1997 Worlds Ladies LP - Lipinski/Kwan/Slutskaya

Skibean said:
For some reason I’ve always thought she fell. I think I need to rewatch. I finally rewatched Nagano Olympics. I still would’ve had Michelle take the gold, but Tara skated better than I gave her credit for.
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No, just a big step out in the middle of her combo.
 
^Funny how when one revisits competitions from years or even decades prior, one reassesses those skaters that one didn't like / felt meh about before. That happened to me with Witt for example.
 
olympic said:
^Funny how when one revisits competitions from years or even decades prior, one reassesses those skaters that one didn't like / felt meh about before. That happened to me with Witt for example.
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There is no denying Witt's reputation to deliver when it counted.

I am reminded of a short interview with Jirena Ribbens where she said there are skaters who may be more talented than Katarina, but few who were more competitive.
 
essence_of_soy said:
There is no denying Witt's reputation to deliver when it counted.

I am reminded of a short interview with Jirena Ribbens where she said there are skaters who may be more talented than Katarina, but few who were more competitive.
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A skating federation should do a study on Witt; personality, training (sorry to make her sound like a lab rat!) to see how she made it happen. Post-Kwan, the USFSA needs someone like that competing for them.

That is not to say that Witt didn't get nervous. Before the Calgary LP, she knew the pressure she was under not only from encroaching competition, but her own government that told her she needed to win in order to punch her ticket to shows in the West / get out of the DDR. Deal worked out by Jutta Mueller. She said she couldn't feel her legs standing center ice and momentarily forgot her program!
 
tony said:
Interestingly, out of the three judges that had Slutskaya 1st, two of them had the option of slotting her in 2nd between Michelle and Irina. Michelle would've needed more help, but those judges were still giving Tara the win with Irina's 1st place ordinal - I wonder if their math was as bad as mine.
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The question is, were the judges supposed to score / place Irina, skating last of the three, based on her performance that night, or were they supposed to score / place Irina so that they could have the overall result correct? That is, if a judge genuinely felt Irina should place 3rd in the free behind Michelle and Tara, but also felt Michelle deserved the overall title, what should s/he do?! One way or another, not giving Irina a 2nd place ordinal between Michelle and Irina may not be the judges not agreeing with giving the win to Michelle - it could simply be those judges more directly judging the night regardless of overall implications.

No surprise coming from me, I felt Michelle should have won the night and overall. The short was not very well judged. IMO, Vanessa should have won the short. The more I see it, Tara's skating at the time really did not age well, and a couple minor deductions were ignored. Despite the stumble in the lutz combination, Michelle actually skated the program very well, attacked it. Tara being first and Michelle being fourth was to me more a result of how Nationals / CSF turned out and how their individual momentum went heading into the event. I might have Michelle second and Tara third in the short even with Michelle's mistake, because I feel Michelle's overall skating was THAT much better.

In the free, I would have Michelle clearly in first, but I am indifferent between Tara and Irina, they might have speed and the 3/3, but their skating simply looked incomplete, in a way.
 
^With political machinations such as these, if Kwan would've executed a 3Z instead of a double at the end, would that have pushed the judge's harder to slot Slutskaya between Kwan and Lipinski? IDK - The concept of an MK 'comeback' while skating a barnburner of a beautiful LP would have played well to the skating world, more than the 'youngest World Champ ever' being crowned in 1997.
 
If Danny Kwan had just let Frank Carroll fix her right skate in January at US Nationals, then Michelle would have skated a better program in March at Worlds. It could have been all over the papers "Lipinski Win National Championship. Kwan Replaces Misaligned Boot."
 
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essence_of_soy said:
If Lipinski hadn't bombed the short program in Edmonton, I think she had a real shot at the podium at the 1996 World Championships. Her free skate at the event was electrifying to watch in person.

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I think there is zero chance that Tara would have medalled in 1996 regardless of how she skated in the short program. She was an unknown skater from the country that already had the favorite to win that year, and there was clearly a lot of momentum for someone from Russia to make the podium. Given that Yokoya also landed 7 triples in the free and finished 10th, I think that’s about the best Tara would have done had she skated clean. Maybe at very best she would have pushed Kwiatkowski for 8th.
 
^I think clean Lipinski in 1996 would've finished around the top 10. Yokoya was 10th and SOV veteran Elena Vorobieva putting AZE on the map was 9th. Maybe that was beatable. But Kwiatkowski finally managed good performances at 1996 Worlds and some felt she should have been higher than 8th, and the same is true of Szewczenko in 6th. Kwiatkowski was considered a top American competitor for the previous 3 seasons, albeit w/ not-so-great results. She made 1995 Nationals interesting vis-a-vis Kwan and Bobek. In fact, I think she was the leader heading into the LP (?) Hierarchy!

Bonaly and Ito didn't have the greatest performances in 1996 but they had tons of rep and were the top competitors for their federations, so a very young, clean Lipinski probably wouldn't have climbed too high. The USFSA barely voted to give her a shot that year over recovering Bobek's petition to be on the team, so I don't think the USFSA was politicking too hard for her. They probably would've wanted her to just gain some experience as a 13-year old. The big story for the USFSA was Kwan's transformation that year.
 
Kwan needs to win this overall as her programs really were god-tier compared to everyone else. Looking back, I definitely took late 90s era Kwan for granted back in the day. Brilliant chorography.

I have no problem ranking Slutskaya 2nd in the LP ahead of Lipinski. One less triple than Tara, but the quality was so much better, and jump height/landing speed still actually counted for something. Slutskaya's spins were better too, along with speed and ice coverage. I thought Tara's overall skating and packaging improved so much in 97-98, and I'm still surprised the judges were so willing to put her 1st in the SP here, even with a recent GP win.

The correct podium really was Kwan-Lipinski-Gusmeroli, so something like:
4-1 Kwan 3.0
3-3 Lipinski 4.5
1-4 Gusmeroli 4.5
6-2 Slutskaya 5.0

However, I wouldn't have hated Slutskaya winning bronze. While she fell on the lutz in SP, six of her other SP elements were among the best of the night, and the program was semi-pleasant/not offensive.
 
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essence_of_soy said:
If Lipinski hadn't bombed the short program in Edmonton, I think she had a real shot at the podium at the 1996 World Championships. Her free skate at the event was electrifying to watch in person.

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I doubt the attitude that held back Kwan in 1995 would have changed much in 1996.

Also, Tara still looked like a jr. roller skater on ice that hadn't yet grown into her face. She had such a huge smile for someone who had a vestigial picking leg on her toe loop.
 
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alchemy void said:
Kwan needs to win this overall as her programs really were god-tier compared to everyone else. Looking back, I definitely took late 90s era Kwan for granted back in the day. Brilliant chorography.

I have no problem ranking Slutskaya 2nd in the LP ahead of Lipinski. One less triple than Tara, but the quality was so much better, and jump height/landing speed still actually counted for something. Slutskaya's spins were better too, along with speed and ice coverage. I thought Tara's overall skating and packaging improved so much in 97-98, and I'm still surprised the judges were so willing to put her 1st in the SP here, even with a recent GP win.

The correct podium really was Kwan-Lipinski-Gusmeroli, so something like:
4-1 Kwan 3.0
3-3 Lipinski 4.5
1-4 Gusmeroli 4.5
6-2 Slutskaya 5.0

However, I wouldn't have hated Slutskaya winning bronze. While she fell on the lutz in SP, six of her other SP elements were among the best of the night, and the program was semi-pleasant/not offensive.
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I agree that Kwan was the rightful winner in 1997 on the basis of her overall performance over both programs. The complexity of her programs that season was far above her direct competitors. For me, the only question is Gusmeroli vs. Butyrskaya in the SP - I think you could make an argument for them going 1-2 in either order. Had Butyrskaya won the SP and the LP results had gone as you stated above, Slutskaya would have won the bronze. I’m glad Gusmeroli got a medal, though, given that she didn’t get the credit she deserved when she skated very well at Euros and Worlds in 2000.
 
SpeedySucks said:
I agree that Kwan was the rightful winner in 1997 on the basis of her overall performance over both programs. The complexity of her programs that season was far above her direct competitors. For me, the only question is Gusmeroli vs. Butyrskaya in the SP - I think you could make an argument for them going 1-2 in either order. Had Butyrskaya won the SP and the LP results had gone as you stated above, Slutskaya would have won the bronze. I’m glad Gusmeroli got a medal, though, given that she didn’t get the credit she deserved when she skated very well at Euros and Worlds in 2000.
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I think those LPs by Gusmeroli in 2000 were her best ever. It is too bad in 2 Olympiads she failed to channel that energy. By 2002, her LP at SLC looked so mailed-in. It seemed like she wanted to be anywhere else but there and out of the sport.
 
SpeedySucks said:
I agree that Kwan was the rightful winner in 1997 on the basis of her overall performance over both programs. The complexity of her programs that season was far above her direct competitors. For me, the only question is Gusmeroli vs. Butyrskaya in the SP - I think you could make an argument for them going 1-2 in either order. Had Butyrskaya won the SP and the LP results had gone as you stated above, Slutskaya would have won the bronze. I’m glad Gusmeroli got a medal, though, given that she didn’t get the credit she deserved when she skated very well at Euros and Worlds in 2000.
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I loveeee Butyrskaya but I'd be half-tempted to put it as Gusmeroli Czako and then--- Kwan in the short. But I certainly think Vanessa and Krizstina were the two best, and if you haven't seen Czako I highly suggest watching her! And I also think Maria was held up in the LP seeing how 4-8 all were pretty decent.

Now, this is a re-hash of an event that gets discussed every other month, but I'm still sticking by Vanessa deserving the silver medal in 1999. :p 2000, no way. QR counted and she was way out of it because of that.
 
alchemy void said:
I thought Tara's overall skating and packaging improved so much in 97-98, and I'm still surprised the judges were so willing to put her 1st in the SP here, even with a recent GP win.
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It's interesting - you're the second person to say that, but I have to partially disagree. I agree that Tara's basic skating improved in 97-98, but I felt like the packaging was a step backwards. The 97-98 LP was so twee (and so was the Anastasia soundtrack if I'm being honest, even if I am embarrassed to say how much I love "Once Upon a December"). And I thought her Little Women SP in 1997 was really well constructed and fit to the music. I felt like it was a really inspired musical selection for her at that point in her career.
 
Erin said:
The 97-98 LP was so twee (and so was the Anastasia soundtrack if I'm being honest, even if I am embarrassed to say how much I love "Once Upon a December").
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...but I like twee. :shuffle:

Never ever be embarrassed to share love for Once Upon a December! :lol: The only question for me is if I like Lipinski or Galustyan's version better.
 
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alchemy void said:
...but I like twee. :shuffle:

Never, ever be embarrassed to share love for Once Upon a December! :lol: The only question for me is if I like Lipinski or Galustyan's version better.
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Galustyan of course, but then again, I'm biased because I saw it live. I think that performance (2016 Euros) has the greatest disparity between post-skate celebration and K&C score reaction of anything in Galustyan's career. I know there's a lot of competition, but show me a better example, anyone.

p.s. I'm pretty sure Johnny Weir owns every fashion and makeup item featured in your current avatar.
 
olympic said:
^Funny how when one revisits competitions from years or even decades prior, one reassesses those skaters that one didn't like / felt meh about before. That happened to me with Witt for example.
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Me too. I have recently become rather obsessed.
 
I spent my Saturday night watching the Eurosport coverage of the short program. The playlist with nearly every skater in the short and long is here if anyone else wants to do so: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUD7XGoCpbTX9RWCQVkZ42fFY0rzSawPK

One thing that I hadn’t ever completely realized was that Czako was probably screwed by the start order. It appears she skated 12th, while in a weird coincidence, the rest of the top 6 all skated back to back in an unseeded draw:
23 Gusmeroli
24 Lipinski
Warm-up
25 Butyrskaya
26 Kwan
27 Slutskaya

I’m still sticking with my original opinion of Czako first, Gusmeroli second in the short. But I think I would have Kwan ahead of Butyrskaya and possibly Lipinski. Even as much of a Kwan fan as I am, it was still shocking to see the contrast in smoothness of Kwan’s skating immediately after Butyrskaya. I’m very disappointed with the judges who gave her 5.7s for presentation.

I watched this competition many, many times back in the late 90s/early 2000s, and I was always OK with Kwan finishing second overall because of the error in the short program, but I am changing my mind and am going to retroactively wuzrob her!
 
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It can't have helped Kwan's reputation losing both US Nationals, followed by the Grand Prix Final, to Lipinski. Beating the defending world champ twice in less than a month, Tara certainly had a great deal of political pull heading into Lausanne, that's for sure.
 
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I think Lipinski's 1996-97 LP was better than her Olympic one, but they're honestly like the same program. I can't really differentiate it apart from the costume and the music. Both had the same uplifting quality. I much prefer the music of Little Women to that of Anastasia, but I think Anastasia was better choreographed and had more excitement. Either way, her programs really worked for her as it showed off how much more polished she got compared to her junior roller skater on ice days where she was seriously clunky as hell. She grew so much in terms of smoothness, basic skating, finishing her lines, adding moves to show she had some stretch and polish, and still looking like herself and showing off that sort of freedom of flying in her skating.

I mean Slutskaya really had everything over Tara on paper, but when you actually watch the routines, you just had to give it to Tara. Tara's skating by 1997 was more than the sum of its parts while Slutskaya had strong parts but when you put it altogether was just left in a bad ponderous package that was sloppy sloppy sloppy and messy as hell. It's like when one shops for a new computer and compare PCs and Macs. PCs often have much more power and better specs and better storage and you can do things to it for much cheaper than you can do with Macs, but for some reason, despite every part being "better" technically, the Mac just works so much better and is smoother and works exactly the way most users outside computer folks need a computer to work. Of course, Tara's career had more of a lifespan of a PC than Slutskaya's who had more of a Mac lifespan as her career went on for much longer.

One thing that helped create the Tara v. Michelle wars was that their skating was so different and for many who were happy to have an alternative to Kwan, one thing they said was that Kwan seemed so rehearsed and tight compared to free flowing Tara who skated as if she was having a blast. It didn't help that Salome and Taj Mahal were two heavily-costumed programs and pretty dramatic and heavy. I think that's one reason I love her Winter exhibition from 1997 Worlds so much. Kwan choreographed it herself and was skating as herself and it showed off all of her best strengths while giving off that freedom of flying quality people love to see in skating.

I get why Lori decided to go with Lyra the following year to allow Kwan a chance to show herself off, which people would fall in love with by 2002, but I think her Rach SP was the best "compromise" of dramatic but moving away from the heavy costume programs that sort of hid Kwan as a person.
 
VGThuy said:
I think Lipinski's 1996-97 LP was better than her Olympic one, but they're honestly like the same program. I can't really differentiate it apart from the costume and the music. Both had the same uplifting quality. I much prefer the music of Little Women to that of Anastasia, but I think Anastasia was better choreographed and had more excitement. Either way, her programs really worked for her as it showed off how much more polished she got compared to her junior roller skater on ice days where she was seriously clunky as hell. She grew so much in terms of smoothness, basic skating, finishing her lines, adding moves to show she had some stretch and polish, and still looking like herself and showing off that sort of freedom of flying in her skating.

One thing that helped create the Tara v. Michelle wars was that their skating was so different and for many who were happy to have an alternative to Kwan, one thing they said was that Kwan seemed so rehearsed and tight compared to free flowing Tara who skated as if she was having a blast. It didn't help that Salome and Taj Mahal were two heavily-costumed programs and pretty dramatic and heavy. I think that's one reason I love her Winter exhibition from 1997 Worlds so much. Kwan choreographed it herself and was skating as herself and it showed off all of her best strengths while giving off that freedom of flying quality people love to see in skating.

I get why Lori decided to go with Lyra the following year to allow Kwan a chance to show herself off, which people would fall in love with by 2002, but I think her Rach SP was the best "compromise" of dramatic but moving away from the heavy costume programs that sort of hid Kwan as a person.
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Interesting - Tara v. Michelle reminds me a lot of Nathan v. Yuzuru
 
I really have to give Sandra Bezic credit for Tara's programs. She really worked to fill up her programs to give off the impression that Tara was a polished skater but one that fit Tara's style and looked very natural on Tara (nothing too forced). There were so many little moves in-and-out of elements and things she choreographed to fill up the space and got Tara to show off some mature shapes and allowed to show off good posture and even stretch out her line with good timing (not too rushed). She also knew how to pace a program and created an Olympic-style music edit for all of Lipinski's programs she made for her. I think Bezic's programs plus Callaghan's coaching really did everything to make Tara who had that natural jumping talent, personality, and killer instinct to be a champion ready to be rewarded by 1998. She really did looked as polished as a final product by then. Many skaters years above her look half-baked in comparison and a lot of it is their choreography not being nearly as professional as Bezic's.
 
VGThuy said:
I mean Slutskaya really had everything over Tara on paper, but when you actually watch the routines, you just had to give it to Tara. Tara's skating by 1997 was more than the sum of its parts while Slutskaya had strong parts but when you put it altogether was just left in a bad ponderous package that was sloppy sloppy sloppy and messy as hell. It's like when one shops for a new computer and compare PCs and Macs. PCs often have much more power and better specs and better storage and you can do things to it for much cheaper than you can do with Macs, but for some reason, despite every part being "better" technically, the Mac just works so much better and is smoother and works exactly the way most users outside computer folks need a computer to work.
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Love this analogy. And accurate, considering I preferred Slutskaya to Lipinski in the LP here, and will use PCs over Macs until the day I die. :lol:
 
Erin said:
And I thought her Little Women SP in 1997 was really well constructed and fit to the music. I felt like it was a really inspired musical selection for her at that point in her career.
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Her team did a great job with the Little Women concept, music, costume, and choreography. :cheer: I showed mini-grace the movie recently, and I was instantly reminded of Tara's SP when the music played. I mentioned that and was curtly told, "Not everything is about skating, Mom."
 
VGThuy said:
I really have to give Sandra Bezic credit for Tara's programs. She really worked to fill up her programs to give off the impression that Tara was a polished skater but one that fit Tara's style and looked very natural on Tara (nothing too forced).
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I agree, and it's even more amazing that (according to Christine Brennan's books) Tara's musical tastes were very limited at the time, and she basically said "no" to anything that wasn't Disney soundtrack music. Bezic had to do a lot of work to find something that Tara wanted to skate to and that she felt she could choreograph to. Also, when Bezic usually did a program, she would work with the skater as they learned it, and then would be invited back later on to see how it had developed or to help the skater polish it. Once Tara's programs were finished, Team Tara never brought Bezic back to look at the programs again.
 
I think that may have had something to do with scheduling though, because I recall an article that talked about Bezic taking advantage of being in Nagano for broadcasting to work with Tara on refining the choreography.
 
I'm pretty sure Brennan quoted Bezic as saying she and Tara said "hi" and "good luck" in the halls, but didn't have any contact beyond that. And Bezic was puzzled because this was so different from the follow-up work she usually did with her programs.
 
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