ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

[allezfred]

Sweden is barring Canadian citizens at the moment. The current ban is until December 22, but does anyone really expect it not to be extended?

Well, there you go. I guess I have been reading too much of what Louis has written here.

 

[MacMadame]

We talk about adults making informed decisions a lot but I find that given that this pandemic has been so politicized, that data is constantly changing and that educational efforts to spread what information we have has been minimal, I'm not so sure that's even possible.

We are all doing the best we can but we aren't all operating with the best information and some of the actions of government -- who do have more information than us -- don't always communicate risk appropriately.

 

[Orm Irian]

Yes, hence why I said the skaters should have a choice assuming they can get to Sweden legally. If there is a travel advisory or the Canadian government says they can’t go, then it’s not really up to the skaters at that point.

It's not even as simple as that, though. Flights have been reduced all over the world, so: Will there be flights available in the right timeframe? And if there are, how much will they cost? Flight costs have been blasted sky-high due to the lack of flights, with economy travellers desperate to get home regularly paying business-class prices for a bare-bones trip; given that IIRC the host federation pays for Worlds travel and accommodation for all skaters, team members and officials, will the Swedish federation be able to cover that additional cost, which it certainly wouldn't have known it had to budget for when it put in its application for the event? Where will any available flights leave from, and will any athletes have to quarantine for two weeks following internal border crossings in order to get to their departure point, thus disrupting their training? And if Sweden is accepting travellers from Canada by the time of Worlds, will they still have to do a two-week quarantine on entering the country nonetheless, also disrupting their training?

Just because something's theoretically possible to do doesn't mean the logistics can't make doing it all but impossible in practical terms, sadly.

 

[Sylvia]

Flights have been reduced all over the world, so: Will there be flights available in the right timeframe? And if there are, how much will they cost? Flight costs have been blasted sky-high due to the lack of flights, with economy travellers desperate to get home regularly paying business-class prices for a bare-bones trip; given that IIRC the host federation pays for Worlds travel and accommodation for all skaters, team members and officials

I believe the skaters' federations (the ones that have the resources) pay for travel expenses to/from Worlds - link to my post last week: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...21-skating-season.107193/page-45#post-5904480

ETA a sentence from Finnish skating federation article that I've linked in the Finnish news thread here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-news-2018-onwards.104367/page-7#post-5908143

"The International Skating Federation ISU will meet on December 10th. After the meeting, we can expect more information from ISU regarding the organization of value competitions" [such as Europeans].

 

[starrynight]

It isn't as simple as that. If for example there is a Canadian Ministry for Foreign Affairs travel advisory for Sweden saying the Canadians should avoid travel there, then whatever insurance policy Skate Canada has will likely not cover their skaters competing at Worlds.

Yes. Most insurance policies have pandemic exclusions and pretty much all travel insurance will not cover pandemic either.

 

[ballettmaus]

We talk about adults making informed decisions a lot but I find that given that this ********* has been so politicized, that data is constantly changing and that educational efforts to spread what information we have has been minimal, I'm not so sure that's even possible.

And if you're referring to skaters then not all of them are adults yet. (I also believe that there are skaters who will have less of a choice than others should Worlds be held).

 

[MsZem]

Yes. Most insurance policies have ********* exclusions and pretty much all travel insurance will not cover ********* either.

Of course you can get travel insurance, it's just going to be more costly. I would imagine that competitive athletes don't get standard insurance anyway.

What You Need to Know Now About Travel Insurance

A spate of new travel insurance policies have begun covering Covid-19, just as many international destinations begin to require it. Here’s what to look for.

nyti.ms

This is not what's going to cause problems in terms of holding Worlds.

 

[cholla]

And if there are, how much will they cost? Flight costs have been blasted sky-high due to the lack of flights, with economy travellers desperate to get home regularly paying business-class prices for a bare-bones trip;

I checked airfares from Geneva to Stockholm a few weeks ago, then again yesterday, and prices are not at all what I was expecting. € 168 for a two ways tickets It's the price of a round train ticket to Paris from my place. Flying to Stockholm for Euros 5 years ago costed me more than the double. That being said, I'm well aware that I'm talking about intra-Euro flights, not overseas. Still, this is considerably lower than usual. I'm actually very tempted to already buy flight tickets. At worse, if Worlds are canceled, I lose € 168. If I wait and Worlds are held, airfares could skyrocket in 2021. It will be hard for me to fork € 350 or 400. So I'm really on the fence here...

 

[starrynight]

The situation varies so much around the world.

I think international travel seems crazy to Australians ... but that's because there's queues of tens of thousands of people waiting to get back in because the number of return travellers allowed each week is really low. There's stories of families being stuck overseas since March with no real certainty of when they can get back in.

So from this perspective, asking a heap of young people and coaches and chaperones to head off on international travel seems impossible. But the situation overseas seems different.

 

[MsZem]

I think international travel seems crazy to Australians ... but that's because there's queues of tens of thousands of people waiting to get back in because the number of return travellers allowed each week is really low. There's stories of families being stuck overseas since March with no real certainty of when they can get back in.

So from this perspective, asking a heap of young people and coaches and chaperones to head off on international travel seems impossible. But the situation overseas seems different.

Yes, Australia's circumstances allow it to aim for zero cases. Most countries are not in that position, and travel is possible (though not necessarily encouraged), plus I can't imagine anyone enacting the kind of extended lockdown that happened in Victoria. It's just not feasible.

 

[starrynight]

I do worry that such a worlds has the potential to be a political nightmare.

What does Papadakis do if she can't return to Canada after leaving for Stockholm? Choose to not participate in Worlds and France loses the spots? Or go and then have to train for the Olympics in France away from Montreal? Russia and the USA would be thrilled with that.

Then Canada loses their spots because the rinks have been closed and the athletes have lost training time...

This puts some countries at serious advantage over others. Looking to the Olympics, such a Worlds would put Russia in the box seat for the Team Gold if they are the country able to retain spots.

 

[Vagabond]

This puts some countries at serious advantage over others. Looking to the Olympics, such a Worlds would put Russia in the box seat for the Team Gold if they are the country able to retain spots.

As things stand right now, Russia will not be allowed to participate in the Team Event at the 2022 Olympics.

Russia Banned From Olympics and Global Sports for 4 Years Over Doping (Published 2019)

The World Anti-Doping Agency’s unanimous decision, if upheld, would exclude Russia from the 2020 Olympics, but many Russian athletes could be unaffected by the decision.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Tries New Weapon in Fight Against Doping Ban: Emotion (Published 2020)

The decision to uphold, or overturn, Russia’s four-year ban could determine if antidoping officials can ever punish state-backed cheating programs.

www.nytimes.com

 

[MsZem]

As things stand right now, Russia will not be allowed to participate in the Team Event at the 2022 Olympics.

Russia Banned From Olympics and Global Sports for 4 Years Over Doping (Published 2019)

The World Anti-Doping Agency’s unanimous decision, if upheld, would exclude Russia from the 2020 Olympics, but many Russian athletes could be unaffected by the decision.

www.nytimes.com

Russia Tries New Weapon in Fight Against Doping Ban: Emotion (Published 2020)

The decision to uphold, or overturn, Russia’s four-year ban could determine if antidoping officials can ever punish state-backed cheating programs.

www.nytimes.com

But "Olympic Athletes from Russia" can still go.

I do worry that such a worlds has the potential to be a political nightmare.

What does Papadakis do if she can't return to Canada after leaving for Stockholm? Choose to not participate in Worlds and France loses the spots? Or go and then have to train for the Olympics in France away from Montreal? Russia and the USA would be thrilled with that.

Then Canada loses their spots because the rinks have been closed and the athletes have lost training time...

This puts some countries at serious advantage over others. Looking to the Olympics, such a Worlds would put Russia in the box seat for the Team Gold if they are the country able to retain spots.

Maybe by spring Canada will establish some kind of program for people who live in Canada but have yet to obtain residency, or athletes will be able to apply for resident status.

At some point you have to make a call regarding sports events, and I don't know that punishing everyone because some countries have more stringent restrictions in place is fair, either.

 

[Vagabond]

But "Olympic Athletes from Russia" can still go.

If the appeal is denied, those who can prove to the IOC's satisfaction that they haven't doped won't be designated as Olympic Athletes from Russia (OAR) as they were in 2018. They will compete as Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games or something similar, without any reference to their country. This may mean that they will share their designation with refugees, stateless athletes, and athletes from other countries whose federations are likewise banned for one reason or another.

The current ban is meant to be more severe, as well as much longer, than the previous one.

 

[mjb52]

I mean, frankly, at that point, what is the point of having an Olympics at all? If you have athletes who have been caught doping competing so long as they are from the "right" country, while athletes who had nothing to do with whatever is alleged to have happened in Russia are banned?

 

[Vagabond]

athletes who had nothing to do with whatever is alleged to have happened in Russia are banned?

No. Athletes from Russia who had nothing to do with the doping will be allowed to compete, just as individuals and not as part of a Russian team or as "Olympic Athletes from Russia."

 

[mjb52]

Will they? I don't have a lot of faith in this process after what was done to Bukin? Nor do I think it is fair that they must go in sackcloth and ashes to the Games while known dopers get to wear their own country's flag... which they will and have in the past, as I'm sure you are well aware.

 

[MsZem]

If the appeal is denied, those who can prove to the IOC's satisfaction that they haven't doped won't be designated as Olympic Athletes from Russia (OAR) as they were in 2018. They will compete as Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games or something similar, without any reference to their country. This may mean that they will share their designation with refugees, stateless athletes, and athletes from other countries whose federations are likewise banned for one reason or another.

The refugees would probably compete separately from any independent athletes; it's considered an honor, and in Rio they marched in right before the host delegation and got a standing ovation. I'm not sure such a team is planned for the 2022 games, however.

 

[taz'smum]

If the appeal is denied, those who can prove to the IOC's satisfaction that they haven't doped won't be designated as Olympic Athletes from Russia (OAR) as they were in 2018. They will compete as Independent Olympians at the Olympic Games or something similar, without any reference to their country. This may mean that they will share their designation with refugees, stateless athletes, and athletes from other countries whose federations are likewise banned for one reason or another.

The current ban is meant to be more severe, as well as much longer, than the previous one.

Which begs the question, will the Russian Fed still be prepared to pay for the independent athletes to go if it is not to represent Russia...

 

[Vagabond]

Which begs the question, will the Russian Fed still be prepared to pay for the independent athletes to go if it is not to represent Russia...

And if the answer is no, what will the Russian Federation pay for? As far as I can tell, if the ban is affirmed on appeal, Russian skaters won't be representing their country at ISU events for the next four years; they will be competing as individuals. Will FSFR pay for these athletes to travel to Worlds, Europeans, the Grand Prix, etc.? What about helping with other training expenses? These questions will be the same across all Olympic sports.

 

[taz'smum]

And if the answer is no, what will the Russian Federation pay for? As far as I can tell, if the ban is affirmed on appeal, Russian skaters won't be representing their country at ISU events for the next four years; they will be competing as individuals. Will FSFR pay for these athletes to travel to Worlds, Europeans, the Grand Prix, etc.? What about helping with other training expenses? These questions will be the same across all Olympic sports.

Gonna be a lot of early retirements then

Maybe Russia will put the funding into younger athletes who will be coming through post the ban

 

[Vagabond]

Maybe Russia will put the funding into younger athletes who will be coming through post the ban

If Russia doesn't fund its younger athletes (and I am referring to athletes in all Olympic sports), many of them choose to compete for other federations. Even if it does fund them, however, if it doesn't start handing over data to WADA as required and stop state sponsored doping, all that funding will be for naught, as the IOC may impose yet more severe measures.

 

[thvu]

People keep talking about "adults making informed decisions." Let's be real. 99.9% of people lack the education to make an informed decision, which is why experts should be making these decisions.

For the vast majority, and I mean VAST, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make an informed decision in regards to CRUD. The people who preach this are making an inherently intellectually dishonest argument.

 

[Lemonade20]

I know there’s been chatter of using past results (ie pre 2020) to determine placing, but there are so many other factors not being considered. What about the new & upcoming skaters who haven’t had a chance yet to skate? Or those who “earned“ a spot earlier but since retired/can’t travel?

I would rather see all the countries start fresh as this year is definitely not the year to determine who gets to compete at the Olympics. I’m hoping ISU will realize that and come up with something better than forcing everyone to try and come together in one country. It’s not happening within the next few months.

 

[Colonel Green]

I know there’s been chatter of using past results (ie pre 2020) to determine placing, but there are so many other factors not being considered. What about the new & upcoming skaters who haven’t had a chance yet to skate? Or those who “earned“ a spot earlier but since retired/can’t travel?

My suggestion was a combination of older results (in lieu of Worlds) combined with the more traditional Nebelhorn qualifier for the remainder.

In the men’s event, for instance, 24 spots based on 2019/20 world standings and the remaining six from the qualifier contest (and countries that already have spots cannot gain more this way, as usual).

 

[ballettmaus]

Of course you can get travel insurance, it's just going to be more costly. I would imagine that competitive athletes don't get standard insurance anyway.

Which would make it all the more difficult, I imagine.
I was on travel insurance when I moved to the US, it ran out this past summer, I tried to get a new one and had trouble finding one because the majority had excluded insuring anyone in the US due to the uncontrolled p*ndemic.

 

[allezfred]

Sweden is barring Canadian citizens at the moment. The current ban is until December 22, but does anyone really expect it not to be extended?

Follow up to this. Ordinary Canadian citizens are not able to enter Sweden at the moment, but an exemption would enable athletes, officials and coaches from Canada to enter Sweden to compete at Worlds if it goes ahead.

From the Swedish Police Agency website:

Travel to and stay in Sweden | The Swedish Police Authority

tinyurl.com

Exemption will also be made for the following cateogries:

Foreigners who are coming to Sweden to study.
Highly skilled professionals, if the job can not be postponed or be done remotely.
Participants or necessary support staff in international professional athletic events.

 

[overedge]

I would read "professional" as referring to professional sports, like soccer/football. Worlds may not qualify because the ISU doesn't regulate a professional sport.

 

[allezfred]

I would read "professional" as referring to professional sports, like soccer/football. Worlds may not qualify because the ISU doesn't regulate a professional sport.

I guess you could read it like that, but I am going to take a guess that a World Championship taking place at one of the premier arenas in Sweden’s capital and backed by the city government is going to be deemed a professional athletic event. There is prize money involved after all.

 

[kwanfan1818]

While the ISU is a closed system and the federation of record, it is no longer an organization enforcing amateurism.