ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

[overedge]

While the ISU is a closed system and the federation of record, it is no longer an organization enforcing amateurism.

I realize that, but the ISU still makes distinctions between eligible and ineligible athletes, and the eligible skaters aren't paid to skate or train, as they would if they were in professional soccer, baseball, hockey, etc. Getting prize money for winning the event is not the same as being paid a salary to be an athlete.

 

[skatingguy]

I realize that, but the ISU still makes distinctions between eligible and ineligible athletes, and the eligible skaters aren't paid to skate or train, as they would if they were in professional soccer, baseball, hockey, etc. Getting prize money for winning the event is not the same as being paid a salary to be an athlete.

But skaters receive money from many sources. They are more like golfers or tennis players, just on a smaller economic scale, in that they earn based on results, but in addition receive money from sponsors, & federations. The distinction between eligible & ineligible is about whether a skater can compete in ISU events, not whether they are amateur or professional.

 

[allezfred]

But skaters receive money from many sources. They are more like golfers or tennis players, just on a smaller economic scale, in that they earn based on results, but in addition receive money from sponsors, & federations. The distinction between eligible & ineligible is about whether a skater can compete in ISU events, not whether they are amateur or professional.

This. But I guess @overedge is going to continue to argue that Hanyu and other skaters in Japan and Russia are all amateurs despite all their massive endorsement deals from major companies.

 

[overedge]

This. But I guess @overedge is going to continue to argue that Hanyu and other skaters in Japan and Russia are all amateurs despite all their massive endorsement deals from major companies.

Don't put words in my mouth, because I have not argued that. And don't be an *ss by implying that I don't know the difference between amateurs and professional athletes.

Being paid by a sponsor for endorsements is not the same as being paid a salary by a professional sports organization to be a full-time athlete. If you want to keep snarking about the difference, go find someone else to do it with.

 

[Vagabond]

Even if we all agree that Hanyu and other top skaters from Japan and Russia are professionals, is the same true of people like Igor Beznichenko and Kyara van Tiel, both of whom competed at the 2019 World Championships? Serious question.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Is the argument that people are trying to make that Sweden is going to exclude some or most of the athletes eligible for the world championships they will have, in this scenario, decided to host despite the pandemic based on the desire to apply an overly pedantic interpretation to their own rules? That seems asinine.

 

[tony]

Even if we all agree that Hanyu and other top skaters from Japan and Russia are professionals, is the same true of people like Igor Beznichenko and Kyara van Tiel, both of whom competed at the 2019 World Championships? Serious question.

They are skaters that needed to qualify to the event possibly within their own nations and by hitting a minimum technical score, which shows a mastery of the sport that most people will never have. Yes, I think they are professional in that sense. There are Major Leaguers that sit on the bench the entire season. There are third-string quarterbacks on some football teams that will never, ever play unless the two QBs in front of them get injured or sick.

But then again, the poster arguing the logistics of the wording once said that every country should have one entry to Worlds regardless of skill level, even when I asked about the instance of me skating for Peru and doing 2T, 2S, and maybe a 2F. I doubt she would call me a pro

 

[Vagabond]

There are Major Leaguers that sit on the bench the entire season.

Major League Baseball players who sit on the bench the entire season get paid by their teams to do so.

I don't think that OES who finish last in the Short Program at Worlds or Euros are getting paid by anyone to compete there or elsewhere, but perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[tony]

Major League Baseball players who sit on the bench the entire season get paid by their teams to do so.

I don't think that OES who finish last in the Short Program at Worlds or Euros are getting paid by anyone to compete there or elsewhere, but perhaps I am mistaken.

Don’t be facetious. You know the answer to that.

The ISU has long-determined that there is no longer a professional versus amateur thing and it really was only used for the sake of athletes having potential to be paid by competing, but that’s been out the window since what, 1995 or so with the start of the Champions Series? It’s been called eligible versus ineligible forever.

If you need another example, let’s look at the PGA. Look up what the P means, and then look up what the golfers who do not make the cut earn in most Majors.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Settle down now,boys.

-BB

 

[Aerobicidal]

Settle down now,boys.

-BB

Amen! I haven't seen this level of acrimony on FSU since Ross Miner didn't make the Olympics Tonya won Worst Cooks Kurt Browning had an affair Katia Gordeeva became a seasoned widow Galustyan withdrew from Rostelecom after the SP.

 

[kwanfan1818]

As @skatingguy noted above, professional golfers and tennis players (as well as bowlers) do not earn salaries: they play for prize money, and some earn money from coaching, being pros, etc. as well as from endorsements And less than 500 pro tennis players (ETA: of each gender) earn more in prize money than they have to spend in any given year on travel, coaching, clothes, medical/physical therapy, health insurance, gym fees, etc. The rest from endorsements, from their parents, on their credit cards.

Even where teams pay salaries, the leagues don't, and just as the ISU doesn't, the Russian Federation does pay for elite skaters to train plus living expenses and small salaries.

 

[starrynight]

The distinction of ‘professional’ sports is probably there to stop some Swedes organising a backyard croquet championship and inviting their Canadian relatives to ‘compete’ under the exemption.

 

[Miezekatze]

In Germany at the moment only professional sports events are allowed (both training and competition, amateur athletes can't even train normally). There's also quarantine exemptions for professional athletes.

Therefor the NRW Trophy must definitely have counted as a professional sports event (I was a tiny bit amused about that when watching the Ladies LP ) , or it wouldn't have happened.

I'm sure a World Championship is absolutely a professional sports event in any country. There are tons of other "niche" sports going on at the moment in Europe.

I'd guess the distinction is mostly made by whether it's organized by a professional federation here, except for in sports that REALLY still have a distinction between professional and amateur leagues like soccer.

 

[allezfred]

Don't put words in my mouth, because I have not argued that. And don't be an *ss by implying that I don't know the difference between amateurs and professional athletes.

I’m sorry, but it seemed from your post that you thought you were Avery Brundage and this was 1968. It’s 2020. If you are an elite athlete in a sport like figure skating, it’s your full-time job.

Being paid by a sponsor for endorsements is not the same as being paid a salary by a professional sports organization to be a full-time athlete. If you want to keep snarking about the difference, go find someone else to do it with.

That’s kind of like arguing that if you work for a company you are professional, but if you work for yourself you are an amateur.

Even if we all agree that Hanyu and other top skaters from Japan and Russia are professionals, is the same true of people like Igor Beznichenko and Kyara van Tiel, both of whom competed at the 2019 World Championships? Serious question.

Yes.

 

[Japanfan]

I think the distinction between amateur and professional is different for skating than for other sports. That is, amateur athletes are competing, whereas professionals do shows. Not sure that 'amateur' is the right word for the former - 'competitive' is probably better, or 'elite'. But most athletes do not have a professional career in their sport to move on to after they they have stopped competing.

This doesn't mean that amateur or competitive athletes are not professional athletes, but the word professional just doesn't seem correct. In part because so many elite figure skaters are still teenagers and in school - a profession is generally seen as what one's career is, after graduating from school.

 

[MsZem]

The Swedish police is probably not attuned to the finer distinctions of competitive vs. professional vs. eligible skaters. I think it is safe to assume that the World Figure Skating Championships would be allowed under the current Swedish regulations.

Note: I am not making a prediction as to whether the event will actually take place. Though I am hoping for a Princess Estelle sighting if it does, because she is the best.

 

[tony]

The thing about skating is, just as the cliche goes: the ice is slippery. Kevin Aymoz is most certainly a top skater and he failed to qualify for the free skate at Europeans last year, forget Worlds. Skaters like Kiira Korpi, Sarah Meier, and Nobunari Oda have had disastrous performances at Worlds that didn't even get them into the final rounds. There's always a chance of skaters who completely fall apart at the Olympics, as top contenders, and find themselves outside the top 10-- think Brian Joubert in 2010. Just like... oh I don't know... every other sport there is, things happen and people have bad days. Champion golfers miss the cut in big tournaments all the time. Top tennis seeds sometimes are out in the first round. Top gymnasts have a bad performance early in the week and then don't make the individual all-around. There are favorites in every single sport, and there are dark horses. It doesn't mean the favorites are always going to win, let alone be in the top positions.

ISU Majors have never, ever been a 'pro versus am' or 'legends versus newbies' or whatever type of setup. It's a group of international skaters, who since the inclusion of minimum technical scores, have had to achieve some kind of level of mastery to even get into these events. I can't mind-read, but I'd guess the Professional sport distinction is one that determines it's not some club sport or leisure thing. Anything in the Olympics and people are going to try to argue it's not pro? Well, okay.

And you know what? All three of Igor Reznichenko's Europeans placements were better than what Aymoz did last season-- even if by only one spot or two.

 

[kwanfan1818]

This doesn't mean that amateur or competitive athletes are not professional athletes, but the word professional just doesn't seem correct. In part because so many elite figure skaters are still teenagers and in school - a profession is generally seen as what one's career is, after graduating from school.

Are child actors not professional actors? Child singers with recording contracts?

 

[starrynight]

Although not really relevant to Worlds, it is an interesting question.

I would classify 'professional' as whether one gets paid to compete and train and if being an athlete is financially one's career i.e. one comes out at a profit from skating.

There are certainly salaried skaters in Russia who treat skating as a job. Many of them do. I remember Trankov saying that his skating salary as a teen was almost (or more) lucrative than what his mother was earning at her actual job. Skating would be Hanyu's job.

However, for other athletes, skating is a negative investment where it actually costs them far more money to do than what they could ever earn from it. I would say the vast majority of skaters -- and even those at national podium level or national champion level fall into that category. Where a bit of funding and prize money doesn't even half cover the expenses and their parents pay almost all or the rest.

 

[Bigbird]

Amen! I haven't seen this level of acrimony on FSU since Ross Miner didn't make the Olympics Tonya won Worst Cooks Kurt Browning had an affair Katia Gordeeva became a seasoned widow Galustyan withdrew from Rostelecom after the SP.

There are so many things I wish I could unknow.

 

[Japanfan]

Are child actors not professional actors? Child singers with recording contracts?

Some might say no, they are not.

 

[Japanfan]

I would classify 'professional' as whether one gets paid to compete and train and if being an athlete is financially one's career i.e. one comes out at a profit from skating.

In Canada, SFAIK, only the top five in each discipline get federation funding. Not sure about that - I could be wrong.

But as indicated above, I'm not sure that the word 'professional'. There are a lot of athletes who compete at Canadian Nationals who are not in the top five. Perhaps they have scholarships/funding from Skate Canada or another org. Not sure.

Basically I don't think of any competitive figure skaters as professionals. I think of professionals as those who have moved on from their competitive careers to skate in shows.

 

[Sylvia]

In Canada, SFAIK, only the top five in each discipline get federation funding. Not sure about that - I could be wrong.

It's no longer top 5 for all disciplines: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/skate-canada-names-2020-2021-national-team.107539/ (scroll down to post #10 & below for more info about funding)

ETA:

However, for other athletes, skating is a negative investment where it actually costs them far more money to do than what they could ever earn from it. I would say the vast majority of skaters -- and even those at national podium level or national champion level fall into that category. Where a bit of funding and prize money doesn't even half cover the expenses and their parents pay almost all or the rest.

This. And many skaters coach (if they can) or have other part-time jobs.

 

[kwanfan1818]

However, for other athletes, skating is a negative investment where it actually costs them far more money to do than what they could ever earn from it. I would say the vast majority of skaters -- and even those at national podium level or national champion level fall into that category. Where a bit of funding and prize money doesn't even half cover the expenses and their parents pay almost all or the rest.

Why is this different from tennis or golf?

Some might say no, they are not.

I'm guessing that Tatum O'Neal is looking at her Oscar statuette and laughing.

 

[tony]

Although not really relevant to Worlds, it is an interesting question.

I would classify 'professional' as whether one gets paid to compete and train and if being an athlete is financially one's career i.e. one comes out at a profit from skating.

There are certainly salaried skaters in Russia who treat skating as a job. Many of them do. I remember Trankov saying that his skating salary as a teen was almost (or more) lucrative than what his mother was earning at her actual job. Skating would be Hanyu's job.

However, for other athletes, skating is a negative investment where it actually costs them far more money to do than what they could ever earn from it. I would say the vast majority of skaters -- and even those at national podium level or national champion level fall into that category. Where a bit of funding and prize money doesn't even half cover the expenses and their parents pay almost all or the rest.

Once again, you and some of the other posters are more than free to look into the linguistics of whatever you want, but you have another sport in which the governing body is called Professional Golfers Association and as I pointed out, if a highly-ranked golfer does not make the cut in the US Open or many other elite events, they are making zero money for the event. They may or may not have sponsors at any kind of level. You can say professional means getting paid all you want, but this is not something that is consistent across the board in elite sport. And whether or not they finished school as another poster pointed out? Then what were Lipinski and Baiul when they competed in 'professional' by name events?

There are golfers that get into the tour because of one or two really good showings and then don't do much of anything in terms of top 10s or 20s. But maybe, just maybe, they get lucky one day and have a breakout performance. This is absolutely zero different than tennis or skating, and it's kinda like when Anna Rechnio was 2nd in the short at '98 Worlds or when Peter Liebers made the final group for the LP in Sochi. They were in a group of elite athletes competing at the highest level, and no one expected them to place that high-- but they did it.

If I were to enter the World Series of Poker as a complete newbie and got myself into the earnings bracket by just playing extremely conservatively, would some of you suddenly consider me professional because I'm being paid?

 

[Vagabond]

Goodness, @tony! Not everyone is ever going to see things exactly as you do, and you aren't going to sway minds by being belligerent.

 

[MacMadame]

Some might say no, they are not.

And some may say the moon is made of green cheese. Doesn't make it so.

There is no rational argument that says a professional actor seizes to be one if they happen to be below a certain age.

This entire argument is just so weird. Some of you argued that Jason Brown should be allowed back in Canada to train because it's his job. But now suddenly elite skaters aren't professionals because...

Meanwhile, Worlds keeps being planned for in spite of all your collective doom and gloom.

 

[tony]

Goodness, @tony! Not everyone is ever going to see things exactly as you do, and you aren't going to sway minds by being belligerent.

Give me a break. People on this board disagree constantly about things and you are one of the very first people to either tell people to do their own research via Google, by looking up old threads or previous comments in threads, or just by supposedly knowing all-- yet I'm belligerent. Got it. I am giving examples to better explain why I don't buy the 'well they aren't professionals' argument rather than telling people to do their own work. If you don't like that I'm pointing out my opinion and the fact that the PGA is in fact called the PGA without guaranteed money earnings, then maybe you should have replied above when I directly replied to you?

 

[Orm Irian]

Are child actors not professional actors? Child singers with recording contracts?

They’re certainly treated as such, and some would argue that that’s part of why they’re such a notoriously messed-up bunch.

But in general I think the line between ‘professional’ and ‘amateur’ in sports isn’t hard and fast any more than than the line between ‘professional’ and ‘amateur’ performers is in a world that includes reality television. It’s more of a fuzzy set. I think of the netballers and cricketers here in Australia who were expected to maintain professional - indeed, world-beating - standards of training and play and compete around the world while all holding at minimum part-time jobs, often full-time ones, because they weren’t being treated as professionals in terms of pay, access to facilities and the ability to make sport their full-time job in the way that basketballers and other cricketers were (guess the difference between which sportspersons were treated as professionals in their field and which were treated as hobbyists despite all being equally professional in their approaches to their sports. First two guesses don’t count).

This is why I prefer the term elite to the term professional: it speaks to standard of performance, not source of income.