ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

[aftershocks]

Having said alllllll that, I'm not without ideas.
Mine is about growing the sport with more men (in both viewership and participation) and younger audiences and rebranding it as 'cool'.

How? let the old guard continue to tinker with this outdated skating/scoring paradigm while we build a sub brand of figure skating. The concept is skating XGames, like what happened to skiing and snowboarding.

Traditional (figure) skating is built off the language of skating skills - turns, edges etc. That's the vocabularly of figure skating. Once you master that, you can progress to spins, programs, jumps, etc.

Blow up everything you know about figure skating. Say you're an 8 year old boy (or maybe girl) who loves the ice and has a lot of energy. You watch figure skating. What turns you on about the sport? Patrick's SS? Heck no. You want to be in the air.

So XGames is about getting kids into the air asap. You learn a bunny hop and waltz jump before you learn a rocker. You may be doing backflips before a camel spin. Reverse engineer it starting with 'cool'/difficult stuff first and work backwards. Cartwheel/3T, lateral twist flying sit. Opportunities are endless. Small ramps on the ice to gain air, maybe?

No artistic 'programs'. Footwork, spins etc can all be built in but you bomb around the ice building technical content to energetic music (that you're not interpreting, just adds ambiance). Sort of like snowboard half pipe with music.

For those with interest and talent, you can migrate them to traditional skating if they want to do this. They can catch up by learning their SS and fundamentals later on when they are truly interested. Don't scare them off by forcing this boring stuff on them as they enter the sport. This happened to me taking piano. I wanted to learn to chord to be functional in a band in high school. After two years of doing scales I bailed.

Build at grassroots. Have them entertain during intermission at hockey games and skating events. Eventually build an IJS for this at a national level when it's big enough to integrate fully into the federation. Then develop this part of the sport internationally with a view to making it an Olympic event in 20 years.

That's what I'd do. Stat. Membership/sponsorship/audience/revenue opportunities would be substantial.

As @gkelly and @clairecloutier have already pointed out, it's fine to have ideas about turning the sport of figure skating on it's head, but having young skaters learn 'bunny hops' and 'waltz jumps' before basic skating skills will not address or solve any of the sport's real problems. Mastering SS and control of edges is how one learns to jump correctly and land successfully. I don't understand your emphasis on the need to 'blow up' figure skating through 'reverse engineering' everything we know about figure skating. You seem to be talking about extreme ice skating which is already a grassroots sporting event. With the amount of complex problems traditional figure skating faces at all levels, trying to reinvent the sport without destroying it completely will require a deeper understanding of fs and it's history combined with the skating community joining together to find consensus through patience, research, inclusiveness and good communication.

With the advent of the Freezer Aerial Challenge in Colorado, we already have attempts at infusing more excitement into the sport with strictly jumping contests: https://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/x-games-on-ice


If you're more excited about air action vs figure skating's necessary development of artistry and learning SS, then maybe you might like the extreme sport version of in-line skating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXI6ltBxdbw

Or, extreme sport downhill skating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tso8RD_Onvs

Or, freestyle ice skating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwfa0xEZ0Hw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYFT3mpz04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j_4ODrdO3U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECeIG0YgkYE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4ABUECZKuI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY7lnAEcdus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhBKguQPzS8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbH0_xqR26c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_VDSiNzJ0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB0eu_fwOyc

And there are numerous other videos promoting freestyle ice skating. It's exactly the adrenalin rush 'air unbound' type of thing you seem to be talking about. Get hooked. Knock yourself out. It looks fun and exciting, and I hope this freestyle sporting development on ice grows. One thing to realize though, it's not figure skating. Hey but maybe the downhill skating and freestyle skating promoters can combine with forward thinking people in figure skating to generate ideas that might mutually benefit the promotion of figure skating and the growth of the extreme sport versions of skating on ice.

I personally would love to see synchronized skating be included in the Olympics, but it seems we are still faraway from that happening.

As far as attempting to make fs 'cool,' I think the sport needs to do more to promote the best of what the sport already has: it's skaters, coaches, choreographers, and fans. There needs to be an infusion of life into pro events, shows and television productions, IMO. And bringing everyone with ideas to the table. But I don't think you need to try and change figure skating into something it is not. There are lots of 'cool' things about figure skating. Good leadership is not one of them.

Speaking of air-bound excitement, watch this cool clip from the Rohene Ward-choreographed sp for the new pair of Calalang/Johnson: https://web.stagram.com/p/Bh-CL2Gl6U0

 

[mag]

but having young skaters learn 'bunny hops' and 'waltz jumps' before basic skating skills will not address or solve any of the sport's real problems

Young skaters learn bunny hops and eventually waltz jumps at the same time as learning basic skating skills. It isn’t an either or proposition. Furthermore, bunny hops ARE one of the basic skating skills needed for waltz jumps and then axels. The bunny hop helps skaters learn to get up off the toe.

 

[aftershocks]

Young skaters learn bunny hops and eventually waltz jumps at the same time as learning basic skating skills. It isn’t an either or proposition. Furthermore, bunny hops ARE one of the basic skating skills needed for waltz jumps and then axels. The bunny hop helps skaters learn to get up off the toe.

Yep, of course. Thanks for explaining. It's obviously not a matter of either or. Your explication further reinforces the fact that understanding what the sport is about, and how skaters are taught is necessary before suggesting ill-advised 'blow up' ventures.

 

[Roux]

If you want more technical content, more spectacular jumps and so on, why not just relax the Zayak rules a bit? e.g. 3 triples or quads can be repeated, 1 can be performed 3 times, allow two 3 jump combinations, and so on.

Yes, there’s probably lot of very well meaning and honest people who get into judging, then they find other countries judges are marking up their own skaters and marking down theirs, and before you know it they’re in the whole sorry mess, with no one able to break the circle.

Hm, I don't love allowing that repetition at first glance, but I suppose in theory that could also be counterbalanced by docking the composition. Still have to fix component scoring......

Anyone is *able* to break such a circle, but of course it's not pleasant or easy. That's kind of the meaning of it being a circle.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In the original plan, the ISU wanted to reduce world competition to a single day. Athletes would skate a fifteen second free program consisting of one jump and one spin. #SacrificingArtistryForBudgeting

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

So, if it eventually becomes a two part event with a technical program and an artistic program, does everyone get to do both components. Or, will the competition favour better quad jumpers?

Back in the day, there was a great documentary about Robin Cousins where he talked about how different competition outcomes may have been for him if the short program and free skates were performed before compulsory figures.

 

[Rhino]

[QUOTE="Roux, post: 5355945, member: 71672"

Anyone is *able* to break such a circle, but of course it's not pleasant or easy. That's kind of the meaning of it being a circle. [/QUOTE]

Yes, plus I just hope the ISU is aware of just how serious the situation might be. I’ve done an analysis of all the times judges marked their own skaters at the Olympics and the World Championships.

There are 221 of them and the evidence is incontrovertible. Just to a give a quick example. There were 13 occasions when a judge marked their own skater in the Pairs SP at the Olympics. On all occasions the skater was in the top half of the 9 judges, in fact skewed towards the very top, 8 had their skater in 1st place, 4 2nd and 1 3rd. Even if was just random in the top half the odds of this happening at random are 8,192 to 1 against, and with the skewing it’s even more unlikely. A statistician/journalist could make mincemeat of figure skating judging with these sort of figures.

Hence I just hope there’s someone of significance out there reads these figures and acts. The point about skatingscores.com is that it’s new, whereas before it was just impenetrable protocols. For example I once did an analysis of the Ladies Sochi LP (Adelina still won BTW despite Judge 2’s best efforts), but I could find no evidence of anyone ever converting the protocols into judges scores, but now you have it with skatingscores, and it would be so easy for a statistician/journalist to go to town.

As I say I hope someone of significance reads these figures, doesn’t think it’s the ravings of a madman and acts.

 

[gkelly]

Since the scores are just an average of the whole panel, how would it be if the compatriot judge's scores were just omitted from the average (or replaced by a substitute judge's) so no judge's scores for their own skaters ever counted?

If simple omission, the skaters with judges on the panel would have one fewer judge factored into the average, which might make some mathematical difference at the level of two decimal places, but not a difference anyone could manipulate.

Of course, any judge who seriously wants to try to play math games to help their skaters could still intentionally underscore their skaters' rivals.

 

[Willin]

@gkelly Wasn't that the original intention of removing the high/low score before averaging? Removing any overly biased marks from the country's judge or from a judge trying to lower the skater's rank?
I'd be more interested to see how well this works, and in particular how well this works in regards for certain countries. That is, due to removing the high and low marks, a country would have to make a voting block in order to avoid having their overly high mark thrown out. We might expect that some countries (Russia, US, Canada, China) might be better at making voting blocks than others.

 

[gkelly]

@gkelly Wasn't that the original intention of removing the high/low score before averaging?

I think it's just to remove outliers, for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because a judge makes a mistake on applying GOE rules, or is just using a wider or higher or lower range than the rest of the field.

 

[Rhino]

Since the scores are just an average of the whole panel, how would it be if the compatriot judge's scores were just omitted from the average (or replaced by a substitute judge's) so no judge's scores for their own skaters ever counted?

If simple omission, the skaters with judges on the panel would have one fewer judge factored into the average, which might make some mathematical difference at the level of two decimal places, but not a difference anyone could manipulate.

Of course, any judge who seriously wants to try to play math games to help their skaters could still intentionally underscore their skaters' rivals.

Omitting the compatriot's judges scores and different factoring, essentially divide by 6 and multiply by 7 on a panel where you now take the middle 6 out of 8 scores, would indeed solve the problem of judges marking their own skaters up. I'm sure the slight difference in 2 decimal places would occur, but it would not make a significant difference.

Yes, the vulnerability to marking other skaters down could still occur. That could only be solved by close analysis of the figures after the event, and even then you would have to be very careful that you had examined all the data. For example I'm sure the analysis of data I did re judges marking up their own skaters is correct, but you can't always be sure with marking down. For example in the Ladies Free Skate at the Olympics, the Canadian judge marked Kaetlyn Osmond up (2nd out of 9) and Alina Zagitova and Evgenia Medvedeva 'down' (7th and 8th out of 9). However she also gave Satoko Miyahara a score of 149.14 (2nd out of 9 and before Kaetlyn had skated), hardly the action of a 'corrupt judge'.

However don't get judges to mark their own skater and you have at least removed a lot of the problem, and the judges would be far more aware that the ISU could be 'onto them'.

 

[Seerek]

The Osmond example isn't too bad, since it wasn't just the Canadian judge that gave her a first place ordinal (the Chinese judge also placed her first in the free skate in Pyeongchang).

 

[Rock2]

If you want more technical content, more spectacular jumps and so on, why not just relax the Zayak rules a bit? e.g. 3 triples or quads can be repeated, 1 can be performed 3 times, allow two 3 jump combinations, and so on. All would add to more spectacular performances, maybe attract younger audiences while at the same time not moving that far away from figure skating's roots.

Also add a few seconds while you're at it to the Choreo Seq so you get more spectacular moves in the field. These too would be more attractive to a younger audience than what you get at the moment.

I'm not sure if it's about *more* technical content. I will say I'm in favor of rewarding technical *skill* and being mindful of the balance between Tech and components as you remember that you want to be an Olympic sport.

So, relaxing the Zayak rule wouldn't cut it for me. That doesn't speak to skill, to see one element done 4 times in a competition. I like that part the way it is.
And *spectactular* isn't necessarily the goal although many difficult technical moves are spectacular. As long as they are challenging to learn/difficult.

 

[Rock2]

Hell no! I know how they treat the judges who did not forgive someone or put not those marks that were expected. I do not want to be in this position.

http://fs-gossips.com/ekaterina-bobrova-and-dmitri-soloviev-our-sport-is-very-subjective/

I mentioned this phenonenon in one of my many rants on this subject.
Scoring has become in part guessing what other judges are scoring so you don't end up being an outlier and getting railed for it. This issue causes scoring inertia that drags the numbers away from what actually happened on the ice in worse cases.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Young skaters learn bunny hops and eventually waltz jumps at the same time as learning basic skating skills. It isn’t an either or proposition. Furthermore, bunny hops ARE one of the basic skating skills needed for waltz jumps and then axels. The bunny hop helps skaters learn to get up off the toe.

I think all senior skaters from now on need to be judged on incorporation of bunny hops and shoot the ducks as a compulsory move in programs. If it isn't done the skater gets marked down by 3 points.

 

[Vagabond]

Especially in pairs.

 

[Willin]

@Aussie Willy That actually would be pretty interesting - I doubt many skaters at the Senior level could still do a good shot the duck. And bunny hops? They usually look pretty awful because literally no one works on them past those beginning level.
But a good bunny hop is never a bad thing. Hydroblades of Jason Brown's quality are also crowdpleasers. Sometimes it feels like skaters spend so much effort on stuffing everything hard in that they ignore how effective some of that simpler stuff can be.

 

[ZilphaK]

@Aussie Willy That actually would be pretty interesting - I doubt many skaters at the Senior level could still do a good shot the duck. And bunny hops? They usually look pretty awful because literally no one works on them past those beginning level.
But a good bunny hop is never a bad thing. Hydroblades of Jason Brown's quality are also crowdpleasers. Sometimes it feels like skaters spend so much effort on stuffing everything hard in that they ignore how effective some of that simpler stuff can be.

I sometimes teach learn to skate. As an extra at the end of class, the kids learn shoot the ducks. Some kids dig them. Some kids hate them. When kids whine and say, "Why do I have to learn this?" I explain about building muscle strength. I call my daughter over to do a variety of sit spins, up and down, up and down, and say, "How strong do you think her leg muscles are to be able to do that?" And they all go, "Ohhhhhhhhhh!" For the hockey players, I remind them how low in his knees Crosby skates, and how shoot the ducks will help them win a Stanley Cup.

The "boring" and basic stuff in Learn To Skate is always such a hard sell for many kids. They want to jump, not practice backward one foot glides. Again, call over a higher level skater to do a flip, and that's why you need three turns or mohawks. Do a double lutz with a long run out, and that's why you need to be able to glide on one foot. It's amazing how many kids need to relearn basics to learn jumps and spins because they were rushed through the basics to get to the "good stuff."

 

[ZilphaK]

@Aussie Willy That actually would be pretty interesting - I doubt many skaters at the Senior level could still do a good shot the duck. And bunny hops? They usually look pretty awful because literally no one works on them past those beginning level.
But a good bunny hop is never a bad thing. Hydroblades of Jason Brown's quality are also crowdpleasers. Sometimes it feels like skaters spend so much effort on stuffing everything hard in that they ignore how effective some of that simpler stuff can be.

As another note, we generally see kids struggling with triple toe because they've been putting a double loop on the end of every jump for a few years to get higher points in combos. Double toe isn't trained as much. If I were Queen of USFSA, I'd make triple toe a bonus jump in Juvenile or a must-have jump (3t or 2t) for Intermediate short.

 

[mag]

As another note, we generally see kids struggling with triple toe because they've been putting a double loop on the end of every jump for a few years to get higher points in combos. Double toe isn't trained as much. If I were Queen of USFSA, I'd make triple toe a bonus jump in Juvenile or a must-have jump (3t or 2t) for Intermediate short.

BC Section had the opposite problem where kids only put toes on the end of things. Now in the Lower levels kids are required to have one combo ending with a loop and one a toe. I believe they are also required to have one of each kind of jump in their program. If you don’t have the double, you do a single. Making the full range a requirement at the lower levels forces coaches to make sure that kids are developing a strong foundation rather than taking short cuts that give great results in Star 5 or Pre Juv, but hold Skaters back when they get to Novice.

 

[missing]

There's an article by Philip Hersh at icenetwork.com where coaches discuss raising the minimum age for senior skaters.

 

[clairecloutier]

The agenda for the June ISU Congress has been published. It's a 135-page list of proposals that I think the ISU will be voting on in June.

As Phil Hersh noted in his article about raising age limits, countries may still submit urgent proposals up to 3 weeks before the Congress.

 

[Aussie Willy]

The "boring" and basic stuff in Learn To Skate is always such a hard sell for many kids. They want to jump, not practice backward one foot glides. Again, call over a higher level skater to do a flip, and that's why you need three turns or mohawks. Do a double lutz with a long run out, and that's why you need to be able to glide on one foot. It's amazing how many kids need to relearn basics to learn jumps and spins because they were rushed through the basics to get to the "good stuff."

It is very interesting watching skater development as a judge. I have seen kids who struggle because they just want to jump and spin and ignore good basic skating skills. Then they complain that they don't do well in competitions.

I had one parent who commented to me about how she wished her daughter would pay more attention to the basics. Her daughter had asked her mum about if myself as a judge would give her feedback and her mum said of course I would. But then she added she needed to be prepared to hear me say stuff like needing to work on basics. The kid didn't want to hear it so didn't ask for feedback. We actually both laughed.

 

[Tinami Amori]

There's an article by Philip Hersh at icenetwork.com where coaches discuss raising the minimum age for senior skaters.

Since the article is listed in 2 topics, i have to repeat my reply.

oh, i see.... all those who can not get their girls to medal lately want the "age increase" because their girls now can't compete with Eteri's girls.... jealousy is a Deadly Sin....

 

[missing]

Since you posted the same thing in 2 topics, i have to repeat my reply.

oh, i see.... all those who can not get their girls to medal lately want the "age increase" because their girls now can't compete with Eteri's girls.... jealousy is a Deadly Sin....

I don't disagree with your assessment, but I'm pretty sure I only posted the link once.

 

[Debbie S]

There's an article by Philip Hersh at icenetwork.com where coaches discuss raising the minimum age for senior skaters.

If the goal is to discourage 13-year-olds from practicing 3A's and quads, it's not going to happen. Skaters will still practice the jumps. Most coaches I've talked to feel that if a skater doesn't have their triples (at least through lutz) by age 15, they won't likely get them. They'll still be pushing their kids to get the triples and start the quads (just like Orser has pushed his 10-year-old...somewhat hypocritical of him to support this, IMO).

 

[Tinami Amori]

I don't disagree with your assessment, but I'm pretty sure I only posted the link once.

You are right! sorry, another poster copied your link into Russian topic, i corrected my post.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

There's an article by Philip Hersh at icenetwork.com where coaches discuss raising the minimum age for senior skaters.

YASSSSSSS, 18 and over please!!!!!!

Its beyone time to let juniors be juniors and seniors be seniors.

In most (not all) countries at 15 you can't vote, drink, drive, sign a lease, sign a contract and on and on. Let juniors be juniors. And especially in gymnastics!!! Um-kay?

Best suggestion I heard since Candy Bergen took my advice to return to "Murphy Brown."

 

[mag]

If the goal is to discourage 13-year-olds from practicing 3A's and quads, it's not going to happen. Skaters will still practice the jumps. Most coaches I've talked to feel that if a skater doesn't have their triples (at least through lutz) by age 15, they won't likely get them. They'll still be pushing their kids to get the triples and start the quads (just like Orser has pushed his 10-year-old...somewhat hypocritical of him to support this, IMO).

First, if the age was raised to 18 it would be interesting to see if the pool of competitive seniors increased. IMHO there is no reason why skaters can’t get triples after 15 other than the fact that ones who don’t have them tend to be written off by their federation, coaches, and parents. It seems acceptable for men to be working on 3A’s and quads into their 20’s, but somehow women can’t work on triples? Second, Orser is not being hypocritical. He is training his skaters within the existing system. What else would you have him do? Other coaches quoted in the article are also training the jumps early. Are they too hypocritical?

 

[VGThuy]

Outside of the obvious reason that Tinami touched upon, I do wonder if some in skating are cognizant about the appearance of a sport where young teenage women are dominating and end up unable to sustain that for a longer career and get "thrown away" for the next hot young teenage woman.