Kostornaia out of Russian Nationals

[alchemy void]

Really? By whom?

The judges.

 

[Trillian]

Then kids shouldn't be actors, they shouldn't excel at music or musical performance, they shouldn't have hobbies of any kind that put them in any kind of pressure or chance to set them apart as 'better' because the mental game can be and has shown to be just as devastating (if not more) as having a career-ending injury.

And once again, what is raising the age going to do? Are you going to police all of the rinks and watch what they are attempting in practice? Or for any sport really? You think 17 and 18 year olds are going to show up to compete in a sport having never learned anything prior to that? Come on.

Yes, we literally need to address all of those things as a society. Kids shouldn’t be TV or movie stars. Kids shouldn’t be under so much pressure to “excel” (which is not the same thing as doing a job professionally, for money) that it adversely affects their mental health. No one is advocating that a 17-year-old show up at their first Worlds without having ever worn skates before. Kids can have robust opportunities to train and compete at the lower levels of sports without being on television.

And no one needs to spend time at any rink (or any athletic training facility) (eta: on a daily basis, at least) to monitor for potentially unhealthy situations. If there’s a pattern of injured children coming out of one facility, any governing bodies responsible for the sport in that facility should be trying to determine why and what can be done to prevent it. That doesn’t strike me as something that should be controversial.

 

[karmena]

... rather no one wants to see a repetition of gymnast's Elena Mukhina fate in the figure skating; so it is not so much about the age or anything else....and collisions of opinions comes from the the inability to express them

 

[muffinplus]

Someone who was seeing herself out has gotten lost.

If I am quoted I usually respond.. I didn’t carry on the discussion… But thanks for the smartass comment.

 

[bladesofgorey]

Injuries and having long-lasting problems after sport is far from exclusive in figure skating and I read some of these 'I'm so concerned' posts as people only looking inside the bubble of skating and acting like this doesn't happen from just about every other physical higher-intensity activity there is. People want the age limit raised as if that's going to fix problems. Long before triple Axels and quads were a thing, injuries still played a part of the sport. We all know the physics behind the force being put on the body to even do double or easier triples jumps. So raise the age, remove quads and triple Axels from being allowed in junior, and are we also going to police every ice rink around the world to make sure these ambitious young skaters aren't practicing the jumps in their free time? It's not going to happen. They are still going to push themselves to get to the next level.

Kids can be stars in soccer, baseball, basketball, football, hockey, skateboarding, gymnastics, whatever. The risk for injury is going to be there no matter the content level. You can break a bone or pull a muscle or whatever simply running down the street or lifting some amount of weight that you've lifted successfully many times before.

And in this imaginary world that quads and 3A practices go away and injuries still continue to happen, are we going to have a brigade insisting that 3T and 3S also need to go away because it's just ruining athletes' bodies too much? I don't know what sport some of you want, but based on the bitching of the technical level of events like 2010 Worlds, I would assume going in the opposite direction isn't really what you want to happen.

Then kids shouldn't be actors, they shouldn't excel at music or musical performance, they shouldn't have hobbies of any kind that put them in any kind of pressure or chance to set them apart as 'better' because the mental game can be and has shown to be just as devastating (if not more) as having a career-ending injury.

And once again, what is raising the age going to do? Are you going to police all of the rinks and watch what they are attempting in practice? Or for any sport really? You think 17 and 18 year olds are going to show up to compete in a sport having never learned anything prior to that? Come on.

This is not about kids pushing themselves. This is about adults imposing abusive regimens on children - physically abusive in some cases perhaps but definitely mentally and psychologically abusive. Are you really ok with enforced eating disorders if that's what it takes to win?

 

[screech]

Raising the age to compete isn't going to stop skaters from trying to push themselves. If a skater can land their doubles, they'll move on to triples. If they can land their triples, they'll move on to quads. We've seen clips of Hanyu, Dmitriev, Messing trying quad axels. Skaters are always going to try new things and push themselves, whether they need them nor not, or whether they compete with them or not.
I'm actually surprised we haven't been seeing skaters trying quad/quad or triple/quad combinations.

 

[tony]

Again, I think you're taking an issue with how simplistic people are criticizing one camp but your post is offering an equally simplistic alternative of just accepting major injuries as a fact of life and leaving things the way they are. I think there are many alternatives in-between and it'll require research and data collecting. I think the onus is always on the official sports institution to discover new ways to make their sports safer for its participants. Many are already doing it because they are afraid of liability issues like the NFL and their concussion issues, etc.

I'm looking in the scope of Kostornaia telling all of us she fell on a triple Axel and she's out of Nationals, and then I'm looking at all the suggestive comments in this thread that always seem to pop up. I'm not oversimplifying it, I'm looking at what happened to her and questioning what was so unique about this situation, regardless of the camp she comes from. This is a jump we've all seen her do many, many times. Since she didn't state otherwise, she could've been 100% healthy and more ready than ever until this incident. From that scope, I don't know how it is different from any other injury that we've seen in all the years of skating or any sport and no one has really argued otherwise. If people want to argue that all sports should be shut down for kids/teens, then I just wonder how they are going to be ready to compete once they turn 18. And Kostornaia is 18..

I'm also still waiting for people to say what their limit is as far as 'trying new things'. Regardless of what feelings people have for Tutberidze's camp, people who are trying to excel (kids included) are always going to try to push to get to the next thing. Did a double Axel? Okay, now time to work on triples. Did a Lutz? Maybe let's work on a triple Axel. A lot of kids push to have the top GPA to get into a prestigious University, or maybe they push to have the most activities on their application, or the highest test scores, or whatever. We don't suddenly get competitive or suddenly have the urge to push ourselves the minute we turn 18. And none of FSU had parents or are current parents that pushed their children to excel in school, in tests, in any hobby that doesn't happen to be sport? How is the physical aspect different from the mental aspect?

This is not about kids pushing themselves. This is about adults imposing abusive regimens on children - physically abusive in some cases perhaps but definitely mentally and psychologically abusive. Are you really ok with enforced eating disorders if that's what it takes to win?

See above. I'm talking about the scope of Kostornaia doing a jump she's done many many times before and falling awkwardly and getting an injury. Then we have posters on this board equating that to how 'it always happens' in Tutberidze's camp yet literally any athlete could have done this. Don't suggest what I'm okay with when I've kept the scope of this argument to Kostornaia's situation - this is a thread about such.

 

[Wyliefan]

Raising the age to compete isn't going to stop skaters from trying to push themselves. If a skater can land their doubles, they'll move on to triples. If they can land their triples, they'll move on to quads. We've seen clips of Hanyu, Dmitriev, Messing trying quad axels. Skaters are always going to try new things and push themselves, whether they need them nor not, or whether they compete with them or not.
I'm actually surprised we haven't been seeing skaters trying quad/quad or triple/quad combinations.

We have, though not in competition. Ilia Malinin has posted a few on Instagram.

 

[VGThuy]

Actually, there's a huge push in parenting about pushing mental and emotional limits of a student who excels in school. And regarding Kostornaia, we actually aren't working with all facts, just ones she's reporting. I think it's fair to treat it as testimony but one that not everyone has to completely buy if they have doubts because there are so many questions one can ask but obviously won't get the answer to. If she were on the stand, you'd bet there would be tons of follow up questions about her rate of success with the triple axel, her health that day, pressures from her coaches to land them, pressures she put on herself, instructions, etc.

 

[Rukia]

Oh no.
Dave Lease warming up his terrible Russian accent as we speak.
Actual Russians all going, We DO NOT sound like that!!

Truly the real injustice in this thread. No Russians deserve that.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I'm looking in the scope of Kostornaia telling all of us she fell on a triple Axel and she's out of Nationals, and then I'm looking at all the suggestive comments in this thread that always seem to pop up. I'm not oversimplifying it, I....

Except you are.

Why did she fall? There is always the risk that an accident just happened. It could also be a whole host of nutrition, compensating for existing injury, overtraining issues, etc. It still comes back to having to evaluate a camp in relation to all of them to say whether there is a trend or not. People are seeing a trend same as what they see with Tom Z. That's why the comments are coming up.

If the ISU isn't very clear about safety and monitoring abusive coaching practices overall, people are going to fill in the blanks for them. And there just isn't a whole lot of confidence in sports authorities caring about mental and physical well-being of any athletes in any sport right now.

 

[Trillian]

Raising the age to compete isn't going to stop skaters from trying to push themselves. If a skater can land their doubles, they'll move on to triples. If they can land their triples, they'll move on to quads.

As long as those are the things the scoring system rewards the most, I agree. If other things were worth more points, the logical progression of moving from one skill to the next might look very different. Any ice dancer could tell you that.

I’m not advocating getting rid of the jumps, though I wouldn’t mind seeing them carry less weight. (I’m more impressed with a Jason Brown step sequence than any quad I’ve ever seen.) But we don’t have the data to know where the line really is in terms of jumps being a problem. We do know that eating disorders and overtraining cause injuries for athletes in all kinds of situations, and I’m pretty confident we could find some sensible ways to apply that research to skating.

 

[VGThuy]

And there is a strawman argument being raised as well. Nobody is saying we need get rid of all injuries (impossible) or that we will never allow skaters to assess the risk/reward themselves when practicing, but we should also be mindful of negative or dangerous coaching practices that will needlessly increase the risk of injury and longterm physical, mental, and emotional health issues. Listing a number of freak accidents that can happen anywhere and with any activity isn't going to answer that problem, though in a way it's an admission that sports activity and increased physical demands ARE leading to increase of risk of injuries.

There's also a question when minors should be allowed to decide for themselves to assess the balance of risk and injury and if they really know the consequences of such injuries. Many don't. Of course, people will say you can never stop a skater from practicing on their own, which is true, but we're talking about things a coach/official practice under supervision with an authority can help and has some control over. Everything else is on the parents of the minor and then the skater themselves.

 

[tony]

Except you are.

Why did she fall? There is always the risk that an accident just happened. It could also be a whole host of nutrition, compensating for existing injury, overtraining issues, etc. It still comes back to having to evaluate a camp in relation to all of them to say whether there is a trend or not. People are seeing a trend same as what they see with Tom Z. That's why the comments are coming up.

I'm going by the info we have from an adult.

Would you rather me state things as matter of fact when we have no concrete info of any of it to be true? That sure happens plenty in threads like this.

 

[rfisher]

Then kids shouldn't be actors, they shouldn't excel at music or musical performance, they shouldn't have hobbies of any kind that put them in any kind of pressure or chance to set them apart as 'better' because the mental game can be and has shown to be just as devastating (if not more) as having a career-ending injury.

And once again, what is raising the age going to do? Are you going to police all of the rinks and watch what they are attempting in practice? Or for any sport really? You think 17 and 18 year olds are going to show up to compete in a sport having never learned anything prior to that? Come on.

Or play high school athletics or middle school or pee-wee baseball. Ball takes bad hop and a kid gets a broken face. We x-ray them every day. They shouldn't ride bicylces or tricycles or let toddlers learn to walk. The percentage of kids in the ED who get hurt doing kid stuff is much greater than those playing high level sports. No skate boards or skis or roller skates.

 

[BlueRidge]

Or play high school athletics or middle school or pee-wee baseball. Ball takes bad hop and a kid gets a broken face. We x-ray them every day. They shouldn't ride bicylces or tricycles or let toddlers learn to walk. The percentage of kids in the ED who get hurt doing kid stuff is much greater than those playing high level sports. No skate boards or skis or roller skates.

and teens suffer eating disorders who don't engage in sports so if its happening in a sport, so much the merrier!

 

[alchemy void]

Or play high school athletics or middle school or pee-wee baseball. Ball takes bad hop and a kid gets a broken face. We x-ray them every day. They shouldn't ride bicylces or tricycles or let toddlers learn to walk. The percentage of kids in the ED who get hurt doing kid stuff is much greater than those playing high level sports. No skate boards or skis or roller skates.

Oh come on. This argument is so disingenuous and you know it.

No one is saying we should restrict skating to only triple salchows to prevent injury. But I don't think it is so outrageous or preposterous to be alarmed or question the injury rate of skaters coming from the Tutberidze camp.

Hey, maybe we'll be fortunate enough for Gleikhengauz to give us an injury update on his "beloved" student and that will clear everything up.

 

[rfisher]

and teens suffer eating disorders who don't engage in sports so if its happening in a sport, so much the merrier!

Well, that's all IG and Facebook's fault. Not Facebook since no teen will willingly use a media their grandma uses, but IG. I hear it every day on Morning Joe.

 

[BlueRidge]

Oh come on. This argument is so disingenuous and you know it.

I've stayed out of this because I have no information on which coaches are doing anything or not.

But there's a point at which it is galling that people seem to want to deny even the possibility that there could be problems. That's really absurd. There have been problems and if there might be, then people who are stakeholders should be concerned if they see signs. That is not in fact us on a message board, but for goodness sakes, acting like it won't happen at all is irresponsible.

 

[Trillian]

There's also a question when minors should be allowed to decide for themselves to assess the balance of risk and injury and if they really know the consequences of such injuries. Many don't. Of course, people will say you can never stop a skater from practicing on their own, which is true, but we're talking about things a coach/official practice under supervision with an authority can help and has some control over. Everything else is on the parents of the minor and then the skater themselves.

This is a really important point. Nobody involved with skating wants to be the responsible adult and say no to these kids. Just because a child can do something, it doesn’t mean that they should - or that they should do it for so many hours a day, or they should be doing it if they’re not getting proper nutrients, or whatever. Some kids are very driven to succeed, but it is also the responsibility of adults to provide the tools and guardrails the kids need to succeed in a healthy manner. Even if a kid thinks they’re willing to do “whatever it takes” in pursuit of a goal, that doesn’t mean adults should allow it - or applaud it from a distance.

 

[BlueRidge]

Well, that's all IG and Facebook's fault. Not Facebook since no teen will willingly use a media their grandma uses, but IG. I hear it every day on Morning Joe.

Look you know that there are actual problems that happen in skating. I don't think you really mean to so completely dismiss the possibility as this sounds like.

I don't know anything as I said about particular coaches, but completely mocking the idea is really not valid.

 

[rfisher]

Oh come on. This argument is so disingenuous and you know it.

No one is saying we should restrict skating to only triple salchows to prevent injury. But I don't think it is so outrageous to be alarmed or question what we see coming out of the Tutberidze camp.

No more so than the skaters who've trained at Sambo-70 are the only skaters who get injured argument. Bradie Tennell has been out all season. MBM ruptured her achilles. O'Shea and Liu's concussion. Nathan injured his hip and missed months. Vincent missed an entire year due to injury. Kwan's hip injury was kept a big secret. Torgashev out all this year with a recurring injury. And, the biggest recurring injury nobody talks about is Sui. How many surgeries has she had to have over the past 8 years? They haven't managed to skate a full season in at least 4 years due to injury with one or the other, but nobody is calling out Zhou for his training methods. For that matter, Hanyu has been injured every year for the past 8 years. He's another who hasn't skated a full season. Why aren't the torches being lit for Orser? The complainers don't like the skaters from Sambo-70 and are perfectly willing to ignore any other skater they do like who has injuries, even chronic or recurring ones. That's what is disingenuous about this whole topic every. time. it. comes. up.

But, I could cite every downhill skier's injuries. How many surgeries did Vonn have? Schiffer? She's struggling now preparing for the Olympics. Professional surfers. Want me to cite how many times Kelly Slater has been hurt? Pick the sport. There's a reason there's something called sports medicine which specializes in athletic injuries. People can't live in a bubble.

 

[rfisher]

Look you know that there are actual problems that happen in skating. I don't think you really mean to so completely dismiss the possibility as this sounds like.

I don't know anything as I said about particular coaches, but completely mocking the idea is really not valid.

 

[BlueRidge]

No more so than the skaters who've trained at Sambo-70 are the only skaters who get injured argument. Bradie Tennell has been out all season. MBM ruptured her achilles. O'Shea and Liu's concussion. Nathan injured his hip and missed months. Vincent missed an entire year due to injury. Kwan's hip injury was kept a big secret. Torgashev out all this year with a recurring injury. And, the biggest recurring injury nobody talks about is Sui. How many surgeries has she had to have over the past 8 years? They haven't managed to skate a full season in at least 4 years due to injury with one or the other, but nobody is calling out Zhou for his training methods. For that matter, Hanyu has been injured every year for the past 8 years. He's another who hasn't skated a full season. Why aren't the torches being lit for Orser? The complainers don't like the skaters from Sambo-70 and are perfectly willing to ignore any other skater they do like who has injuries, even chronic or recurring ones. That's what is disingenuous about this whole topic every. time. it. comes. up.

Well you quoted me and didn't say anything but I think you are agreeing with my point here. There are problems and the sport needs to do more to address them. I appreciate this rundown because I think the sport should be more concerned about how skaters train and compete across the board.

I realize people have made different assessments on the information available to fans regarding Tutberidze and I have no way to judge that, I just want the overall issue to be taken seriously.

With regard to eating disorders, yes its much more widespread but if a training center in figure skating uses methods that promote disordered eating among the skaters then that needs to be addressed specifically. One does not preclude the other. And if you believe that nothing of the sort is happening in Tutberidze's camp that's fine to make that judgement but I don't agree with therefore suggesting we shouldn't be concerned about it happening anywhere in figure skating because it happens other places as well. This really is not a good way of defending Tutberidze.

 

[rfisher]

Actually, I'm quite serious about that. Skating fans are aware of the issues related to skating, but EDs are much more common outside skating and have sky rocketed with social media use by pre teens and teenagers. There have been internal reports from Instagram that indicate they are very aware of this. So, while figure skating and other sports have a subset, the problem with EDs and social media is much wider and is pretty much ignored.

I meant to quote the previous post.

 

[muffinplus]

No more so than the skaters who've trained at Sambo-70 are the only skaters who get injured argument. Bradie Tennell has been out all season. MBM ruptured her achilles. O'Shea and Liu's concussion. Nathan injured his hip and missed months. Vincent missed an entire year due to injury. Kwan's hip injury was kept a big secret. Torgashev out all this year with a recurring injury. And, the biggest recurring injury nobody talks about is Sui. How many surgeries has she had to have over the past 8 years? They haven't managed to skate a full season in at least 4 years due to injury with one or the other, but nobody is calling out Zhou for his training methods. For that matter, Hanyu has been injured every year for the past 8 years. He's another who hasn't skated a full season. Why aren't the torches being lit for Orser? The complainers don't like the skaters from Sambo-70 and are perfectly willing to ignore any other skater they do like who has injuries, even chronic or recurring ones. That's what is disingenuous about this whole topic every. time. it. comes. up.

Their argument is that (young) Eteri skaters get more injured than others disproportionately and people putting forward the argument are not even interested in actual reasons behind the injuries that are based on the available information …as it always automatically has to with overuse / Eteri methods … even after Kostornaia said it was a freak accident ( you know they just told her to shut up). She is the 3rd skater out of the Eteri group with an injury , but that group is quite high profile… and then we have Hanyu, Kihira, Tennell all out with injuries

 

[Wyliefan]

The complainers don't like the skaters from Sambo-70 and are perfectly willing to ignore any other skater they do like who has injuries, even chronic or recurring ones. That's what is disingenuous about this whole topic every. time. it. comes. up.

That's not the slightest bit true. I think the skaters from Sambo-70 are talented, lovely, hardworking, amazing young women and I admire them like crazy. The same is true for many of us who have issues with Eteri's methods. If Anna wins the Olympics, I'll probably break out the bubbly, and even if it's not Anna but Kamila or Sasha or even Maiia, I'll be pleased for whichever one it is. I'd have been thrilled for Alena if this injury hadn't happened and if she had won an Olympic medal, too.

It's quite possible to like a skater and think his or her coach is a problem. People do it all the time.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

No more so than the skaters who've trained at Sambo-70 are the only skaters who get injured argument. Bradie Tennell has been out all season. ....

You know perfectly well that Tom Z gets criticized all the time. Bradie moved to Tom. And now she's injured. Don't act like no one has pointed this out. People were concerned about it and predicted this when she announced the move. I hoped for the best but clearly it didn't work.

No one is saying athletes don't get injured. No one expects an injury free sport. Could people stop using that as an argument? It's not what anyone is saying at all.

I'll say it again. The people in charge are not doing enough. It is a problem in all sports. Until they step up and make it a priority to stop abuse and training issues that are known to be less safe and effective, people are going to fill in the blanks for them when they see trends on their own. There is no trust at all that a sport will care about the athletes if it interferes with other priorities that should be last on the list instead of first. So this topic keeps coming up and will continue to show up until this is addressed and not ignored or belittled.

 

[muffinplus]

Bradie was injured before Tom Z. She has this back injury for a while from what I read recently…since 2015.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Bradie was injured before Tom Z. She has this back injury for a while from what I read recently…since 2015.

Except she's been out all season because of a foot injury.