Kostornaia out of Russian Nationals

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clairecloutier

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The level of whataboutism and excuse-making in this thread is epic. Yeah, let’s just carry on with this lovely situation in which a two-time World champion now, at age 22, cannot turn her back in one direction, and in which the 2019 World gold and silver medalists get disappeared from competition mere months later, at ages 17 and 19. This, and 16- or 17-year-olds being washed up is all just great, a normal part of figure skating, and something we should all just accept.

I appreciated @kwanatic’s take on the situation: https://twitter.com/NakedIceBlog/status/1471482349691060230
 

Bigbird

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Look. Kostornaia didn't know how good she had it with Plushy and Shae Lyn and the new up and comers. But she just couldn't get out of her own head. God bless her if she can make it even 1 more year with Eteri and Dani G. Russian figure skating politricks is some powerful voodoo I tell ya.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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The level of whataboutism and excuse-making in this thread is epic. Yeah, let’s just carry on with this lovely situation in which a two-time World champion now, at age 22, cannot turn her back in one direction, and in which the 2019 World gold and silver medalists get disappeared from competition mere months later, at ages 17 and 19. This, and 16- or 17-year-olds being washed up is all just great, a normal part of figure skating, and something we should all just accept.

I appreciated @kwanatic’s take on the situation: https://twitter.com/NakedIceBlog/status/1471482349691060230
I really appreciated that video. And she makes it clear in it that it is not just about Tutberidze, its a problem for the sport.

Also she expresses the concern for the skaters, the love for the skaters, well I agree with that.

What I don't get is the people who seem to be fans of the coaches, and are more interested in defending the coaches than they are concerned for the skaters.

Specific to Kostornaia, I'm never that interested in skaters before they mature, but watching her this year, I am so impressed with the maturity of presentation she is developing. I hope there is a place for her to skate for as many more years as it works for her because that is what skating needs, beauty as well as athleticism.
 

becca

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Because the same coaching team has at least four Olympic contenders with significant injuries this season, including at least two who didn’t even make it to Russian nationals. Not to mention four world medalists in less than a decade who retired by age 20. The more the same thing happens over and over again, the less likely that it’s just a fluke.
But how many other coaches have skaters at that level?

Given the fact her girls are doing quads!!! I think it’s safe to say they are going to have more injuries.

Furthemore a lot of the Russian women are retiring by 20 nowadays. Adelina did. Some of this is just do to the competition in Russia. Med cannot compete with quads.

I actually think some of this group is likely to Stay.

I don’t know if there is some Neferious plan on Eteri’s end for all of her girls to have bad technique. She is still a newer coach on the world stage.

I think it must be said in fairness to her that she seems to be aware of those weakness and her students have better and better technique.

That’s one aspect where I give her credit for.

She keeps on improving as a coach her students get better and replace the newer ones. I think for example Trusova is likely to be around for quite awhile
 
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becca

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Do not get me wrong you look at Mishins work with Liza and how he gave very good technique that sustained her all these years and that is a good solid example for any coach.

But Mishin has been a coach for decades on world stage for decades and developed practices for that.

I don’t know what Eteri is like as a person but one of the reasons I think she is going to continue her dominance as a coach is she does seem at least in terms of the technical to really work on improving her own methods as seen by how much better her students get. Kamilla and yes Kostornaia are everything I want to see in a skater.

If I see a coach actively working to improve their skaters technique and foundation I am far less willing to criticize them in at least that area.

I think if skaters jump quads and triple axels. Injuries will happen
 
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LeafOnTheWind

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I think it must be said in fairness to her that she seems to be aware of those weakness and her students have better and better technique.

That’s one aspect where I give her credit for.

She keeps on improving as a coach her students get better and replace the newer ones. I think for example Trusova is likely to be around for quite awhile
It is good that she is improving as a coach but why was she the head coach of so many and so politically powerful in the Russian federation before she was already a better coach? Do we need to have a discussion about coaching coaches?

When are they good enough to be in charge? What training do they need to have before they are considered elite level coaches?
 

becca

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It is good that she is improving as a coach but why was she the head coach of so many and so politically powerful in the Russian federation before she was already a better coach? Do we need to have a discussion about coaching coaches?

When are they good enough to be in charge? What training do they need to have before they are considered elite level coaches?
I think like anything some things are learned only by doing?

Med has how many world titles and a silver medal at the Olympics. Alina is a world champ and OGM I would be hard pressed to say Eteri failed them. They are both enjoying numerous opportunities
 
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thvu

Usova's Apprentice
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For me, the one thing I keep thinking in this whole debate is "where is the line?" Skaters were still developing chronic injuries when triples were the norm to win. Kwan talked about how it was easier for her to skate than to walk, and that she had to sit in a bath for hours because of her hip pain. Lipinski got hip replacement surgery. I've known people who had to stop skating because of injuries sustained doing doubles.

There's the video of Mary Pierce tearing her ACL which caused her retirement from tennis. There are stories of gymnasts getting paralyzed from training. I never played sports at the pro-level and I deal with sciatica. There are also moments where I literally cannot get up from a chair because I have searing hip pain and I have to wait for it to pass.

Any type of physical activity required for elite sports is going to create this problem of injuries, injuries cutting careers short, causing early retirements. Again, what is the line? How universal is this line? And then, can you really stop a determined athlete from choosing to chase glory at the cost of their health?

Ultimately, this is societal and cultural, not just an issue in figure skating. In that respect, we are all to blame. I happily purchase tickets to watch athletes perform insane technical elements like quads. Some of them are minors. Is the entire audience to blame? Are we all part of the problem? I think about how celebrated Tursynbaeva's Quad Salchow was by her competitors. Are they also to blame for her retirement and chronic injuries?

How much of us love Pairs Skating? Is it really safe for someone being thrown into the air and expected to land on a knife's edge? Or to expect someone to keep balance on blades while lifting another in the air? How safe is a triple twist really when there are blades now spinning vertically in the air, and expecting someone else to not fall and catch them in order to keep everyone safe?

Don't we love the risk and danger, truly? This isn't where I thought my post was going to go, but clearly, I am attracted to the risk of the sport. I marvel at a beautifully landed quad. How many times have I sat in awe watching Hanyu or Chen land quad after quad? I feel like in this debate, so many are trying to keep the reward without any of the risk. Again, where is the line, and how do we quantify it?
 

BlueRidge

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Starting by banning quads works for me.

I know then we ban triples because people get injured, doubles because they get injured, skating because people get injured.

It really is possible to consider changes that don't mean no skating at all and I think this dodge of "well people get injured in any case" is beneath people. Skating could be safer. I don't know where you draw the line and its up to the officials and participants in the sport to decide but it can be done.

And if you don't think it would be fun without quads, well people used to think bear-baiting was fun too.
 

love_skate2011

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Ban quads for men, see how that turns out.

You people already want the minum age to be 20 years old as the consented adult
and you want quads banned too, :rolleyes: do that for the men too at least right

then women can compete in double jumps :rolleyes:
 

Wyliefan

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It's fair to ask these questions. But I would suggest maybe the best question to ask is "How can we make sure that skaters get taught the best possible techniques and practices so that they stay as safe and healthy as they can while practicing this sport and achieve as much longevity as they would like to?"
 

tony

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For me, the one thing I keep thinking in this whole debate is "where is the line?" Skaters were still developing chronic injuries when triples were the norm to win. Kwan talked about how it was easier for her to skate than to walk, and that she had to sit in a bath for hours because of her hip pain. Lipinski got hip replacement surgery. I've known people who had to stop skating because of injuries sustained doing doubles.
The argument you're going to get here in return is that it's all coming at a higher ratio from one camp. But people refuse to understand that Tutberidze skaters take up the majority of whatever 'top' or 'seasons best' list that you want to look at. If we applied the same ratio of injured skaters in a season across that same 'top' list across the world throughout many of the last 25 or so years, we'd probably find the same amount of (serious) injuries from top-level skaters. And, as you mentioned, this was when skaters were doing much lesser content.

I'm no huge 'fan' of Tutberidze as a coach, but I'm also not going to be ridiculous and equate a fluke fall to eating disorders or anything else that we don't know about but some are so eager to assume. Nathan Chen injured himself on a triple toe in an exhibition 2016 that took him right out of the end of the season, missing Worlds, because of a serious hip injury. We saw what happened to Mae Meite at Worlds. These things do happen, and sometimes in front of thousands of people.

You have a Canadian skating club that had a top female skater have an eating disorder and several injuries (in which she came back to the same club), two top male skaters with on-and-off injuries, and I don't see anyone ever questioning any of that even though those are 3 of the top skaters in the camp. People might be rolling their eyes at Hanyu for his quest to land the quad Axel, but it's his decision.
Any type of physical activity required for elite sports is going to create this problem of injuries, injuries cutting careers short, causing early retirements. Again, what is the line? How universal is this line? And then, can you really stop a determined athlete from choosing to chase glory at the cost of their health?
You can't stop someone from being motivated or for pushing harder. And this board, always trying to be constantly socially aware, shouldn't need told that point IMO. Even if you've never stepped foot in a gym, never ran a mile, never did any strenuous physical activity, I'm sure you've worked very, very hard for something that may have resulted in burnout and/or taking a spot over someone else who tried just as hard. Unless people here really want to argue that the physical side is weighted more heavily than the mental side. Either way, we've all been in a position where we had to stand out or 'do better' to get to where we wanted to be.
Ultimately, this is societal and cultural, not just an issue in figure skating. In that respect, we are all to blame. I happily purchase tickets to watch athletes perform insane technical elements like quads. Some of them are minors. Is the entire audience to blame? Are we all part of the problem? I think about how celebrated Tursynbaeva's Quad Salchow was by her competitors. Are they also to blame for her retirement and chronic injuries?
People were just recently excited by Sui/Han re-adding the quad twist to their programs. Sui doing a 3T+3T in practice gets people excited. There may very well be people who truly want quads, triple-triples, and even triples gone. But like you said, plenty of people have gotten injured attempting doubles. Plenty of people have gotten seriously injured and/or have had long-term exercise-related issues from so many other things.

Tennis requires players to run back and forth for at least an hour, maybe even 3 or 4 hours per match, often sliding, twisting awkwardly, getting stuck when trying to twist, etc. Baseball starting pitchers throw 100 pitches per game, not even including practice days. Catchers have to be in a constant squat position and they all end up with bad knees. Swimmers get something called swimmers shoulder. These are not contact sports. They are not even extreme sports. It's just what comes with exercise in general. And I don't think athletes need told the risk of all of it.

But we can keep on with people, on a board of hardcore figure skating fans, really trying to act like they want all types of exercise to go away because it's not safe.
 

BlueRidge

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It's fair to ask these questions. But I would suggest maybe the best question to ask is "How can we make sure that skaters get taught the best possible techniques and practices so that they stay as safe and healthy as they can while practicing this sport and achieve as much longevity as they would like to?"
And that is a question about coaching, which recognizes the key position of coaches and also the key responsibility. And I think that is right. People keep trying to turn the discussion away from that special position of responsibility of coaches and those involved in training with them. I don't understand why.
 

layman

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Do not get me wrong you look at Mishins work with Liza and how he gave very good technique that sustained her all these years and that is a good solid example for any coach.

But Mishin has been a coach for decades on world stage for decades and developed practices for that.

I don’t know what Eteri is like as a person but one of the reasons I think she is going to continue her dominance as a coach is she does seem at least in terms of the technical to really work on improving her own methods as seen by how much better her students get. Kamilla and yes Kostornaia are everything I want to see in a skater.

If I see a coach actively working to improve their skaters technique and foundation I am far less willing to criticize them in at least that area.

I think if skaters jump quads and triple axels. Injuries will happen
Trusova, Kostornaia and Valieva came to her with good technique (which they got from their formative coaches). It's the skaters that she's had for longer that have bad technique (pre-rotating, jumping with their upper body/back-spin technique etc.).

Regardless of the technique though, we see that sooner or later, Eteri's skaters suffer a career ending injury and/or they grow and then they are done. There is an "Eteri Expiration Date" (of one or two seasons before the bodies break down). Eteri does not know how to coach post-pubescent bodies.

The same thing happens to her boys, who burn out faster than her girls (and we never hear about them).
 

tony

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It's fair to ask these questions. But I would suggest maybe the best question to ask is "How can we make sure that skaters get taught the best possible techniques and practices so that they stay as safe and healthy as they can while practicing this sport and achieve as much longevity as they would like to?"
But a coach can only do so much about technique, if the technique you're referring to here is about actual element technique. By 1990 or so, we were seeing many, many skaters who had really different techniques to jumps. Most female skaters way into 2010s couldn't do either the Lutz or the flip on the correct edge. We also have skaters who are world medalists that have habitually severely prerotated and underrotated jumps their entire skating careers and should never have had their jumps called clean. It's not something that a coach can just 'turn off' when they want to, even with really hard work. It has to come from the skater as well. And even with a lot of hard work, a pressure situation may revert them back to the old practices anyways.

So, is the suggestion that all skaters who can't learn the proper technique to just be banned from practicing? Not a facetious question, but the skaters aren't robots. If they were all capable of glorious jump technique, we would see it. And FWIW, I think Kostornaia has a really wonderful overall technique.
 

BlueRidge

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I definitely made that suggestion.
You mentioned the "female athlete triad." I didn't know what that was so I looked it up. I think that's really important. When I have concerns about quads for female skaters, its not just the falling or other direct injuries but the advantage to them of keeping a super low body weight in order to rotate.

I do not know if this is necessarily an outcome of quads but the bone density problem is one skating should be monitoring for skaters, not just passing off as a trade-off for being an elite competitor as it seems some fans would say.
 

soogar

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Their argument is that (young) Eteri skaters get more injured than others disproportionately and people putting forward the argument are not even interested in actual reasons behind the injuries that are based on the available information …as it always automatically has to with overuse / Eteri methods … even after Kostornaia said it was a freak accident ( you know they just told her to shut up). She is the 3rd skater out of the Eteri group with an injury , but that group is quite high profile… and then we have Hanyu, Kihira, Tennell all out with injuries
The situation with Alyona was that she was backing off the triple axel and then one of the conditions that was publicly stated by Team Tutberidze for her return was that she needed to start doing the triple axel again. Skaters get injured, but in this situation, you have team publicly pushing a skater to achieve more content and shaming her in the press. For the other skaters, you don't see their team publicly saying they aren't doing enough. So to see her injured on an element that she had stopped doing, presumably because it didn't feel good for her body, combined with her coach's public commentary on her effort, is what is triggering the response.

Brady has had a serious back injury and she's injured now. When she moved to Tom Z, despite Tom being a bit of a braggart, he didn't say that she wasn't making effort or was lazy or even discuss her training. This case you have a very competitive environment that is fueled by pitting skaters against one another to push performance. We've seen it with the Karolyis and how everyone under them was so afraid to even talk about injuries or being abused by a doctor. It's the same environment here.

And just because she has done a triple axel many times when she was smaller, doesn't mean it is a low risk element for her. She has not been putting it in her programs it's because she doesn't feel comfortable with the element.
 

muffinplus

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The situation with Alyona was that she was backing off the triple axel and then one of the conditions that was publicly stated by Team Tutberidze for her return was that she needed to start doing the triple axel again. Skaters get injured, but in this situation, you have team publicly pushing a skater to achieve more content and shaming her in the press. For the other skaters, you don't see their team publicly saying they aren't doing enough. So to see her injured on an element that she had stopped doing, presumably because it didn't feel good for her body, combined with her coach's public commentary on her effort, is what is triggering the response.

Brady has had a serious back injury and she's injured now. When she moved to Tom Z, despite Tom being a bit of a braggart, he didn't say that she wasn't making effort or was lazy or even discuss her training. This case you have a very competitive environment that is fueled by pitting skaters against one another to push performance. We've seen it with the Karolyis and how everyone under them was so afraid to even talk about injuries or being abused by a doctor. It's the same environment here.

And just because she has done a triple axel many times when she was smaller, doesn't mean it is a low risk element for her. She has not been putting it in her programs it's because she doesn't feel comfortable with the element.
Sorry but she already achieved the 3 axel ( at test skates and SC even if it was under) so this has nothing to do with “pushing it for Eteri“ because she supposedly was not going to keep her. she has already kept her.. ( she already changed her programs and costumes… you seriously think they are kicking her out?) The fact is she needs to jump it not because Eteri will kick her out but to have any chance to go to the Olympics in the competitive environment that is Russia so that makes more sense as a reason… she very well knows it.

btw she didn’t put it in her short program at IDF because Eteri told her to go for the double ( this was in her interview.. she did want to go for the triple but was told not to risk it)
 
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Trillian

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You mentioned the "female athlete triad." I didn't know what that was so I looked it up. I think that's really important. When I have concerns about quads for female skaters, its not just the falling or other direct injuries but the advantage to them of keeping a super low body weight in order to rotate.

I do not know if this is necessarily an outcome of quads but the bone density problem is one skating should be monitoring for skaters, not just passing off as a trade-off for being an elite competitor as it seems some fans would say.

This is why I’ve circled back to eating disorders and overtraining a few times. IMO focusing on those issues would be much more beneficial to the athletes than limiting specific jumps. As others have mentioned, plenty of skaters who never attempt quads still end up with serious injuries. Any coach taking a “thin at any cost” approach is going to end up with seriously injured (or ill) athletes. If skaters can maintain a healthy diet and land quads, great. If they can’t be competitive without starving themselves, they shouldn’t be competitive. As long as people in the sport are willing to say “too bad, they have to starve to win,” these issues aren’t going away. This is a way more important discussion than which specific jumps are leading to injury.

And even though the biological impact isn’t usually exactly the same, disordered eating absolutely has an impact on men in the sport as well.
 

overedge

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This whole discussion stems from hatred for a successful coach.

No, it does not. If all you see in this discussion is "I hate this coach because her skaters are doing better than my favorite skaters" then you're missing the point entirely.

It's perfectly legitimate to question a coach's "success" when that success comes at the expense of potentially significant long-term physical or mental damage to their athletes.
 

screech

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It's fair to ask these questions. But I would suggest maybe the best question to ask is "How can we make sure that skaters get taught the best possible techniques and practices so that they stay as safe and healthy as they can while practicing this sport and achieve as much longevity as they would like to?"

And that is a question about coaching, which recognizes the key position of coaches and also the key responsibility. And I think that is right. People keep trying to turn the discussion away from that special position of responsibility of coaches and those involved in training with them. I don't understand why.
IMO this comes down to judging. Coaches and skaters aren't going to care about having the correct technique if the judges are rewarding those with wrong edges, flat-foot entries on toe jumps, and 1/2 to 3/4 turn pre-rotation. Uno's 4f for example, is basically an overrotated triple loop. Same with both of Scherbakova's quads. But why learn how to do an actual quad if you get +4s for a 'quad' that's actually little more than a triple? Who cares if it's unnaturally twisting your ankle and will likely lead to serious injuries at some point in your life, if it's easier for you to do now?

The ISU and its judges need to have a serious look at this issue.
 

becca

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21,359
The situation with Alyona was that she was backing off the triple axel and then one of the conditions that was publicly stated by Team Tutberidze for her return was that she needed to start doing the triple axel again. Skaters get injured, but in this situation, you have team publicly pushing a skater to achieve more content and shaming her in the press. For the other skaters, you don't see their team publicly saying they aren't doing enough. So to see her injured on an element that she had stopped doing, presumably because it didn't feel good for her body, combined with her coach's public commentary on her effort, is what is triggering the response.

Brady has had a serious back injury and she's injured now. When she moved to Tom Z, despite Tom being a bit of a braggart, he didn't say that she wasn't making effort or was lazy or even discuss her training. This case you have a very competitive environment that is fueled by pitting skaters against one another to push performance. We've seen it with the Karolyis and how everyone under them was so afraid to even talk about injuries or being abused by a doctor. It's the same environment here.

And just because she has done a triple axel many times when she was smaller, doesn't mean it is a low risk element for her. She has not been putting it in her programs it's because she doesn't feel comfortable with the element.
we don’t know what the practices are like. I don’t like folks badmouthing students.

However Given the depth of Russian ladies if she was going to make the Olympic team she needed the triple axel. Period.

It’s not mean at all for Team Eteri to say this it’s one of the things a coach is paid to do.

I have no doubt Eteri is a tough coach and yes that kind of environment is hard but Karoyli that is far more next level

Lots of coaching situations have high level training groups see Pairs and Dance. These are highly competitive athletes.

This being said if I were Russian parent I would probably want coach with less students
 

Bigbird

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I do customarily refrain from using the Lord's name in vain,today I am in a rather foul mood after a traumatic morning at the spa.

The good news is,my dear,your posts are as pompous and trite as ever—very much in character for you.

-BB
We have reached this point in only 6 pages. Maybe we need to do like Ross and Rachel and take a break?
 
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