who didn't).

 

[snoopy]

The suggestions in the article made by “outsiders” aren’t anything that hasn’t been suggested here before.

One cheaper suggestion made before that isn’t exactly repeated here is to exclude judges from worlds and Olympics when their country has a skater ranked in the top 6 - by world rankings. So for dance: no US, no Canadian, no French, and no Russian judge.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

How about using The Great Skate Debate tv show format where select audience members and home viewers vote to decide the winners!

 

[Deleted member 40371]

How about using The Great Skate Debate format where select audience members and home viewers vote to decide the winners!

gold, silver and bronze to China .... New Eurovision voting

 

[Aussie Willy]

Major league baseball umpires are paid professionals, so out of curiosity, I googled to see how far down the chain umpires are paid, and found this:

How much money does a high school umpire make?
The pay scale depends on the level of play that you are umpping. Little league pays between $25 and $50 per game. High school starts at around $50 or more. College ball pays over $100 per game.

At those lower levels that really isn't being paid. It is more a reimbursement for expenses such as petrol. It doesn't make them professional.

 

[skateboy]

Doesn't anyone think that at least some Olympic judges are in it to judge fairly?

 

[bardtoob]

During SP of the Men's competition at the 1988 Olympics, Uncle Dick made a comment about National Bias being reflected in the marks . . .

 

[Aussie Willy]

Doesn't anyone think that at least some Olympic judges are in it to judge fairly?

I do. But I must be biased because I am a judge.

 

[Bunny Hop]

Doesn't anyone think that at least some Olympic judges are in it to judge fairly?

I do. I am not a judge.

 

[Twilight1]

Why not the rule be designed in such a way whereby we prevent two countries having the same head of state also not be on panel, so Australia, Canada and Britain ? ... I would also prefer only one judge from Schengen countries. For me that makes more sense than stopping countries that gained independence from another be not on the panel.

In addition to this, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Moldova, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Belarus etc etc can all just have one judge so to also prevent former USSR bias.

 

[BlueRidge]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I do think this sport has an image problem and I do think even skaters themselves complain or are perplexed by the judging. When I say image, I don't mean changing the sport but the judging. We fans complain about it so much and we understand the sport and its culture more than outsiders do. I think some times we get defensive when outsiders criticize our sport that we don't look for viable solutions to improve the situation and we end up in our own bubble. I'm not saying outsiders have all the answers or that they even have practical solutions, but I'm of the opinion that if there's something that we could work on, why not at least brainstorm for solutions about things even we have problems with while still keeping the sport that we love rather than burying our heads in the sand.

I know for me, I reacted to the article because every four years we get people suggesting "fixes" that aren't actually fixes because they don't deal with the real world issues of how to have a professional paid independent judging corps for figure skating. I find it exasperating to have the issues detailed without any realistic look at how they really could be addressed. Of course figure skating would be more fairly judged if the judges were created ex nihilo and kept entirely separate from the rest of the skating world.

I think nearly all fans know that politics plays a role because having judges is dependent on national federations and volunteers. I for one was not reacting to the idea that there are problems (though I do think there are certainly judges who strive for professionalism nonetheless) but to the idea that all we need to do is look at the problems and solutions will present themselves. Yes and all one needs to do when one needs money is to visualize dollars and voila... etc.

And I'm damn cranky about this freaking Olympics thing...

 

[Coco]

I don't know of any sport that has a huge budget for officials and yet most of them manage to pay their officials.

I officiate women's lacrosse and a lot of times the payment to the officials breaks down to less than $5 per athlete on the field. So if you think about it in those terms, it's not that much. I think where figure skating does run into a unique challenge is that the competitions are so long.

On a related note, it might be nice to start a different competitive format, call it "Jump, Spin, Skate," where instead of competing with programs, skaters get to compete on specific jumps, optional jumps, spins and compulsory footwork patterns. Maybe this already exists. I wouldn't know because I'm just a fan from my couch.

But I think it would be great at the developmental levels because it would bring the cost of putting a program and a costume together down for parents. It would also create events that are a little shorter in nature. This would make them easier to stage and easier for grandparents and friends and siblings to attend on a Saturday afternoon.

 

[gkelly]

I can't say that I've noticed a lot of suspicious unexplained correlations between the marks of judges from e.g. Canada, the UK, and Australia. Allegiance to the Queen doesn't have a lot of influence on cross-national bias in skating.

There's surely no relation between allegiance to the Queen per se and vote trading in skating.

However, I do think there are cultural preferences that trend in different directions among anglophone vs. russophone skaters/coaches/judges, especially in ice dance (Brits dominated that sport until the 1970s when Soviets largely took over the dominance), with France perhaps representing the largest countertrend apart from those two.

I think these cultural differences have become more homogenized as the sport becomes more global, as more skaters train with coaches from different parts of the world, and dancers partner with skaters from other parts of the world, but vestiges still remain.

Of course there is still the issue of judges feeling national pride and wanting their compatriots to place well, and what if anything they're willing to do on the judges' stand or in backroom deals to actively help that to happen.

All judges have biases, and so do all fans and all commentators -- the network producers trying to sell skating to nationally biased casual viewers are probably the worst.

There are two different issues.

One is intrinsic, generally unconscious, national bias that comes from shared culture, patriotism, and familiarity. That can never be avoided and is not nefarious, but it is a good idea to try to get a broad cross section of different loyalties and points of view on each judging panel.

The other is intentional score manipulation by individual judges, and even worse outright deal making between judges to help each others' skaters and hold down perceived rivals.

The latter is cheating and should be guarded against and punished when discovered.

But statistics alone, or just eyeballing protocols, can't tell motivation, can't tell the difference between dishonest manipulation and the honest bias that we all possess.

 

[gkelly]

I don't know of any sport that has a huge budget for officials and yet most of them manage to pay their officials.

I officiate women's lacrosse and a lot of times the payment to the officials breaks down to less than $5 per athlete on the field. So if you think about it in those terms, it's not that much. I think where figure skating does run into a unique challenge is that the competitions are so long.

Yes, and also that many locations that want to hold local competitions do not have many, or any, qualified judges. And multiple judges are needed for each event -- at the very minimum, 3 judges with 1 of them also serving as referee. (And at least 1 accountant.)

So officials have to be brought in from elsewhere. Therefore, judges are reimbursed for travel expenses rather than paid directly. Local judges may receive very little or even forgo reimbursement from their local clubs, whereas key officials imported from a thousand miles away will cost the club much more than payments to a local judge or a local lacrosse official.

Should it be easier for local skaters or parents or fans to become officials? Perhaps. I can say that the opportunity is there and many clubs probably wish that more local adult skaters and parents and fans would step up to become officials.

On a related note, it might be nice to start a different competitive format, call it "Jump, Spin, Skate," where instead of competing with programs, skaters get to compete on specific jumps, optional jumps, spins and compulsory footwork patterns. Maybe this already exists. I wouldn't know because I'm just a fan from my couch.

But I think it would be great at the developmental levels because it would bring the cost of putting a program and a costume together down for parents. It would also create events that are a little shorter in nature. This would make them easier to stage and easier for grandparents and friends and siblings to attend on a Saturday afternoon.

I can't speak for other locations, but within the US, many local clubs host competitions that serve skaters of all levels. There are also competitions specifically for very beginner through preliminary level only.

These competitions usually include freeskating events for each level and also one or more of jump events, spin events, compulsory moves (a half-ice no-music short program equivalent for levels that don't have short programs), entertainment events, etc. Some club competitions include dance and solo dance events -- those require officials with dance appointments.

The larger competitions last a whole day or a whole weekend -- the very largest summer competitions may last close to a week.

IJS events require bringing in more specialized officials and equipment from further away, so it's more efficient to offer all levels of IJS events at the same competition, and also non-IJS events that can use more local judges as long as the ice is rented and there are multiple officials on hand.

But for an individual local skater who is only entered in one or maybe two events, the time commitment is usually only a few hours at most, including signing in and getting changed and warming up off ice before the on-ice warmup. Practice sessions are usually available but optional. Local grandparents, friends, etc., can show up just for the one event their skater is competing in.

More serious competitors often travel to competitions outside their local areas, which is more of a commitment of time and money. If they'll have to stay overnight anyway, they may as well enter multiple events. And if they travel to an area where their non-local grandparents or other family members live, the relatives can show up just to see their skater compete. And then they can all leave the rink to visit afterward, and/or before, depending on the competition schedule.

 

[Skittl1321]

On a related note, it might be nice to start a different competitive format, call it "Jump, Spin, Skate," where instead of competing with programs, skaters get to compete on specific jumps, optional jumps, spins and compulsory footwork patterns. Maybe this already exists. I wouldn't know because I'm just a fan from my couch.

But I think it would be great at the developmental levels because it would bring the cost of putting a program and a costume together down for parents. It would also create events that are a little shorter in nature. This would make them easier to stage and easier for grandparents and friends and siblings to attend on a Saturday afternoon.

The "Jump, Spin, Skate" exists at the developmental level. There are compulsory programs, where they have to do all 3 of those, and at some competitions there are jump only, spin only, etc competitions. And if you look at the jumping competition in Colorado it exists at the higher level too.

ISI actually even has coaches judge their own skaters- they say that like teachers grade their own pupils, a judge should set aside their bias and judge against the established standard. Of course, they aren't judging the Olympics.