ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

manhn

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Why is this different from tennis or golf?

I thought you can get US college scholarships for tennis and golf? Also, based on movies (and my own life, specifically golf which I suck at), those sports are great at hobnobbing.
 

starrynight

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This is why I prefer the term elite to the term professional: it speaks to standard of performance, not source of income.

This is a great distinction.

Many Olympic sports are extremely elite but are absolute money wastes from a profit perspective. In the sense of no one would choose to do them as a money making venture.

I do think that after the hits the Olympic movement will suffer as a result of ‘rona, the money drain of these sports is going to become a big headache for a lot of countries in trying to fund sports.
 

kwanfan1818

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I thought you can get US college scholarships for tennis and golf? Also, based on movies (and my own life, specifically golf which I suck at), those sports are great at hobnobbing.
I think you can for skating, too, although not nearly the same number. There are college synchro teams, but I'm not sure whether there are teams of the other disciplines, similar to the team event.
 

Sylvia

Off season is club competition season!
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Synchronized skating is a varsity sport at Miami [University in Ohio], but there are no scholarships. Miami covers travel expenses, a pair of skates every two years for each skater, one dress, and ice time. But there is no scholarship money.
Collegiate skating is a club level sport at universities in the U.S.:
U.S. Figure Skating recently started an Instagram account for collegiate skaters & programs: https://www.instagram.com/uscollegiateskating/
 

tony

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This is a great distinction.

Many Olympic sports are extremely elite but are absolute money wastes from a profit perspective. In the sense of no one would choose to do them as a money making venture.

I do think that after the hits the Olympic movement will suffer as a result of ‘rona, the money drain of these sports is going to become a big headache for a lot of countries in trying to fund sports.
I like the word elite, but I don't agree with you that everything is a complete money waste. Getting to the international level (or not even that far) gives skaters great opportunity to be able to coach with pretty serious lesson prices should they want to do it. They can also stay involved in the sport in choreographing or building off-ice programs, cutting music, etc. And PLENTY do this even while they are skating.

So to try to say that it's a complete money loss and once it's done, it's done-- that's not really true at all. And this is steady across many/most hobbies, I'd imagine. If you take years and years of piano lessons, you would likely have the skill to be able to give private lessons, etc.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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If the ISU says Worlds is on, I'm sure they've discussed the matter with the Swedish authorities and worked out details accordingly. and that works for me. Same with Europeans. And, if they decided it would only be Europeans at Worlds, that works for me as well. I'll watch whoever skates and be happy about it.
 

Vagabond

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If you need another example, let’s look at the PGA. Look up what the P means, and then look up what the golfers who do not make the cut earn in most Majors.

Once again, you and some of the other posters are more than free to look into the linguistics of whatever you want, but you have another sport in which the governing body is called Professional Golfers Association and as I pointed out, if a highly-ranked golfer does not make the cut in the US Open or many other elite events, they are making zero money for the event.
I did look up the PGA (on Wikipedia) and confirmed what I thought I remembered, namely that there are two separate entities, The PGA Tour and the Professional Golfers' Association of America.

As it turns out, the "P" in PGA Tour stands for nothing. It's just the first of three letters. The PGA Tour doesn't organize the U.S. Open, the Masters, the Ryder Cup, or even the PGA Championship!

The United States Golf Association organizes the U.S. Open, which is "open" to both professionals and amateurs.

The Professional Golfers' Association of America does organize the PGA Championship, but it has about 29,000 members, who are generally professional golf instructors, coaches, administrators, and the like.

This isn't to say that OES are or are not professionals. I asked because I was interested in other people's points of view. (And I'd be interested to know what the Swedish language version of the webpage to which @allezfred posted says.)

People can disagree with each other, and you haven't proved your point. I do, however, understand your point of view.
 

Japanfan

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I don't think of child actors as professional actors, actually. They mostly play themselves in an appealing or charismatic way.
 

tony

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I did look up the PGA (on Wikipedia) and confirmed what I thought I remembered, namely that there are two separate entities, The PGA Tour and the Professional Golfers' Association of America.

As it turns out, the "P" in PGA Tour stands for nothing. It's just the first of three letters. The PGA Tour doesn't organize the U.S. Open, the Masters, the Ryder Cup, or even the PGA Championship!

The United States Golf Association organizes the U.S. Open, which is "open" to both professionals and amateurs.

The Professional Golfers' Association of America does organize the PGA Championship, but it has about 29,000 members, who are generally professional golf instructors, coaches, administrators, and the like.

This isn't to say that OES are or are not professionals. I asked because I was interested in other people's points of view. (And I'd be interested to know what the Swedish language version of the webpage to which @allezfred posted says.)

People can disagree with each other, and you haven't proved your point. I do, however, understand your point of view.
I looked into it and the PGA Tour stemmed from the PGA. So I'll agree with you on that one that there is no real correlation between the two. As far as who organizes it: it's the same in skating. The host countries organize the Grand Prix events, for example, and even get to invite the judges of their choosing-- or at least they used to within the very recent past.

But put it this way: The LPGA is 100% the Ladies Professional Golf Association and it runs the LPGA Tour. The same thing applies in the events there, regardless of who is running them. If you don't make the cut in many (or even most) events, you are not paid. Not one dollar. While many golfers get sponsorship opportunities, remember many skaters are also getting smaller sponsorship opportunities in the way of clothing or boots or blades.

I'm going to repeat what I said upthread so I can hear how much you don't like it again: skaters have to be at a level competent enough to pass the minimum TES. You can't go out and do double jumps and qualify to Europeans or especially Worlds. Remember, our argument here is about WORLDS. Not the Hungarian Christmas Trophy or whatever it's called. You likely won't get away with mediocre to low level elements across the board with little to no positive GOE. These skaters are proficient enough in what they are doing. In golf, the way into the 'big' events is by a good showing either in q-school type scenario (correct me here because I don't keep up with golf) or throughout a series of lower-level events throughout a season.

So in regards to an LPGA event, with Professional in the title, the people cut in early rounds, who are comparable to OES skaters not making the LP on a bad day for sake of this argument, are making no money, either.

Skating is a premiere Olympic event and actually has lower TES standards than Worlds. To think that they aren't professional at the World Championship level because of one version of a definition or because some people here are remembering back to the distinction made in the 80s and 90s is baffling.

99% of elite, medal-winning gymnasts cannot do what Simone Biles does yet they are still beyond proficient in their sport. Are we really trying to think that because she's so far ahead, she's the equivalent of Chen, Hanyu, Trusova, and Shcherbakova and everyone else competing is at OES level, even at Worlds? It just makes no sense to me.

ETA because now I'm searching around- seems like within the gymnastics community, the choice is to either compete in NCAA or, by their words, 'go pro'-- which is national and international-level competition that mirrors skating.
 
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tony

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I don't think of child actors as professional actors, actually. They mostly play themselves in an appealing or charismatic way.
But this is what I don't get with this thread and these comments. So even though Tara Lipinski and Oksana Baiul both won the Olympics and turned 'professional', they still weren't professionals because they were teenagers? But Lily Lee and Charlene Wong (@Brenda_Bottems ) were, simply because they got invited to one pro event two times?

Or are you throwing this figure skating determination out and trying to say that someone has to go through schooling or a certain amount of years of whatever it is, under your own discretion, before they can be considered as such?

Some kids have been actors for 15 years by the time they turn 18. Some people get cast off the street and win a bunch of awards and show up in all the films for a few years.
 

Theatregirl1122

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I don't think of child actors as professional actors, actually. They mostly play themselves in an appealing or charismatic way.

So do many adults who are professional actors. What does that have to do with anything?

(And that being said, there are actors under 18 who have put in incredible performances and this is an unfair characterization of their work.)
 

AxelAnnie

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So do many adults who are professional actors. What does that have to do with anything?

(And that being said, there are actors under 18 who have put in incredible performances and this is an unfair characterization of their work.)
Oh. Take a second look. Some children actors were professionals. Dakota Fanning in "I am Sam" comes to mind as well as Freddie Highmore "August Rush" And the best being Shirley Temple. My uncle directed many of her movies. She was always prepared, even knew other people's lines if they forgot them. Hit her marks, delivered her lines. Look at some of the dramas she did. Most of her movies were light and happy. Mad America smile in the midst of the Great Depression. "The Little Princess" was quite a dramatic performance.
 

tony

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Oh. Take a second look. Some children actors were professionals. Dakota Fanning in "I am Sam" comes to mind as well as Freddie Highmore "August Rush" And the best being Shirley Temple. My uncle directed many of her movies. She was always prepared, even knew other people's lines if they forgot them. Hit her marks, delivered her lines. Look at some of the dramas she did. Most of her movies were light and happy. Mad America smile in the midst of the Great Depression. "The Little Princess" was quite a dramatic performance.
Take a second look at what you quoted.
Given that what makes someone a professional will have no bearing on whether Worlds or any other skating competition will be held, I don't get it either ;)
True that. Our interpretations of words mean exactly zero! But what fun is FSU without bickering? :)
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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Oh. Take a second look. Some children actors were professionals. Dakota Fanning in "I am Sam" comes to mind as well as Freddie Highmore "August Rush" And the best being Shirley Temple. My uncle directed many of her movies. She was always prepared, even knew other people's lines if they forgot them. Hit her marks, delivered her lines. Look at some of the dramas she did. Most of her movies were light and happy. Mad America smile in the midst of the Great Depression. "The Little Princess" was quite a dramatic performance.
I love the story Ann Blythe tells about how a lot of actresses in her age group were really keen to play the plum role of Veda in the film nor classic, Mildred Pierce. One star in particular, really wanted the role. I can only imagine that had she got it, what a career changer it could have been for Shirley Temple.
 

MsZem

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True that. Our interpretations of words mean exactly zero! But what fun is FSU without bickering? :)
But it's such a boring thing to bicker about! No coffee, no yogurt. No quads or Michelle Kwan. Though I am still holding out hope for the Kween, at least.
 

tony

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But it's such a boring thing to bicker about! No coffee, no yogurt. No quads or Michelle Kwan. Though I am still holding out hope for the Kween, at least.
Somehow, somewhere, someone will feel that Kwan was a total amateur amongst the Lipinski and Hughes-level professionals of the sport. 👼🏻 but yes, I agree. Boring.

I’m hoping there is a Worlds and if there isn’t, that the ISU is coming up with an Olympic qualifying plan that puts some excitement into the early-season competitions next year.
 

Marco

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Whether there will be Worlds in 2021 or not, I hope there is some sort of plan to clarify Olympic qualification. For example, I think it is quite unfair for Canada to not be able to fight and qualify for multiple spots for the Olympics (or next Worlds) simply because they cannot be at Sweden. I don't think using 2020 World spots are a lot better but at least this makes more sense.
 

Bigbird

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Whether there will be Worlds in 2021 or not, I hope there is some sort of plan to clarify Olympic qualification. For example, I think it is quite unfair for Canada to not be able to fight and qualify for multiple spots for the Olympics (or next Worlds) simply because they cannot be at Sweden. I don't think using 2020 World spots are a lot better but at least this makes more sense.
Everything considering, also given that some persons who contract XYZ could be long haulers, and that vaccines will become available to most by the fall, it might be best to cancel and create alternative pathways to qualify for the OG.
 

MsZem

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Whether there will be Worlds in 2021 or not, I hope there is some sort of plan to clarify Olympic qualification. For example, I think it is quite unfair for Canada to not be able to fight and qualify for multiple spots for the Olympics (or next Worlds) simply because they cannot be at Sweden. I don't think using 2020 World spots are a lot better but at least this makes more sense.
Canada can send a team to Worlds so long as that event is held; if they choose not to, that's their decision. Canadian skaters would still be able to skate at the same fall qualifier is anyone else.
 

Lemonade20

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Figure skating doesn’t command the same respect as other sports like golfing, but I like to think of athletes as being elite (ie competitive). Professional is a more grey area for me, some skaters do go on to have a successful post-competitive career (seminars, skating shows, etc). But calling them professional implies they are better than elite skaters. Not sure if it’s the right term.
 

marbri

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I shudder at the thought the kid who played Damien was portraying a more appealing and charming version of himself :p Or Macaulay Culkin in The Good Son, although it does make me have sympathy and understanding for what he put poor Joe Pesci through :(
 

Theatregirl1122

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Oh. Take a second look. Some children actors were professionals. Dakota Fanning in "I am Sam" comes to mind as well as Freddie Highmore "August Rush" And the best being Shirley Temple. My uncle directed many of her movies. She was always prepared, even knew other people's lines if they forgot them. Hit her marks, delivered her lines. Look at some of the dramas she did. Most of her movies were light and happy. Mad America smile in the midst of the Great Depression. "The Little Princess" was quite a dramatic performance.
Did you read my post for understanding at all?
 

kwanfan1818

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But calling them professional implies they are better than elite skaters.
That's another slippery slope, because many college athletes, whose careers are controlled by the NCAA -- as tied to amateurism as Brundage because $$$ -- are as able as many paid players on professional teams, especially in men's and women's basketball and hockey, baseball, and football, and there are usually golfers and tennis players, for example, who are as strong as professional golfers and tennis players.
 

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