Lu Chen 1997 Worlds SP- How Would You Score It?

[tony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16KSScHLhb0

It's basically the off-season. Here come these threads.

Re-watching a bit of random skating tonight... I understand the two major jump mistakes, the sub-par spins (especially the back half of the combination spin), and overall slow skating, but the scores go all the way down to 3.0, and she was placed LAST of the 16 skaters to that point by 3 judges IIRC. The second mark is even more surprising for me, with one judge opting to go as low as 4.2.

She ended the night in 25th place, and the rules were the same back then- 24 qualify to the free skate.

So was she really just held down by the entire panel, or did her skating here really warrant scores that low on both marks?

FWIW, I don't know what place I'd officially have her in as a few ladies were never broadcast by any network, but I don't think my own scores would be severely lower than some skaters just inside the top 10.

 

[barbk]

In that era? Popping jumps such that they didn't meet minimum rotation requirements in the SP was a killer. She did it twice. Meh-minus spins (and this in the era of Lucinda Ruh) don't help, though I did like her layback position. Very little footwork into what was intended as the solo jump (that she turned into a combo after missing the planned combo) though I don't think that was much of a deduction at that point.

Still one of my all time favorite openings of an SP, and one of the few Bezic creations I ever liked. Chen Lu looked completely comfortable with the choreography.

So sorry she was injured that season. Doing the opening run for this at Worlds is tough.

 

[Japanfan]

I didn't watch the competition and haven't seen this program before.

TBH I expected that she must have blown all her jumps to have finished in 25th place. So, I was surprised that she landed the 3-2.

It's hard to imagine that of all 24 who came before her, none made an equal number of costly mistakes. There are usually some very poor skates in the bottom half of the pack.

Also I think the Presentation marks were low. Chen still sold that program and performed well, IMO.

 

[briancoogaert]

Back to this day, I was really surprised by the results. The reigning Silver medalist only 25th...
But it was so much better for her in fact. She was out of shape. And it would have been worse in the LP. So, I'm glad she didn't have to skate the LP (of course, I would have loved to watch her program, but not with such a bad shape).

 

[LarrySK8]

IIRC, under 6.0, the gist of the scoring was that the skater started from 0.0 and was earning points toward the perfect mark of 6.0. However, in the change to ordinals, the notion of 6.0 being 'perfect' was altered somewhat to one where 6.0 was/could be the first place mark, but not reflect 'perfect' skating. The artistic mark was even more nebulous with items such as 'security,' 'speed,' 'flow' and other qualitative, but not quantitative, terminology.

So, under the old system, if a skater tried a jump and fell, the judge was instructed to award zero credit and pretend that it never happened, as to accurately judge the choreography and program without penalizing both marks for the fall.

In the SP, IIRC, there were 'omissions,' and 'failures" on elements. Omissions were more severe than failures, and I believe the amount of marks the skater did not earn for the type of element varied based on the importance of the element.

That SP had 2 omissions, 1) the footwork into solo double or triple element had neither steps or the jump (1 lutz) and, 2) a single axel instead of a double. This could have been as severe as not earning 2.0 points due to omissions (was there a range? I can't recall) and starting with a base mark of 4.0.

Now, add points for an easier jump combination (3 toe-2toe) that was under-rotated, easier and small pattern footwork and a 0.1-0.2 spin deduction on the quality of the spins, and it adds up.

The 'base' mark for that program was possibly as low as 3.6 - 3.8 for some judges. That explains why they go down to 3.2. Dick Button said it best, "oh, she's not going to get any marks for this at all."

For the artistic mark, she was slow, weaker than the best women, did not really fill out the rink and for a SP, omitted 2 elements. How can it earn SP points? Going low into the 4.0 - 5.0 range can be discussed, but it is not out-of-line with the program she skated.

 

[Erin]

Isn’t this discussion kind of pointless in a vacuum under 6.0? The marks themselves were only a means to a ranking, so let’s look at a few of the closest competitors who knocked her out of the free program. Here are the SPs ranked 21 through 24:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpAfl7IfE4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpBSPum4nWs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0sJHcTimWU4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GLQbUji7xnM

Basically you have two almost clean programs with weak basic skating/ presentation/spins (Drei and Grundberg), Suguri with a fall and a double but the double still technically fulfills the required elements and ok but not great on the basics/spins/presentation (she got a lot better later), and then Humphreys falling on two jumps and but very strong on everything else.

It’s probably easiest to make the direct comparison to Humphreys because the two programs are the most similar in that they were both strong skaters who made mistakes - even though obviously Humphreys didn’t ever have the success that Chen had, her quality really stands out compared to the other skaters finishing around this level. Humphreys got more credit for falling on jumps that met the requirements than Chen did for popping jumps, Humphreys had better spins and spirals. Chen probably has a better program but Humphreys still has a good program. I can see why the Humphreys program beat Chen’s.

 

[LarrySK8]

Humphreys got more credit for falling on jumps that met the requirements than Chen did for popping jumps, Humphreys had better spins and spirals. Chen probably has a better program but Humphreys still has a good program. I can see why the Humphreys program beat Chen’s.

Absolutely. Omissions were more severe than failures, and Humphreys did not have any omissions. Humphreys had better quality elements that day, especially the spins.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Isn’t this discussion kind of pointless in a vacuum under 6.0? The marks themselves were only a means to a ranking, so let’s look at a few of the closest competitors who knocked her out of the free program. Here are the SPs ranked 21 through 24:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpAfl7IfE4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wpBSPum4nWs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0sJHcTimWU4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GLQbUji7xnM

Basically you have two almost clean programs with weak basic skating/ presentation/spins (Drei and Grundberg), Suguri with a fall and a double but the double still technically fulfills the required elements and ok but not great on the basics/spins/presentation (she got a lot better later), and then Humphreys falling on two jumps and but very strong on everything else.

It’s probably easiest to make the direct comparison to Humphreys because the two programs are the most similar in that they were both strong skaters who made mistakes - even though obviously Humphreys didn’t ever have the success that Chen had, her quality really stands out compared to the other skaters finishing around this level. Humphreys got more credit for falling on jumps that met the requirements than Chen did for popping jumps, Humphreys had better spins and spirals. Chen probably has a better program but Humphreys still has a good program. I can see why the Humphreys program beat Chen’s.

Such a shame that nerves and injury hobbled Susan Humpheys potential.

I was able to see her at the 1994 Canadian Championships, and her free program was electrifying to watch in person.

 

[coppertop1]

Did she get the required number of revolutions on her spins? The Chinese back then weren't grea to spinners. If she didn't, that would be another deduction.

 

[alchemy void]

wheeeeeeeeee, off season threads!

Considering Bobek was gifted 17th place in the Nagano SP with similar technical content and deductions: 3flutz (fall), 2toe, and 2axel (stepout), I do think 25th place was harsh for this skate, less than a year earlier. Yes, Bobek had better spins, speed, and everything else, but still.

I'm totally fine with required elements scores in the 3s, considering two single jumps, poor spins, and not much speed. And this was the era when you absolutely needed 3lutz to be considered for anything.

However, that dress and the opening choreography alone demand 5.3 at the minimum for presentation! Really, the presentation scores really should have put her into the final, regardless of how many deductions you can find.

Fumie is one of my favorite ladies of all time, but she got so lucky to place ahead of Lu here.

But it was so much better for her in fact. She was out of shape. And it would have been worse in the LP. So, I'm glad she didn't have to skate the LP (of course, I would have loved to watch her program, but not with such a bad shape).

This is a good point. The LP probably would have even more of a struggle, but I still would have wanted to see that program!

 

[alchemy void]

Absolutely. Omissions were more severe than failures, and Humphreys did not have any omissions. Humphreys had better quality elements that day, especially the spins.

bring back the eyelashes, plz

 

[LarrySK8]

bring back the eyelashes, plz

You mean the spidery eye lashes and spider-eye? What is wrong with the Harry Potter/Voldemort avatar?

 

[lala]

I can't score it but I liked Lulu so much! I'm happy with your thread

 

[lala]

You mean the spidery eye lashes and spider-eye? What is wrong with the Harry Potter/Voldemort avatar?

ugly..

 

[Habs]

Such a shame that nerves and injury hobbled Susan Humpheys potential.

I was able to see her at the 1994 Canadian Championships, and her free program was electrifying to watch in person.

I always liked Susan's skating. It's a shame she was injured and could never really get it together.

 

[arakwafan2006]

I’mpre surprised that Jeff Billings did the costume ? No way. Looks like a practice dress

 

[coppertop1]

With almost everyone skating so poorly, it comes down to the other elements and the overall program. Lu had two omissions and an easier combination. Her spins were weaker and she didn't have the usual spark. Even under the IJS, it would have had a similar result.

I always liked Susan's skating. It's a shame she was injured and could never really get it together.

I felt so badly for Susan. She finally wins the Canadian title then she's injured and is accused of being a whimp. Then she's crucified for failing that qualify a berth for the 1998 Olympics. I think mental health was an issue for her. It was sad.

 

[gkelly]

6.0 deductions as of August 2000

 

[tony]

http://iceskatingintnl.com/archive/rules/deduct1.htm

This may be what was used beginning in the 1996 season-- there's no date but Ice Skating International goes back to around that time with links. Also, the Eurosport commentators for the very first skater on the ice seem to follow this general method of deducting.

Of note here:

An omission means the element wasn't even tried. The maximum deduction that can be taken if an element is attempted, no matter how badly, is 0.1 less than the deduction for an omission. For example, the deduction for omitting the axel jump is 0.5, but if the skater throws the jump and does a waltz jump, or doesn't even rotate, the maximum deduction is 0.4. When an element has more than one error, the maximum error is the sum of the individual errors up to a maximum of 0.1 less than the deduction for an omission.

Now, this is not to say that the judges could start the base value of the technical mark much lower because of the missed elements, but as far as an *official* deduction, only 0.4 could have been taken for each of the single Axel and the single Lutz.

 

[tony]

BTW- Kulovana and Markova, as far as I can tell, were never shown by any broadcaster so we don't know what they did to end up in 14th and 15th. However, I'd say 16th-place Eva-Marie Fitze would've been pretty much neck-and-neck with Chen on my scorecard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYufN_1CXJk

 

[Aussie Willy]

I had never seen that program before but I heard about it. Really loved the choreography and expression to the music. While she missed a couple of the major jumps (but didn't fall), it was still very good.

6.0 was a placement system and the judges would have had to deduct for the missed elements. But without having looked at the marks, it probably should have still been up there at least in presentation. Nothing really to deduct on that.

 

[gk_891]

I can understand why her second marks were low. Her mistakes really took the energy out of her program (what little there was of it anyways since she was badly out of shape as others have mentioned) and I think everyone knew she was going to receive little marks for what she presented on the ice.

 

[LarrySK8]

it was still very good

Agree.

Under 6.0, wasn't 5.0 to mean "excellent," and 4.0 to mean, "good," and 3.0 to mean, "fair."? Artistic mark of 4.0 - 4.5 would seem correct for a very good program.

 

[tony]

Agree.

Under 6.0, wasn't 5.0 to mean "excellent," and 4.0 to mean, "good," and 3.0 to mean, "fair."? Artistic mark of 4.0 - 4.5 would seem correct for a very good program.

No decent skater in the World Championships or any senior international was going to receive a 4.0 or even 4.5 for presentation for a ‘very good’ program. There were weaker skaters in this very field (among those ranked above her, I’d say Carter, Lavrenchuk, Malinina, Yokoya, Drei, Grundberg, Suguri— who were all hovering around at least a 5.0). Ludmila Nelidina was even pulling off presentation marks in the 5’s in 2002-2003.

Both scores, as we all know, were really just placeholders for the overall total, which then determined the ordinal. What tended to happen in the short program is since there *are* mandatory deductions in the segment, the technical mark is not really negotiable— but raising the presentation mark to make sure Skater A beat Skater B.. we probably saw plenty of that throughout time.

 

[LarrySK8]

There were weaker skaters in this very field (among those ranked above her, I’d say Carter, Lavrenchuk, Malinina, Yokoya, Drei, Grundberg, Suguri— who were all hovering around at least a 5.0).

And interestingly, a skater like Lucinda Ruh often got second marks in the 4.5-5.0- range, which I never understood.

 

[VGThuy]

I read some post many many years ago that there might have been some politicking involved so that countries could qualify for Nagano without having to go through the Fall qualification competition and sacrificed Lu Chen to better ensure they could get a guaranteed spot. I guess we have to look at the judging panel and see if they had skaters who benefitted from Chen's inability to qualify for the LP. To be honest, other than the opening, I don't mind this performance resulting in Chen being unable to qualify for the free.

 

[bardtoob]

I like the Y position in her combo spin. I am impressed that she could do it.

 

[gk_891]

And interestingly, a skater like Lucinda Ruh often got second marks in the 4.5-5.0- range, which I never understood.

Same here. I thought her second marks should've been much higher. She was beautiful to watch.

 

[gk_891]

Back to this day, I was really surprised by the results. The reigning Silver medalist only 25th...
But it was so much better for her in fact. She was out of shape. And it would have been worse in the LP. So, I'm glad she didn't have to skate the LP (of course, I would have loved to watch her program, but not with such a bad shape).

If she had qualified for the LP and bombed it as well, that could've potentially wrecked her reputation even further, thus making it harder for her to climb back up the rankings by the time the 1998 Olympics came around. It was probably for the best in the long run.

 

[casken]

I read some post many many years ago that there might have been some politicking involved so that countries could qualify for Nagano without having to go through the Fall qualification competition and sacrificed Lu Chen to better ensure they could get a guaranteed spot. I guess we have to look at the judging panel and see if they had skaters who benefitted from Chen's inability to qualify for the LP. To be honest, other than the opening, I don't mind this performance resulting in Chen being unable to qualify for the free.

Yup, that was the leading theory at the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened.