1997 Worlds Ladies LP - Lipinski/Kwan/Slutskaya

[NAOTMAA]

I agree, and it's even more amazing that (according to Christine Brennan's books) Tara's musical tastes were very limited at the time, and she basically said "no" to anything that wasn't Disney soundtrack music. Bezic had to do a lot of work to find something that Tara wanted to skate to and that she felt she could choreograph to. Also, when Bezic usually did a program, she would work with the skater as they learned it, and then would be invited back later on to see how it had developed or to help the skater polish it. Once Tara's programs were finished, Team Tara never brought Bezic back to look at the programs again.

It's funny you say Disney soundtrack because her Olympic short, Anastasia, was by 20th Century Fox. A lot of people think that killed any possibility of her working with Disney post Olympics (the House of Mouse can be very petty). It was Michelle who ended up getting the $$$$ Disney contract and her own skating special when Mulan came out later that year.

Of course now that Disney has eaten 20th Anastasia is Disney!

 

[overedge]

It's funny you say Disney soundtrack because her Olympic short, Anastasia, was by 20th Century Fox. A lot of people think that killed any possibility of her working with Disney post Olympics (the House of Mouse can be very petty). It was Michelle who ended up getting the $$$$ Disney contract and her own skating special when Mulan came out later that year.

Of course now that Disney has eaten 20th Anastasia is Disney!

Maybe "Disney-ish" would have been a better description.

 

[VGThuy]

It was really good timing Mulan was coming out when it did for Kwan. She ended up having four years of Disney specials post-Nagano. It also helped that ABC had the rights to ISU and USFS competitions (just not the Olympics) during the Kwan era, which were owned by Disney.

I have to say one of Kwan’s best exhibitions was surprisingly her Pocahontas one. Lori did a great job making it seem less Disney-ish and even mature and dare I say it...soulful.

It was good enough to beat Kristi at their one head-to-head when Dream of Desdemona was not. I mean Kristi did make a mistake but this program from Kwan was good enough to take advantage:

https://youtu.be/sPoMBAETdOk

 

[Coco]

This is the article I was thinking about:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1998/03/...left-with-a-really-cool-keepsake-a-gold-medal

All season Lipinski's main focus has been on improving her
artistry. In Detroit, where she trains, she takes daily
instruction from Russian ballet teacher Marina Sheffer, then
practices positions for hours in front of a mirror. While
studying the tapes, she was looking for little things on which
to improve. Both Lipinski's programs were choreographed by
Sandra Bezic, who hadn't seen her skate them in person since
last August, and Bezic was in Nagano doing commentary for the
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. After sitting through a
couple of practices, she began E-mailing Lipinski with small
suggestions. Bezic thought she might speed up her circular
footwork near the conclusion of her short program, that she
should spread her arms at the start of her spiral sequence. She
suggested Lipinski alter the final position of her arms in the
long program, so that one was upraised instead of lying folded
across her chest.

Lipinski tried the ideas in practice, then studied how they
looked on tape. Cumulatively, they made a difference.
Imperceptibly, the artistic gap between her and Kwan was
narrowing. During Wednesday's short program, skating to a song
from the movie Anastasia, Lipinski was luminous--fast and light
and joyful. "It didn't seem like me," she said after viewing the
tape. "I could actually see myself as Anastasia. Emotionally, it
was my best program ever."

 

[DreamSkates]

It's very difficult IMO. Kwan was the clear winner of the LP, but she made a mistake in the SP. Lipinski really didn't have the SS to be World Champion. But her performances were amazing.
Slutskaya's LP was impressive but not clean, and her SP had a big mistake.
IMO, the LP was well judged. Not the SP.

And how often have we seen that the one who skated cleanest won despite the talent and skills. I remember there were years of splatfests.

 

[VGThuy]

Some worlds (and Olympics) are easier than others.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

if Kwan wasn't so cautious and slow (and injured I guess) she would have easily won.

Bezic is deluded if she thinks a few arm positions made the difference. It's called speed and 2 triple triples.

 

[briancoogaert]

if Kwan wasn't so cautious and slow (and injured I guess) she would have easily won.

Bezic is deluded if she thinks a few arm positions made the difference. It's called speed and 2 triple triples.

I don't understand, she won the LP, and didn't win the SP because of a mistake. What's the link with speed and 2 triple-triples ?

 

[tony]

I don't understand, she won the LP, and didn't win the SP because of a mistake. What's the link with speed and 2 triple-triples ?

I think this refers to the comments Bezic made from the quoted article regarding 1998 Olympics

 

[briancoogaert]

I think this refers to the comments Bezic made from the quoted article regarding 1998 Olympics

Ah OK ! Then I see ! I was like . But if it's about the Olympics, I totally agree !

 

[Deleted member 221]

Late to this thread.

I agree with @essence_of_soy that Lipinski's 1996 free skate stands out, much like Midori Ito's late-80s programs, as being way ahead of its time. I could make a case for it being as high as third in the free skate. (If you want to see another, ahead-of-its-time, undermarked program from that Worlds, look at Shen and Zhao.)

I loved Lipinski's 1997 programs. I saw her live several times between 1996 and 1998, and "electrifying" is a great adjective. There was a wonderful fearlessness that gave her skating speed, fluidity, and ease, in sharp contrast to Kwan's tentativeness for much of those two seasons. I remember in December 1996 watching "Little Women" at the pro-am, thinking that the trumpets were announcing the coming of a new champion. Although Lipinski bombed that event, she had an unstoppable aura that I've never seen before or since. I felt she was a superior skater to Kwan that season. I'd have had her first in the free skate at Worlds, on both marks. For me, the toss-up was between Slutskaya and Kwan, and there's as strong of a case for Kwan bronze as there is for Kwan gold.

 

[Erin]

As I rewatched 1997 Worlds, it struck me that Tara’s skating has stood the test of time really well, flutz aside. I would much rather watch her programs than the Eteri-bots. I was (and am) a huge Michelle Kwan fan, but I still always enjoyed Tara too.

 

[bardtoob]

I agree with @essence_of_soy that Lipinski's 1996 free skate stands out, much like Midori Ito's late-80s programs, as being way ahead of its time.

I disagree on the grounds that Midori with Tonya and Kristi were way ahead of Lipinski with Irina and Michelle. The later were just catching up.

 

[VGThuy]

To be fair to Irina, Tara, and Kwan, they were expected to lay down consistent 7 triple routines more than Midori, Tonya, and Kristi did and they had more competitions to do. In the case of Kwan and Irina, they had to do it for almost a decade. Look at how Albertville was skated. Had Kwan skated like Kristi with doubling a jump and falling or nearly falling on another, people would say it was a bad skate for her because she set a high expectation for the fans through her high rate of hitting 6-7 triples usually always with two triple lutzes. Despite sometimes getting a triple axel (once a season if it’s a good season for them), Midori and Tonya I don’t think ever hit 6 triples consistently. Maybe 5 on a good day for them. And Kwan, Irina, and Tara already surpassed Tonya in 1994 and Midori in 1996 because they couldn’t sustain that level either.

 

[meggonzo]

I recall Midori typically doing at least 6 triples.

 

[VGThuy]

That’s true; in the two international competitions a season she had to do.

 

[Erin]

I recall Midori typically doing at least 6 triples.

You recall correctly. From 1986 on, she was generally attempting seven, but would often double out on one jump to keep her from hitting all seven. The characterization of "maybe 5 on a good day for them" is just not true for Midori. On the contrary, I can only think of a few occasions when Midori didn't land at least five triples in a free skate - 1988 Worlds, 1991 Worlds where she was badly injured, and her ill-fated comeback at 1996 Worlds.

I've got a pretty good memory of a lot of Midori's skates and I may have spent the evening watching the ones I didn't remember/hadn't seen. She may not have competed as often as Michelle and Irina, but the number of 5-7 triple skates she put out was amazing (caveat that I can’t find a full version of 1986 NHK but there were at least four triples from the clips I saw):

5 triples: 1984 Worlds, 1986 Worlds, 1990 Skate America, 1992 Olympics*

6 triples: 1984 Skate Canada, 1984 NHK (with triple axel attempt!), 1985 NHK, 1987 Worlds, 1987 NHK, 1988 NHK*, 1990 Worlds*, 1990 NHK*, 1991 Lalique*, 1991 NHK*

7 triples: 1988 Olympics, 1989 Worlds*, 1989 NHK*

Almost all of these programs included a clean triple-triple and all the ones with a star had a clean triple axel. And there was also the double axel-euler-triple sal she was doing in 1986 through 1988.

I'm not sure why someone needs to put down Midori to build up anyone else? I don't know if we will ever see another skater who was as remarkable an athlete as Midori was.

 

[VGThuy]

I take back what I said about Midori, but it was response to another poster not fully appreciating the schedule, high skill level, and what it took to maintain that level for a decade (which nobody pointed out my initial post was a response to so they think me putting someone down came from nowhere when it was already a defensive post to another poster putting them down). I often think what Kwan and Slutskaya (and even Tara) managed to do is often overlooked and underappreciated actually because that era came in-between the 3A wonders and then was followed by the Yuna Kim/Mao years and now the Eteri years. I wish people understood it took the Kwan era to lay down the higher expectations (not only in terms of quantity of landed triples but everything else to make a more complete skater) and to get coaches to form new techniques to teach skaters to do 3/3s and harder jumps more consistently to the point where it's now the norm.

Regarding, Midori, she not only had the raw athleticism but also had the coaching, and ability and desire to listen to that coaching to go with it. I'm assuming she had a supportive home life to condition her to do so. Tonya I think had the most raw athleticism I've ever seen. Too bad things weren't the same for her.

 

[Erin]

I take back what I said about Midori, but it was response to another poster not fully appreciating the schedule, high skill level, and what it took to maintain that level for a decade (which nobody pointed out my initial post was a response to so they think me putting someone down came from nowhere when it was already a defensive post to another poster putting them down).

Ah...well, I had to show ignored content to understand what you were responding to, so I admit, I was a touch confused. And after reading the post you responded to, I don't think it even made sense. But at least I ended up spending an evening watching all of Midori Ito's NHK skates, so I don't think it was time wasted

I agree in general on the rest of your points (although I think Kwan generally does get quite a bit of credit on this forum and I say that as a big fan).

 

[bardtoob]

I'm assuming she had a supportive home life to condition her to do so. Tonya I think had the most raw athleticism I've ever seen. Too bad things weren't the same for her.

Midori lived with Yamada from a young age, if I recall correctly, because Midori's parents divorced. However, I do not think everybody was as manipulating, controlling or looking to Midori as meal ticket the same way Tonya's circle was looking at Tonya.

 

[Marco]

For me, the toss-up was between Slutskaya and Kwan, and there's as strong of a case for Kwan bronze as there is for Kwan gold.

Guess this depends on how you place Irina relative to Michelle after the short too.

 

[VGThuy]

My personal fave performance from 1997 Worlds:

Michelle Kwan - Winter (1997)

@1997 World Figure Skating ChampionshipsMusic by Tori Amos

youtu.be

If Kwan had an Olympic program that showcased her line and edges like that.... It wonder if it says anything that Kwan choreographed that program herself as opposed to Lori. Oh well. Things always work out the way they're meant to, I guess.

 

[giselle23]

I recall Midori typically doing at least 6 triples.

I'm pretty sure Midori did some 7 triple programs. At 1989 NHK, she did a 3A and 3-3. I don't remember the total count of triples but it was certainly possible.
ETA: 7 triples, with a 3A and the 3-3 past the 3 minute mark. Talk about being ahead of her time!

 

[meggonzo]

I'm pretty sure Midori did some 7 triple programs. At 1989 NHK, she did a 3A and 3-3. I don't remember the total count of triples but it was certainly possible.
ETA: 7 triples, with a 3A and the 3-3 past the 3 minute mark. Talk about being ahead of her time!

@Erin posted a detailed list above!

 

[Yazmeen]

My biggest objection to Tara's gold medals? She never did a triple lutz in her entire skating life, they were technically all triple flips - hell, her ankle used the bend so far to the inside edge at the last moment before she picked in that it looked painful. Sasha Cohen was the same way. But in the "old days," this wasn't really penalized. And yes, I know Kwan sometimes did hers on the flat, her lutzes were not perfect either. To me, one of the legacies of that era is a whole bunch of young skaters learning triples without learning textbook technique, because for the longest time, it didn't matter if you were on the wrong edge and actually doing the wrong jump.

I don't remember if was here or the old FSW, but someone got back at one of the Sasha fanatics who claimed she "never flutzed" by posting about 8 screen captures showing Sasha clearly on her inside edge in the lutz corner before she picked in for the jump. Masterful burn.

 

[thvu]

That was @Andrey aka Pushkin ! The delusional Sasha fan was Bondo.

 

[VGThuy]

That was @Andrey aka Pushkin ! The delusional Sasha fan was Bondo.

OMG. Blast from the past!

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

From thvudragon:

That was @Andrey aka Pushkin ! The delusional Sasha fan was Bondo.

OMG. Blast from the past!

Blast of what and from which orifice - I have my opinion on both regarding Bondo (I nearly typed Bonzo).

 

[Erin]

I feel like this thread and the “Fans are getting out of hand” thread are converging.

 

[Marco]

7 triples: 1988 Olympics, 1989 Worlds*, 1989 NHK*

Almost all of these programs included a clean triple-triple and all the ones with a star had a clean triple axel. And there was also the double axel-euler-triple sal she was doing in 1986 through 1988.

Pardon the thread drift, I just feel it's a pity that Midori never came close to landing 8 triples. She totally could do it too. When she started going for the 3axel, she left out the 2nd 3sal.

I think it wasn't until Yoshie Onda in the early 2000s who started to regularly attempt 8 triples, yet she never really had the 3axel clean. Kimmie Meissner at 2005 Nationals was close too, but she backed out of one 3/3. The first lady to land 8 clean triples (without breaching Zayak) might have done so in recent years only - Elizaveta? Rika? Mirai did it at 2018 Olympics in the team event.