ISU World Standings Have Been Updated

[Vagabond]

But that’s a problem with the judging, no? Judges who overlook flaws in and/or award higher GOE/PCS to skaters based on their start order, reputation (or lack thereof), and jump content aren’t following the stated guidelines. The ISU seems to accept it as perfectly fine because they’re not getting disciplined for it.

That's not a flaw in the world rankings? That's a flaw in the judging.

It's a flaw in both the judging and using the World Rankings.

As much as I love the idea of disciplining judges until they apply COP "correctly," I don't think that it would be easy to do. The bias in favor of skaters who start later in the Short Program appears to be unconscious and nearly universal among judges. If it were up to me, I would work on improving the quality of judging, but I would also stop seeding Short Programs in international Senior competition.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I am fine with the world rankings as they are I mean yeah you do have to get your butt out there and attend some events but what I wish they would do is keep the random draws. That may be an unpopular opinion but I really feel that way

 

[haribobo]

The less active and/or injured skaters definitely take a hit but so is the case in tennis and any sport with rankings. The main problem for me is that US/JPN/RUS skaters outside of the top 3 or 5 can't get to Euros/4CC or Worlds so they are held down a bit compared to the Kurakova's and Litvintsev's who show up everywhere. But that is life and probably won't ever change...Otherwise I'm totally ok with the rankings as is.

 

[Tavi]

It's a flaw in both the judging and using the World Rankings.

As much as I love the idea of disciplining judges until they apply COP "correctly," I don't think that it would be easy to do. The bias in favor of skaters who start later in the Short Program appears to be unconscious and nearly universal among judges. If it were up to me, I would work on improving the quality of judging, but I would also stop seeding Short Programs in international Senior competition.

You may be right about unconscious bias, and I absolutely agree some skaters who skate early are under marked. But I don’t think it’s just because of start order. You can always find examples of skaters who skate early in the SP who end up medaling, although admittedly that’s most frequent when the skater is from a big fed or already has a reputation but starts early due to having been out of competition. But I think there’s other stuff at play, because super talented skaters from small feds like Javi and D10 do break through.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

It's a flaw in both the judging and using the World Rankings.

So again, it’s a flaw in how the ranks are used, not in how the skaters are ranked.

 

[allezfred]

I don't see how you can rank competitors if they don't compete at competitions.

 

[alj5]

There is no perfect way to rank competitors. There's no perfect judging system.

It's just the rules we are working within at the moment.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

As much as I love the idea of disciplining judges until they apply COP "correctly," I don't think that it would be easy to do. The bias in favor of skaters who start later in the Short Program appears to be unconscious and nearly universal among judges. If it were up to me, I would work on improving the quality of judging, but I would also stop seeding Short Programs in international Senior competition.

In theory I agree with unseeded short programs. Put a Shcherbakova in the first group, mixed in with skaters from Brazil and India, just to show the difference between a 3 and a 9 in skating skills or whatever. Problem is that Shcherbakova would likely score lower than a Trusova skating in the final group due to the skate order. It's not fair to the earlier skaters, unfortunately. And I don't see that ever changing. Sure you can skate first like Butyrskaya in Nagano and have your program hold up, but what if Butyrskaya skated in the final group? I really didn't like Lipinski's SP that year. Tara was not a technical skater per se. She had jumps, but her elements were mostly of low quality. Unfortunately her second mark skills were worse so she was considered as being a great "technician".... But anyway, unseeded short programs would be better, except for judges' preconceived or innate biases concerning skate order.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

In theory I agree with unseeded short programs. Put a Shcherbakova in the first group, mixed in with skaters from Brazil and India, just to show the difference between a 3 and a 9 in skating skills or whatever. Problem is that Shcherbakova would likely score lower than a Trusova skating in the final group due to the skate order. It's not fair to the earlier skaters, unfortunately. And I don't see that ever changing. Sure you can skate first like Butyrskaya in Nagano and have your program hold up, but what if Butyrskaya skated in the final group? I really didn't like Lipinski's SP that year. Tara was not a technical skater per se. She had jumps, but her elements were mostly of low quality. Unfortunately her second mark skills were worse so she was considered as being a great "technician".... But anyway, unseeded short programs would be better, except for judges' preconceived or innate biases concerning skate order.

Not a fan of the Sugarland-via-NJ Sweetheart?

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Not a fan of the Sugarland-via-NJ Sweetheart?

This Houston-via-NJ Sweethearrt was a fan of hers back in the day, but can see how poorly her skating has held up considering today's standards.

 

[Coco]

Low quality my @$$!

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

There is an unprecedented level of vulgarity on the forum today.

First there are wh*res in The Trash Can and now I see @ss here. Disappointing.

-BB

 

[jiejie]

With respect to short program draws for major competitions, there is a middle ground between using strict World Standings (or some other numerical ranking) and full random draws. The field could be divided up and random draws within each group. For instance, in a theoretical field of 30 women, divide in half. The 15 skaters with the lower rankings random draw for start orders 1-15, the 15 higher-ranked skaters draw for start orders 16-30. I could have sworn some version of this was done in past competitions, though it might have been several years ago.

 

[haribobo]

Updates after Skate America

WOMEN
Alexandra Trusova 2 to 1
Kaori Sakamoto 6 to 4
Young You 8 to 6
Yelim Kim 13 to 10
Satoko Miyahara 19 to 15
Daria Usacheva 35 to 20
Amber Glenn 33 to 23
Kseniia Sinitsina 77 to 42

PAIRS
Tarasova/Morozov 2 to 1
Boikova/Kozlovskii 5 to 3
Calalang/Johnson 10 to 9
Miura/Kihara 14 to 10
Knierim/Frazier 15 to 13
Walsh/Michaud 17 to 16
Pepeleva/Pleshkov 19 to 17
Liu/O’Shea 39 to 26

DANCE
Chock/Bates 1 to 1
Hubbell/Donohue 4 to 2
FBS 9 to 7
Smart/Diaz 11 to 10
Kaliszek/Spodyriev 15 to 13
Soucisse/Firus 19 to 17
Komatsubara/Koleto 48 to 40
Morozov/Bagin 59 to 41

MEN
Nathan Chen 4 to 2
Daniel Grassl 5 to 5
Shoma Uno 11 to 8
Shun Sato 19 to 14
Nam Nguyen 25 to 18
Vincent Zhou 44 to 19
Jimmy Ma 43 to 23
Michal Brezina 41 to 25

 

[Vagabond]

MEN
Nathan Chen 4 to 2

If that doesn't demonstrate how much of a disaster his performance was at Skate America, nothing will.

 

[haribobo]

After Skate Canada

WOMEN
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva 5 to 3
Alena Kostornaia 8 to 6
Alysa Liu 13 to 10
Kamila Valieva 18 to 11
Haein Lee 19 to 15
Wakaba Higuchi 30 to 19
Madeline Schizas 39 to 33
Mai Mihara 107 to 48

PAIRS
Sui/Han 4 to 2
MTM 6 to 6
Cain/LeDuc 7 to 7
Hase/Seegert 14 to 10
Pavliuchenko/Khodykin 16 to 14
James/Radford 33 to 22
Jones/Boyadji 34 to 28
Matte/Ferland NONE to 49

MEN
Nathan Chen 2 to 1
Jason Brown 4 to 3
Keegan Messing 9 to 6
Morisi Kvitelashvili 10 to 8
Alexander Samarin 12 to 11
Evgeny Semenenko 29 to 16
Makar Ignatov 42 to 23
Sota Yamamoto 52 to 43

DANCE
Gilles/Poirier 3 to 2
Guignard/Fabbri 5 to 4
Fear/Gibson 6 to 6
Smart/Diaz 10 to 7
Lajoie/Lagha 16 to 12
Green/Parsons 20 to 17
Carreira/Ponomarenko 21 to 21
Davis/Smolkin 31 to 22

 

[missing]

Nathan Chen is Number 1 in the world?

I demand a recount!

 

[haribobo]

Updates after GP Italia

WOMEN
Anna Shcherbakova 2 to 1
Yelim Kim 13 to 11
Satoko Miyahara 17 to 13
Loena Hendrickx 23 to 16
Eunsoo Lim 24 to 19
Maiia Khromykh 37 to 21
Sofia Samodurova 28 to 22
Mai Mihara 50 to 37

MEN
Yuma Kagiyama 4 to 2
Daniel Grassl 5 to 5
Boyang Jin 12 to 11
Jun-hwan Cha 15 to 13
Deniss Vasiljevs 17 to 14
Mikhail Kolyada 24 to 15
Petr Gumennik 23 to 18
Kazuki Tomono 47 to 31

PAIRS
Sui/Han 2 to 1
Peng/Jin 5 to 3
Della Monica/Guarise 8 to 8
Ghilardi/Ambrosini 12 to 9
Pepeleva/Pleshkov 18 to 17
Artemeva/Nazarychev 27 to 20
Conti/Macii 45 to 35

DANCE
Hubbell/Donohue 3 to 1
Stepanova/Bukin 10 to 7
Papadakis/Cizeron 11 to 9
Wang/Liu 15 to 12
Green/Parsons 17 to 13
Soucisse/Firus 18 to 17
Muller/Dieck 24 to 22
Lopareva/Brissaud 31 to 23

 

[Andrea82]

ISU have not added Victor Petrenko Cup's points in Ice Dance yet. The event should count becuase there were 6 teams from 5 countries and Technical Panel was from 3 different ISU members (GBR-UKR-GER).

This week there will be further movements for Men and Women because NRW Trophy, Tayside Trophy and Volvo Cup have met the requirements in terms of entries. NRW will also give points in ID and Tayside in Pairs.

 

[haribobo]

Updates after NHK Trophy

MEN
Shoma Uno 10 to 6
Matteo Rizzo 8 to 7
Jun-hwan Cha 13 to 11
Alexander Samarin 12 to 12
Vincent Zhou 24 to 15
Makar Ignatov 25 to 18
Sota Yamamoto 46 to 33
Kao Miura 156 to 92

WOMEN
Kaori Sakamoto 5 to 3
Young You 7 to 5
Alysa Liu 12 to 9
Eunsoo Lim 20 to 15
Amber Glenn 28 to 21
Nicole Schott 35 to 28
Mana Kawabe 81 to 44
Rino Matsuike 156 to 80

PAIRS
Tarasova/Morozov 2 to 1
Mishina/Galliamov 4 to 3
Cain/LeDuc 7 to 6
Miura/Kihara 12 to 9
Hase/Seegert 11 to 10
Walsh/Michaud 18 to 14
Lu/Mitrofanov 29 to 21

DANCE
Chock/Bates 2 to 1
Sinitsina/Katsalapov 5 to 4
Fear/Gibson 6 to 6
Hurtado/Khaliavin 11 to 7
Lajoie/Lagha 14 to 12
Nazarova/Nikitin 25 to 20
Komatsubara/Koleto 42 to 32
Muramoto/Takahashi NONE to 90

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

I am fine with the world rankings as they are I mean yeah you do have to get your butt out there and attend some events but what I wish they would do is keep the random draws. That may be an unpopular opinion but I really feel that way

Instead of totally random draws, what I think would be most fair in the long run is have seeds going into Worlds. And that in each warm-up group there are two seeded skaters (1,6; 2,5; 3;4) so that there is no "saving the marks" for later skaters. It also makes the early groups bearable to watch. Also it does then put pressure on the final group skaters to know that their competition has all skated cleanly and the marks 'have already been given'. I think it would make a more enjoyable experience for the audience, and fairer to the skaters once the judges get used to the fact that the first skater in the SP at Worlds could also win it by 10 points and see it held up over the entire event. That's something I'd consider.

 

[taz'smum]

Instead of totally random draws, what I think would be most fair in the long run is have seeds going into Worlds. And that in each warm-up group there are two seeded skaters (1,6; 2,5; 3;4) so that there is no "saving the marks" for later skaters. It also makes the early groups bearable to watch. Also it does then put pressure on the final group skaters to know that their competition has all skated cleanly and the marks 'have already been given'. I think it would make a more enjoyable experience for the audience, and fairer to the skaters once the judges get used to the fact that the first skater in the SP at Worlds could also win it by 10 points and see it held up over the entire event. That's something I'd consider.

It would certainly make it more interesting to watch.
Unfortunately, it suits the TV programming to have the best skaters in the final groups.

It is very sad when the rankings make it really difficult for skaters who have been off injured.
Having to skate in an earlier group really hurts PCS, even for well known skaters.

It's a shame that we can't have marking by AI robots, that would shake things up a lot!

It would be incredible, as the robots could go into incredible detail in nano-seconds.
They could evaluate ice coverage of an element, speed, precision etc in a way that would be too much for humans.
All of course totally impartially, yayy!

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

It would certainly make it more interesting to watch.
Unfortunately, it suits the TV programming to have the best skaters in the final groups.

Yes. Networks definitely would not like that. But just for the SP? Why not? The network will have their top two groups for television for the LP. I just find it unfair to rank skaters for the SP order and the early skaters are frankly robbed sometimes just because of the skate draw. Say Kamila skates first in the first group of the SP, lays down all her difficulty, and we see the "best" right out of the gate. The next girl after her might be a potential top 10-15 skater and her marks might now be better judged after seeing a top-flight skater, instead of getting buried by "first warm-up group marks".

It's a thought.

 

[VGThuy]

I used to like how they did it after the compulsory dances for the Original Dance skate order. The top ten would be randomly drawn for the last two groups. And the bottom half were randomly drawn for the first half, etc.

What is the short program order for the Olympics and Worlds? I’m not a fan of reverse order of rankings and especially not of reverse order for the LP (but the top 3 random order for the final three slots seems like it’s here to stay).

 

[tony]

What is the short program order for the Olympics and Worlds? I’m not a fan of reverse order of rankings and especially not of reverse order for the LP (but the top 3 random order for the final three slots seems like it’s here to stay).

Total amount of competitors split into top and bottoms halves. For Olympics when we know the set amount will be 30 men/women, 15 go into the first half and 15 into the second half based on world ranking. The skaters in the final group are the ones with the top 6 world rankings, same thing applies to penultimate group (7-12 best world rankings). The 3 other skaters who make the 'second half' (13-15 best world ranking) go as the final 3 spots in the third warmup group (out of five in this scenario). Everyone else, the 'first half' group of 15, is drawn randomly. Only exception is if a skater has no world ranking points, they will go first or drawn to go before everyone else if there is more than one skater in this situation.

I think a lot of people say that they want random orders back but I don't think much would change. The judges still follow skating outside of that one competition and know who they are going to throw maybe undeserved PCS and GOE. As already mentioned for television purposes and even for arena excitement, I think the current method works. I also don't mind the top 3 going in the final 3 spots of the night in the LP.

 

[RoseRed]

It would certainly make it more interesting to watch.
Unfortunately, it suits the TV programming to have the best skaters in the final groups.

It is very sad when the rankings make it really difficult for skaters who have been off injured.
Having to skate in an earlier group really hurts PCS, even for well known skaters.

It's a shame that we can't have marking by AI robots, that would shake things up a lot!

It would be incredible, as the robots could go into incredible detail in nano-seconds.
They could evaluate ice coverage of an element, speed, precision etc in a way that would be too much for humans.
All of course totally impartially, yayy!

AI can be biased. It's designed by people, and tends to reflect the biases of the designer (not purposely).

 

[AxelAnnie]

I am thrilled by the way the ISU has thoughtfully weighted the numbers to come out with an equitable formula for weighting the scrores, given the pandemic. It is not hard. Any statistician could pound out a spreadsheet that can factor in the number of skated events, event that were cancelled (put in median score for the season) total it up and divide /or multiply (which ever is you want to use, both would work).

But what the ISU is has done is crap!

 

[haribobo]

Updated after GP France

MEN
Kagiyama 2 to 1
Brown 4 to 2
Aliev 9 to 7
Messing 8 to 8
Vasiljevs 14 to 14
Shun Sato 19 to 15
Fa 23 to 17
Mozalev 24 to 19

WOMEN
Shcherbakova 1 to 1
Kostornaia 7 to 4
Chen 8 to 7
Ryabova 11 to 9
Higuchi 26 to 12
Bell 35 to 28
YJPark 62 to 32
Sinitsyna 49 to 34

PAIRS
Boikova/Kozlovskii 5 to 4
Ghilardi/Ambrosini 11 to 9
Knierim/Frazier 16 to 12
Artemeva/Nazarychev 20 to 17
Chtchetinina/Magyar 19 to 20
James/Radford 24 to 21
Keriven/Pierre 40 to 30
Kovalev/Kovalev NONE to 52

DANCE
Gilles/Poirier 3 to 2
Stepanova/Bukin 8 to 7
Papadakis/Cizeron 10 to 8
Carreira/Ponomarenko 22 to 19
Reed/Ambrulevicius 19 to 20
Lopareva/Brissaud 24 to 21
Turkkila/Versluis 38 to 26
Morozov/Bagin 43 to 33

 

[missing]

I don't know what is sillier, that Jason is ahead of Nathan or that Daniel Grassl is ahead of everyone except Yuma, Jason and Nathan.

 

[Aceon6]

I don't know what is sillier, that Jason is ahead of Nathan or that Daniel Grassl is ahead of everyone except Yuma, Jason and Nathan.

PapCiz behind GillP is pretty silly as is Karen ahead of Wakaba. But we used to say the same thing about golf rankings until they got the system sorted out to reward the most current scores 2x more than the older ones. Then, there’s the crud factor.