ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

Sort of. Let me reconcile scoring system and star power.

Everyone more or less knew skating was subjective and a popularity contest...and even that fixes were in. But no one really complained because for the most part the 'fixes' were based on who was already popular. That's how 6.0 worked. ISU incubated the biggest stars based on both talent and appeal and you saw those skaters all over the posters and on the podium for a full cycle, culminating with Olympic coronation. Audiences didn't complain because the popular ones usually won with a few exceptions that were obvious on the ice.

In addition, the skating powers historically had their own domains. Russia had pairs and then dance. US, Canada, GB had the men. USA and Germany had ladies. There wasn't much encroaching on each other's turf, so each country was able to incubate and graduate its own stars to be ambassadors of the sport.

ISU got rid of figures in part because it was costly and not a draw, but also to weed out skaters with strong skating skills but no showmanship. A few instances of those guys winning events was enough to turn the ISU off and cue the rule change.

In the early 90s the cozy little paradigm started to shift. Russian and Ukranian men got good. Asia started to enter the scene. The west discovered dance. The world order was getting messed up and we saw how the 2002 pairs event was the culmination of attempts to defend historical turf.

IJS was the right ethical idea, but exacerbated the problems that were percolating behind the scenes. It made scoring a bit more subjective such that many more skaters had a chance to win, including those who were not audience favorites. In the old days there wasn't that much complaining that people were winning who weren't artistic or strong performers. Now we see it a lot. Audience favorites don't always win like they used to. Viewers can no longer reconcile the scoring to what they see, and now they are turned off. Look at Adam and Caro. Lots to like about both, but no one really cares that their technical is of junior worlds quality. People think they should be world champs if they go clean.

For better or worse, ISU is working its way back to the old days by reducing base tech values and increasing the impact of GoE and PCS, the subjective parts of judging where there is no accountability. ISU and the panels will now have more opportunity to place the athletes at the top of the podium that they think will do the most for the sport.

We're headed back to 6.0 to reap the benefits of that era...but will cloak this agenda in a scoring system with ever more fake objectivity.
Great post!

Tbh, at this point, I would like to see a clean slate, an eventual overhaul, something very radical and very different would be welcomed. The only problem is the majority favor remaining in comfortable places with minimal adjustment. Think of it like, or compare it to, relocating… Many people dislike moving from their nest, their comfort zone. The same reasoning could apply to making changes in the sport, especially this one, but I feel change is healthy, reasonable and necessary.

As the sport continues to grow, technically and otherwise, despite recent attempts to set it back to another era, a relevant scoring system should be introduced with the goal of assisting the sport in proceeding forward, not regressing backward.

I’ve never been a fan of what I see as the ongoing, shameless practice and mentality of using and abusing a continuing desire to have a pecking order in this sport. I think it is a complete insult to the fan base to suggest that two or three skaters, at most, are the only skaters that can be considered for an Olympic or world title, etc. Or, as it goes, have any business winning them. It’s B.S., and they know it.

Outside influence directs and dictates more than it should be allowed. It is unfortunate that commercialism has taken such a toll on the sport. IMHO.
 
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There's just so much to unpack there, @Weve3 ....and you are making the right observations IMHO.
I'm not typically a fatalist, but I do believe skating will be screwed for(literally)ever. There are just too many opposing forces that skating will wrestle with for eternity, such that it will swing in different directions and never fully satisfy all. And not only satisfy, but turn off:

* value of tech vs artistry
* subjective vs objective scoring and the extent to which 'judgment' should direct results
* fanbase is divided; some have a bias toward artistic clean skates, others want to see the * sport * push itself via tech development
* does the sport go for the money that comes with incubating starpower and developing the aspects of skating that builds audiences or do you say to heck with the money and use sporting integrity as your sole guide?
* Can literally anyone win if they have the ability or do they have to wait their turn in the pecking order?

One irony I'll point out. Many people here assert that it's the artistry that pulls in audiences and therefore skating should honor this direction. I would argue that artistry probably caters to the current audience more (women, older, gay). The current audience size is very middle of the pack, larger than more obscure winter sports but smaller than major sports by a long shot. If skating REALLY wants to build audiences, it has to swing hard into the direction of sporting entertainment to pull in the money through men and younger audiences. Sports is much more lucrative than art. If we're uncertain, let's look into and compare the size of salaries and TV contracts for performing arts/artists vs sports/athletes such as those in soccer and baseball. Yes, I will say that for skating to REALLY grow it will need to head in a direction that turns off 80% of the people on these boards. #RIP
Who's going to make that call?

The last piece that's missing to me that is not discussed is the sport's ability to regulate itself. How does it ensure the results continue to be correct according to strict interpretation of the rulebook? And in cases where it's not, how are offenders kept accountable. To me this is the bigger issue that sits at the top, because it seems no matter what the ISU decides in terms of rules, officials have too many options to ignore the rules with no consequences. And both current and potential audiences see right through this.

These are all versions of similar issues but are unique nuances unto themselves. Fans and the establishment alike will continue to wrestle with these matters for eternity.
 
Having said alllllll that, I'm not without ideas.
Mine is about growing the sport with more men (in both viewership and participation) and younger audiences and rebranding it as 'cool'.

How? let the old guard continue to tinker with this outdated skating/scoring paradigm while we build a sub brand of figure skating. The concept is skating XGames, like what happened to skiing and snowboarding.

Traditional (figure) skating is built off the language of skating skills - turns, edges etc. That's the vocabularly of figure skating. Once you master that, you can progress to spins, programs, jumps, etc.

Blow up everything you know about figure skating. Say you're an 8 year old boy (or maybe girl) who loves the ice and has a lot of energy. You watch figure skating. What turns you on about the sport? Patrick's SS? Heck no. You want to be in the air.

So XGames is about getting kids into the air asap. You learn a bunny hop and waltz jump before you learn a rocker. You may be doing backflips before a camel spin. Reverse engineer it starting with 'cool'/difficult stuff first and work backwards. Cartwheel/3T, lateral twist flying sit. Opportunities are endless. Small ramps on the ice to gain air, maybe?

No artistic 'programs'. Footwork, spins etc can all be built in but you bomb around the ice building technical content to energetic music (that you're not interpreting, just adds ambiance). Sort of like snowboard half pipe with music.

For those with interest and talent, you can migrate them to traditional skating if they want to do this. They can catch up by learning their SS and fundamentals later on when they are truly interested. Don't scare them off by forcing this boring stuff on them as they enter the sport. This happened to me taking piano. I wanted to learn to chord to be functional in a band in high school. After two years of doing scales I bailed.

Build at grassroots. Have them entertain during intermission at hockey games and skating events. Eventually build an IJS for this at a national level when it's big enough to integrate fully into the federation. Then develop this part of the sport internationally with a view to making it an Olympic event in 20 years.

That's what I'd do. Stat. Membership/sponsorship/audience/revenue opportunities would be substantial.
 
One irony I'll point out. Many people here assert that it's the artistry that pulls in audiences and therefore skating should honor this direction. I would argue that artistry probably caters to the current audience more (women, older, gay). The current audience size is very middle of the pack, larger than more obscure winter sports but smaller than major sports by a long shot. If skating REALLY wants to build audiences, it has to swing hard into the direction of sporting entertainment to pull in the money through men and younger audiences. Sports is much more lucrative than art. If we're uncertain, let's look into and compare the size of salaries and TV contracts for performing arts/artists vs sports/athletes such as those in soccer and baseball. Yes, I will say that for skating to REALLY grow it will need to head in a direction that turns off 80% of the people on these boards. #RIP
Who's going to make that call?

This is an interesting hypothesis, @Rock2, as expressed here and in your following post. But, it is untested. Would a move toward pure athleticism work and bring in more men and younger audiences? Not much evidence for that, as yet anyway. There is a sizable group of younger skating fans out there who are pretty into the technical side of the sport, and well-versed in it, but I'm not sure if that's because it is their true interest or simply because they understand that's what gains points in the current system. I think it's mainly the latter TBH.

As to the concept of "men" (i.e., straight men) getting more into figure skating, I hate to say it, but anecdotally, I just don't know as I see this happening. The sport as it stands today is already more athletic than it's ever been before, with quads and such. But meanwhile men's interest has, if anything, declined further, as far as I can tell. I really wish more men liked figure skating--in part because I'd like to see them be open to their sons getting into it--but it's just a tough thing. Where I live, the reflexive automatic attitude is, You put your son in hockey skates from day 1. Figure skating is seen as something for girls.

Would the introduction of a "stunt skating" type of competitive genre (as mentioned in your second post) make a difference? I kind of doubt it. On the other hand, there's no reason not to try it. As long as it's an addition to figure skating, not a substitute for it.

As much as I'd like to see more men getting into skating, I definitely swing to the side of, Play to your strengths and your core audience first, and grow that as much as you can. Figure skating doesn't necessarily have to be a soccer-sized or football-sized sport. But admittedly, it would be nice if it were more popular than it is right now.


The last piece that's missing to me that is not discussed is the sport's ability to regulate itself. How does it ensure the results continue to be correct according to strict interpretation of the rulebook? And in cases where it's not, how are offenders kept accountable. To me this is the bigger issue that sits at the top, because it seems no matter what the ISU decides in terms of rules, officials have too many options to ignore the rules with no consequences. And both current and potential audiences see right through this.

This is the biggest issue facing the sport, IMO. The rules were changed and arguably modernized with IJS. But the systems for choosing judges and evaluating their performance remain basically as they ever were. That is the area of the sport that currently most needs modernization and a major update.
 
Having said alllllll that, I'm not without ideas.
Mine is about growing the sport with more men (in both viewership and participation) and younger audiences and rebranding it as 'cool'.

How? let the old guard continue to tinker with this outdated skating/scoring paradigm while we build a sub brand of figure skating. The concept is skating XGames, like what happened to skiing and snowboarding.

I would love to see a discipline of figure skating that focuses on "cool" moves, athleticism, daring, and innovation.

I would also love to see a discipline in which artistic coherence in the use of skating skills takes priority over difficulty, especially difficulty not directly based on blade-to-ice technique.

But I would still want to maintain a discipline in which blade-to-ice technical skills and in-air skills and performance skills are more or less balanced in determining results.

Let skaters, and audiences, gravitate toward whichever discipline interests them most, just as some skaters and fans love pair skating and hate ice dance, and others the other way around.

So XGames is about getting kids into the air asap. You learn a bunny hop and waltz jump before you learn a rocker.

That is already the case. In the US learn-to-skate group lesson curriculum, these beginning jumps are taught during basic skills classes (bunny hop) and "pre-freeskate" class (waltz jump).

Rockers are advanced skills that are first required in the US test structure on the novice Moves in the Field test, more formally on the junior test. Most freestyle skaters will be at least working on double jumps before learning rockers, or even brackets (intermediate test). Although they are welcome to include whatever advanced turns they're capable of in their programs at lower levels.

However, some degree of edge control including forward three turns and landing edges is necessary before waltz jumps and single jumps, for safety reasons if nothing else.

I've seen adults who try to teach themselves jumps on ice without having learned the basics of actually skating, and the results are not pretty and not safe for other skater on the ice at the same time.

You may be doing backflips before a camel spin.

No one should be doing backflips on the ice before they have good acrobatic skills including backflips off ice. However, if there is going to be an extreme skating discipline that's all about flashy tricks that can use two feet and don't need to use edges, then sure, gymnastics on ice could include backflips and not be doing classic spin positions at all if that's not important in that discipline.

Small ramps on the ice to gain air, maybe?

Keep in mind that small ramps on the ice would render the ice surface unusable for all other users.

This would require either
*separate practice times during which temporary ramps can be brought on the ice and affixed in a way that would be safe for the extreme skaters, and then removed in a way that would restore the ice to an appropriate condition for hockey, public skating, standard figure skating, speedskating -- with both the addition and the removal taking only a few minutes or else charged as part of the time the extreme skaters are renting the ice

or else

*whole separate facilities used only for acrobatic skating if they have permanent ramps on the ice

Either way, it's going to make access to ramped facilities scarce and expensive for the extreme skaters. If they can figure out a way to convert a standard ice surface into what they want and then back again in a safe and efficient/cost-effective manner, more power to them.

No artistic 'programs'. Footwork, spins etc can all be built in but you bomb around the ice building technical content to energetic music (that you're not interpreting, just adds ambiance).

This could all be part of how extreme skating competitions or exhibitions could be structured.

Give it a try and see what kind of audience it attracts.

For those with interest and talent, you can migrate them to traditional skating if they want to do this. They can catch up by learning their SS and fundamentals later on when they are truly interested. Don't scare them off by forcing this boring stuff on them as they enter the sport.

Again, the "boring" stuff is often necessary for safety before anyone should be throwing themselves into the air on skates.

Already skaters start jumping very early in their singles skating careers. Many young skaters love jumping best. Some coaches keep things interesting for them by letting them attempt jumps on a harness or otherwise start working on jumps they're not really ready for technically. But a coach who encourages skaters to jump up in the air and rotate and try to land on one foot before they have mastered the skill of controlling a back outside edge is courting disaster -- for more than just those skaters if they're doing it on crowded public or freestyle sessions.

There could certainly be a culture within the extreme skating discipline, or even within element competitions and programs at lower levels, that encourages energy and innovation rather than refinement.

Ideally, what we'd want to see is skaters with full control over what their bodies and blades are doing, choosing to use music and body positions and innovative moves that are fun and interesting and "cool" according to their own tastes and interests.

If they want to learn triple jumps, they're going to need that kind of control including tight air positions.

Young children's taste is probably not going to be "cool" to teen and adult audiences, nor will performances full of slow scratchy skating and lots of axels and single-single-single combinations be impressive to those audiences. At least for the young ones, the cuteness factor may offer some appeal.

But by the time skaters reach preteen or teen age groups and, for the talented and committed skaters who have already been training for several years, fast skating on edges with big double jumps and maybe some triples would be fun to watch, and even more so if they can do it to lively cool music, wearing cool athletic clothing, and include personality in their performance and some unique personal moves or variations.

How much to encourage the "cool" factor in a separate discipline in which two-foot skating, no-foot sliding, two-foot jump landings, gymnastics on ice, etc., are valued more than mastery of edge, or to encourage a cooler more modern aesthetic in standard skating competition is a question. Could both coexist?
 
I would love to see a discipline of figure skating that focuses on "cool" moves, athleticism, daring, and innovation.

I would also love to see a discipline in which artistic coherence in the use of skating skills takes priority over difficulty, especially difficulty not directly based on blade-to-ice technique.

But I would still want to maintain a discipline in which blade-to-ice technical skills and in-air skills and performance skills are more or less balanced in determining results.

Let skaters, and audiences, gravitate toward whichever discipline interests them most, just as some skaters and fans love pair skating and hate ice dance, and others the other way around.



That is already the case. In the US learn-to-skate group lesson curriculum, these beginning jumps are taught during basic skills classes (bunny hop) and "pre-freeskate" class (waltz jump).

Rockers are advanced skills that are first required in the US test structure on the novice Moves in the Field test, more formally on the junior test. Most freestyle skaters will be at least working on double jumps before learning rockers, or even brackets (intermediate test). Although they are welcome to include whatever advanced turns they're capable of in their programs at lower levels.

However, some degree of edge control including forward three turns and landing edges is necessary before waltz jumps and single jumps, for safety reasons if nothing else.

I've seen adults who try to teach themselves jumps on ice without having learned the basics of actually skating, and the results are not pretty and not safe for other skater on the ice at the same time.



No one should be doing backflips on the ice before they have good acrobatic skills including backflips off ice. However, if there is going to be an extreme skating discipline that's all about flashy tricks that can use two feet and don't need to use edges, then sure, gymnastics on ice could include backflips and not be doing classic spin positions at all if that's not important in that discipline.



Keep in mind that small ramps on the ice would render the ice surface unusable for all other users.

This would require either
*separate practice times during which temporary ramps can be brought on the ice and affixed in a way that would be safe for the extreme skaters, and then removed in a way that would restore the ice to an appropriate condition for hockey, public skating, standard figure skating, speedskating -- with both the addition and the removal taking only a few minutes or else charged as part of the time the extreme skaters are renting the ice

or else

*whole separate facilities used only for acrobatic skating if they have permanent ramps on the ice

Either way, it's going to make access to ramped facilities scarce and expensive for the extreme skaters. If they can figure out a way to convert a standard ice surface into what they want and then back again in a safe and efficient/cost-effective manner, more power to them.



This could all be part of how extreme skating competitions or exhibitions could be structured.

Give it a try and see what kind of audience it attracts.



Again, the "boring" stuff is often necessary for safety before anyone should be throwing themselves into the air on skates.

Already skaters start jumping very early in their singles skating careers. Many young skaters love jumping best. Some coaches keep things interesting for them by letting them attempt jumps on a harness or otherwise start working on jumps they're not really ready for technically. But a coach who encourages skaters to jump up in the air and rotate and try to land on one foot before they have mastered the skill of controlling a back outside edge is courting disaster -- for more than just those skaters if they're doing it on crowded public or freestyle sessions.

There could certainly be a culture within the extreme skating discipline, or even within element competitions and programs at lower levels, that encourages energy and innovation rather than refinement.

Ideally, what we'd want to see is skaters with full control over what their bodies and blades are doing, choosing to use music and body positions and innovative moves that are fun and interesting and "cool" according to their own tastes and interests.

If they want to learn triple jumps, they're going to need that kind of control including tight air positions.

Young children's taste is probably not going to be "cool" to teen and adult audiences, nor will performances full of slow scratchy skating and lots of axels and single-single-single combinations be impressive to those audiences. At least for the young ones, the cuteness factor may offer some appeal.

But by the time skaters reach preteen or teen age groups and, for the talented and committed skaters who have already been training for several years, fast skating on edges with big double jumps and maybe some triples would be fun to watch, and even more so if they can do it to lively cool music, wearing cool athletic clothing, and include personality in their performance and some unique personal moves or variations.

How much to encourage the "cool" factor in a separate discipline in which two-foot skating, no-foot sliding, two-foot jump landings, gymnastics on ice, etc., are valued more than mastery of edge, or to encourage a cooler more modern aesthetic in standard skating competition is a question. Could both coexist?

Thanks for all the feedback but I fear the discussion would digress into tactical discussion of each piece. If we begin that kind of debate, we throw the baby out with the bathwater, dismissing an entire idea because we're nervous about backflips.

I only mentioned rockers and backflips to illustrate the concept, not to advocate those elements specifically. I have considered all of things but it's about the concept in general is my main point. An XGames version of figure skating. What that end up looking like would require a lot of due diligence.
 
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This is an interesting hypothesis, @Rock2, as expressed here and in your following post. But, it is untested.

(I'm not shouting with caps, I haven't figured out hot to section off each part of a person's post and comment on each piece. I'm sure it's easy...just haven't looked into it) ALL NEW PRODUCT IDEAS ARE UNTESTED. SO YOU TEST THEM.

Would a move toward pure athleticism work and bring in more men and younger audiences? Not much evidence for that, as yet anyway.

ELVIS AND KURT BROUGHT MEN AND MADE AUDIENCES YOUNGER IN CANADA BASED ON THE DATA COLLECTED AND PUBLISHED BY SKATE CANADA. HOW THEY COLLECTED IT, NOT SURE. THEIR MASCULINITY AND ATHLETIC CHARISMA WAS THE DRAW.


There is a sizable group of younger skating fans out there who are pretty into the technical side of the sport, and well-versed in it, but I'm not sure if that's because it is their true interest or simply because they understand that's what gains points in the current system. I think it's mainly the latter TBH.

OF COURSE THERE ARE SOME BUT NOT ENOUGH. NOT NEARLY ENOUGH.

As to the concept of "men" (i.e., straight men) getting more into figure skating, I hate to say it, but anecdotally, I just don't know as I see this happening. The sport as it stands today is already more athletic than it's ever been before, with quads and such. But meanwhile men's interest has, if anything, declined further, as far as I can tell.

THE SPORT MAY BE MORE ATHLETIC BUT THE GROWTH IN QUADS AND 3/3s IS PRETTY MINOR IN TERMS OF WHAT IT COULD BE. THERE IS A WHOLE OTHER LEVEL OF TECH DEVELOPMENT, ATHLETICISM, DANGER AND DRAMA TO BE HAD OUT THERE THAT YOU MIGHT NOT READILY SEE AS SOMEONE WHO WOULDN'T BE IN THE TARGET MARKET. i WILL SAY THAT HAVING 50% OF THE MARK BE ARTISTIC WILL ALWAYS LIMIT TO WHAT EXTENT PEOPLE WILL SEE SKATING AS AN ATHLETIC SPORT. SO INSTEAD OF FIGHTING THIS PARADIGM I SAY START SOMETHING ELSE WHERE MOST OF THE MARK IS TECH.

I really wish more men liked figure skating--in part because I'd like to see them be open to their sons getting into it--but it's just a tough thing. Where I live, the reflexive automatic attitude is, You put your son in hockey skates from day 1. Figure skating is seen as something for girls.

AGAIN, CORRECT. A TWEAK TO IJS WON'T FIX THIS.

Would the introduction of a "stunt skating" type of competitive genre (as mentioned in your second post) make a difference? I kind of doubt it. On the other hand, there's no reason not to try it. As long as it's an addition to figure skating, not a substitute for it.

THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT. WHY FIGHT CURRENT IJS. DEVELOP AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GENRE WITH ITS OWN DESIGN AND BRAND TO ATTRACT NEW PEOPLE.
ALL PRODUCT IDEAS MUST BE STUDIED AND INCUBATED. I DEVELOP NEW PRODUCTS FOR A LIVING SO I KNOW THE PROCESS. INEXPENSIVE TO RESEARCH THE CONCEPT. YOU DEVELOP AND TEST MARKET IN A FEW CONTAINED LOCATIONS AND GROW IT GRADUALLY AS YOU TWEAK THE SPORT AND LEARN WHAT ATTRACTS AND KEEPS PEOPLE IN IT.

As much as I'd like to see more men getting into skating, I definitely swing to the side of, Play to your strengths and your core audience first, and grow that as much as you can. Figure skating doesn't necessarily have to be a soccer-sized or football-sized sport. But admittedly, it would be nice if it were more popular than it is right now.

CORRECT. LET FIGURE SKATING DO ITS THING WHICH IS RIGHT NOW DE-EMPHASIZE TECH AND PROMOTE POPULAR OR WHATEVER SKATERS THEY WANT INTO PODIUM POSITIONS WITH THE GREATER IMPACT OF PCS AND GOE. GO FOR IT. CAN NEVER SERVE ALL NEEDS AND AUDIENCES. RATHER THAN DIVIDING ONE AUDIENCE, SECTION THEM OFF INTO THEIR OWN CORNERS AND SERVE THEM WELL, INDEPENDENTLY.

See my comments in CAPS within the quotation. I sectioned this off improperly because of my technical limitations on how to quote posts.....
 
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Outside influence directs and dictates more than it should be allowed. It is unfortunate that commercialism has taken such a toll on the sport. IMHO.
While you can't force somebody to shut down their instagram, or to stop from making money prior to competition, yes I agree there is something unfair. The richest gets richer ? Coming from a specific country already puts you above some same-level competitors, but if you have the outside "publicity" to back it up, you can get that extra push.

But it's needed, this is what might get the non-viewer to actually turn into a casual viewer (and more).
 
Thanks for all the feedback but I fear the discussion would digress into tactical discussion of each piece. If we begin that kind of debate, we throw the baby out with the bathwater, dismissing an entire idea because we're nervous about backflips.

I only mentioned rockers and backflips to illustrate the concept, not to advocate those elements specifically. I have considered all of things but it's about the concept in general is my main point. An XGames version of figure skating. What that end up looking like would require a lot of due diligence.

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ct-figure-skating-in-the-us-and-europe.78043/

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/extreme-skating-moves.86548/

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/isu-council-ultimate-skating-proposal.99613/

We could revive one of these old threads or start a new one in The Trash Can to brainstorm what an XGames version of figure skating might look like.

It would probably be very different if it were initiated by the ISU or if it were initiated by "freestyle" skaters who have no connection to figure skating or by former figure skaters/show skaters looking for different ways to use their figure skating and extra-skating skills.

Also, does "grass roots" mean starting with little kids who don't have any skating skills at all yet, or starting with older self-motivated teens and young adults who are already comfortable on the ice from years of training and/or playing around building their own discipline locally and then networking with each other?

I think it's a fascinating topic and one both you and I have posted about in the past, but the discussion could take place somewhere other than this thread.
 
We can talk forever about changing the sport ... but the ISU is currently having YouTube channels that archive skating programs taken down due to copyright claims.

2018 Worlds didn't even happen in internet terms, because there aren't any videos.

If people can't see it then nothing else really matters. In sporting terms, people follow what they can easily see.

I recall the one of the Australian skating organisations commenting on Facebook that it wanted to share videos of its skaters at 2018 Worlds but couldn't because there weren't any. There's a key problem for you right there. Any interest gained by the media attention the skaters got during the Olympics couldn't be capitalised on.
 
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@Rock2, progress is made by implementing ideas, and you’ve certainly laid out a gold mine.

I applaud your very ambitious, excellent suggestions and vision of thinking outside the box and pushing the envelope, etc. We need more voices and forward-thinking opinions like yours that challenge the comfort zone and shake-up the status quo. Brilliant! (y) If only the brass were as bold!! You need office space at the ISU! Stat!
 
Rockers are advanced skills that are first required in the US test structure on the novice Moves in the Field test, more formally on the junior test. Most freestyle skaters will be at least working on double jumps before learning rockers, or even brackets (intermediate test). Although they are welcome to include whatever advanced turns they're capable of in their programs at lower levels.
Most skaters are usually a couple tests ahead in moves vs. freestyle, especially if they are at the top of their game. They take as many moves tests as they can pass and wait to take freestyle so they remain competitive. It's fairly rare to take moves tests only in tandem with freestyle - Juvenile moves then Juvenile free, Intermediate moves then Intermediate free, etc. No coach worth their salt would wait until a skater is working on doubles to teach a rocker.

There are probably a lot of competitive Juveniles and Intermediates who have passed Senior moves already. I know your general point is that jumping is taught before advance turns, but that is just a skill progression thing. Skaters learn basic jumps, spins and turns and then they learn advanced jumps, spins and turns.
 
https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...ct-figure-skating-in-the-us-and-europe.78043/

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/extreme-skating-moves.86548/

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/isu-council-ultimate-skating-proposal.99613/

We could revive one of these old threads or start a new one in The Trash Can to brainstorm what an XGames version of figure skating might look like.

It would probably be very different if it were initiated by the ISU or if it were initiated by "freestyle" skaters who have no connection to figure skating or by former figure skaters/show skaters looking for different ways to use their figure skating and extra-skating skills.

Also, does "grass roots" mean starting with little kids who don't have any skating skills at all yet, or starting with older self-motivated teens and young adults who are already comfortable on the ice from years of training and/or playing around building their own discipline locally and then networking with each other?

I think it's a fascinating topic and one both you and I have posted about in the past, but the discussion could take place somewhere other than this thread.

Probably a Trash Can thread, yeah.

As for ideas, I'm flexible on most things....except the objective is to grow skating in totality (as measured by participcation as well as audience). Gets fuzzy from there hahaha.

With that in mind, the vision is something different than what Tom Z does for fun in the fall in Colorado. The approach there was to take reasonably top figure skaters and migrate them over to this new competition concept. Not much choice there because that's all you have to pull from in terms of developed talent.
So while my idea does allow for cross-polination if skaters between the two brands of skating in this way, there is an absolute must that 'people' enter the sport specifically because of this new genre. Ideally you create entry points as a kid or as a pre-teen or teen etc so that all are welcome.

'Grassroots' means start slow and small. Prove it out on a small scale and without involvement or even blessing of ISU or even a national federation as they are both likely to be hesitant or probably skeptical.
Incubate in one city and no more than a few clubs. Pull coaches from gymnastics as well as singles and pairs skating. Get some smarty-pantses to build the scoring and programming. And keep building as interest grows. Once it's a certain size, approach the federation to support it and integrate it and build it nationally. Then work on other countries adopting it and eventually there are world champs and maybe an Olympic sport. It's a 20 year plan, really.
 
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@Rock2, progress is made by implementing ideas, and you’ve certainly laid out a gold mine.

I applaud your very ambitious, excellent suggestions and vision of thinking outside the box and pushing the envelope, etc. We need more voices and forward-thinking opinions like yours that challenge the comfort zone and shake-up the status quo. Brilliant! (y) If only the brass were as bold!! You need office space at the ISU! Stat!

Well, I did bring this idea up to a top skater a year ago and the skater loved it. In fact they were aware of a coach that was on a somewhat secret committee created by a skating federation to study the potential for something like this. I never got details. I still have the lines of contact so I will bring up again someday. My gut tells me it could happen but you have to prove it out away from ISU to show it works. Money talks. They'll jump on board if they see it actually working, eventually.

If this were to start in Canada, I could see someone like Dylan Moscovitch having a big leadership role. He's intelligent, well spoken, credible and a total jock.
 
Well, I did bring this idea up to a top skater a year ago and the skater loved it. In fact they were aware of a coach that was on a somewhat secret committee created by a skating federation to study the potential for something like this. I never got details. I still have the lines of contact so I will bring up again someday. My gut tells me it could happen but you have to prove it out away from ISU to show it works. Money talks. They'll jump on board if they see it actually working, eventually.

If this were to start in Canada, I could see someone like Dylan Moscovitch having a big leadership role. He's intelligent, well spoken, credible and a total jock.

And very yummy. :eek:
 
It must be noted that at this past weekend's National Championships of Indonesia, the lone senior men's singles entrant had already dropped his free skate length down to 4 minutes with 7 jumping passes.
 
I would rather see a proposal to implement a penalty for doing 3 or 4 consecutive jumping passes, or 3 consecutive non-jumping elements.

Doing all of your jumps in the 2nd half is risky enough that if someone pulls it off, they deserve the bonus.
 
And to be docked several points on their Composition mark, thus negating the bonus. :COP:
:EVILLE:
Russian girls don't need to back load anymore.... The next set doing 3A and quads... with 3x3's on the end in combo. If you want to hinder Russians, ban quads.... (and that won't happen). So... North Ams are still shit out of luck even with pushing back-loading issues...:EVILLE:
 
Russian girls don't need to back load anymore.... The next set doing 3A and quads... with 3x3's on the end in combo. If you want to hinder Russians, ban quads.... (and that won't happen). So... North Ams are still shit out of luck even with pushing back-loading issues...:EVILLE:
I lurves ya, Tinami, but sometimes you can be a kneejerk reactionary conspiracy theorist. ;)

I wasn't talking about any specific nationality of skater. But, now that you mention it, the first skater I can think of who does this is Aimee Buchanan, who is as Israeli as apple pie. :saint:
 
One irony I'll point out. Many people here assert that it's the artistry that pulls in audiences and therefore skating should honor this direction. I would argue that artistry probably caters to the current audience more (women, older, gay). The current audience size is very middle of the pack, larger than more obscure winter sports but smaller than major sports by a long shot. If skating REALLY wants to build audiences, it has to swing hard into the direction of sporting entertainment to pull in the money through men and younger audiences. Sports is much more lucrative than art. If we're uncertain, let's look into and compare the size of salaries and TV contracts for performing arts/artists vs sports/athletes such as those in soccer and baseball. Yes, I will say that for skating to REALLY grow it will need to head in a direction that turns off 80% of the people on these boards. #RIP
Who's going to make that call?

The last piece that's missing to me that is not discussed is the sport's ability to regulate itself. How does it ensure the results continue to be correct according to strict interpretation of the rulebook? And in cases where it's not, how are offenders kept accountable. To me this is the bigger issue that sits at the top, because it seems no matter what the ISU decides in terms of rules, officials have too many options to ignore the rules with no consequences. And both current and potential audiences see right through this.

This is an interesting hypothesis, @Rock2, as expressed here and in your following post. But, it is untested. Would a move toward pure athleticism work and bring in more men and younger audiences? Not much evidence for that, as yet anyway. There is a sizeable group of younger skating fans out there who are pretty into the technical side of the sport, and well-versed in it, but I'm not sure if that's because it is their true interest or simply because they understand that's what gains points in the current system. I think it's mainly the latter TBH.

Would the introduction of a "stunt skating" type of competitive genre (as mentioned in your second post) make a difference? I kind of doubt it. On the other hand, there's no reason not to try it. As long as it's an addition to figure skating, not a substitute for it.


This is the biggest issue facing the sport, IMO. The rules were changed and arguably modernized with IJS. But the systems for choosing judges and evaluating their performance remain basically as they ever were. That is the area of the sport that currently most needs modernization and a major update.

If you want more technical content, more spectacular jumps and so on, why not just relax the Zayak rules a bit? e.g. 3 triples or quads can be repeated, 1 can be performed 3 times, allow two 3 jump combinations, and so on. All would add to more spectacular performances, maybe attract younger audiences while at the same time not moving that far away from figure skating's roots.

Also add a few seconds while you're at it to the Choreo Seq so you get more spectacular moves in the field. These too would be more attractive to a younger audience than what you get at the moment.

Re the judges, the key to it all is for the ISU to look at a site like SkatingScores.com, the judges tallies as if they've scored the whole competition by themselves is there for all to see. The stuff that goes on, without being able to hide behind the +1s and +2s and so on, is pretty mind-boggling. The ISU would be well advised, IMO, to look at this site and follow its example in assessing judges e.g. look at judges marking their own skaters up and other skaters down - just read across on any line where a skater's countries judge is on the panel. On average a judge should score their skater 5th out of 9 if everything is random, but the number of times it's 1st or 2nd is mind-blowing, and that's before you take account of marking down (someone could cause real damage to figure skating if they wanted to).

If the ISU were to do the same at each competition, and the judges knew it, a lot of this sort of stuff would disappear overnight. I don't know what you'd do about technical calls, but GOEs and PCSs you could - also why not just not have judges marking their own skater, take the middle 6 out of 8 scores, factor differently and that's a lot of the problem solved.

Men's Free Skate scores at Olympics on SkatingScores.com http://skatingscores.com/2018/oly/men/long/tss/
 
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I thought this quote from Dmitri Soloviev when he was asked if he wanted to be a judge was interesting:

Hell no! I know how they treat the judges who did not forgive someone or put not those marks that were expected. I do not want to be in this position.

http://fs-gossips.com/ekaterina-bobrova-and-dmitri-soloviev-our-sport-is-very-subjective/

Yes, there’s probably lot of very well meaning and honest people who get into judging, then they find other countries judges are marking up their own skaters and marking down theirs, and before you know it they’re in the whole sorry mess, with no one able to break the circle.

Also interesting Dmitri’s comment re a lot of judges and technical specialists having nothing to do with figure skating, and just judging on what’s written on paper. However he does say some get so competent that they can even offer good advice, so that’s good.
 

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