Discussing Tuberidze's latest interview

[skateboy]

I would like to hear from more of her other skaters before I form an opinion about Eteri.

 

[muffinplus]

I would like to hear from more of her other skaters before I form an opinion about Eteri.

They have talked about her. Even Shelepen whose interview I linked above.

 

[PRlady]

They have talked about her. Even Shelepen whose interview I linked above.

We will all be patient and wait for Kamilla or Anna or Sasha to tell the truth in a few years. (Alena has already been smeared so much she has no credibility.) and then we will say we need to hear from her current stars, whoever they may be.

Not until her skaters start failing to medal will she be held to account.

 

[muffinplus]

We will all be patient and wait for Kamilla or Anna or Sasha to tell the truth in a few years. (Alena has already been smeared so much she has no credibility.) and then we will say we need to hear from her current stars, whoever they may be.

Not until her skaters start failing to medal will she be held to account.

So some of her past skaters who have spoken about her don't count as the truth or is only certain ones?

 

[PRlady]

So some of her past skaters who have spoken about her don't count as the truth or is only certain ones?

No. I was responding to those wondering about what the current crop will say. Her nastiness about Evgenia and Alina and Julia and her focus on weight and obedience somehow don’t seem to be convincing enough.

 

[muffinplus]

No. I was responding to those wondering about what the current crop will say. Her nastiness about Evgenia and Alina and Julia and her focus on weight and obedience somehow don’t seem to be convincing enough.

Still waiting to hear what that "nastiness" was towards Yulia or Alina in this particular interview. I'm sure some of them will say something negative...and some of them will say something positive. And nobody who has an opinion one way will not change their mind as it's been long made up...

 

[skateboy]

I have mixed feelings about what some consider to be "toxic" coaches, and here's why:

Most of you know that I have enjoyed a career as a professional solo violinist (semi-retired now). As a young kid, I had a nurturing teacher, she was extremely supportive and I was deemed as "talented." Of course, I enjoyed that praise, had fun while practicing a lot and won a lot of competitions, leading to my being under management while still a youngster, lots of performing engagements, etc. (While still competing as a roller figure skater for 15 years, lol!)

While still a teen, I went to a conservatory teacher (who was known to produce results), known to be tough. And he was. He himself was raised in the Soviet system, and there was definitely no mollycoddling. From the first lesson, he raised his voice, hurled insults at me, questioned my commitment and cast doubts on my talent and future potential. I felt compelled to please him, so I worked harder than ever. For six months I was miserable and my confidence was shattered but, at the same time, the advice he was giving me (verbal abuse aside) resulted in a marked improvement in my playing. So I stuck with it.

Eventually I came to expect -- and accept -- the yelling and insults, so I put my ego and feelings aside and just took in the good that he was offering me (which was a lot). Then I was fine and I stayed with him for five years. Looking back, it was the best decision I could have made, as it made me work hard, re-evaluate and revitalize my work ethic and, well... actually empowered and toughened me up to where I was emotionally ready for the hard, cold, competitive world of being a professional solo artist. And, after that tough training, nothing really rattled me.

This kind of harshness is not for everyone. And it wouldn't have been for me in my earliest years. But, at the time (age 17), it worked for me and I don't regret it at all.

Just throwing out some food for thought.

 

[BittyBug]

Just throwing out some food for thought.

I don't think most of us expect every coach to be Kori Aide, but your choice of phrase here perhaps inadvertently alludes to one of the main concerns about Tutberidze's camp - a very unhealthy attitude towards food that can create lifelong problems for athletes. There were two examples of this in the interview, and we've also heard from other now retired skaters about Tutberidze's obsession with withholding not only food but hydration.

That foundation sets an athlete up not only for eating disorders but also amenorrhea, which in turn increases the likelihood of injury along with health issues down the road, like osteopenia. Is she the only coach in skating or other sports who engages in this behavior? Absolutely not. But she is the one who is blatantly taking about, without apology.

 

[mjb52]

I guess for me that's what they used to say about coaches like Bob Knight in the US. Then the culture changed. We just don't accept that kind of thing anymore.

I do sometimes think about Tutberidze and Viner when I (very rarely) watch men's teams in football, basketball, soccer - those coaches yell all the time and no one seems to think much of it. So what was the difference with Bob Knight? That his outbursts were more intense and more personal? Or was it that he got physical with his players? It's been quite awhile so I don't remember exactly how his final fall from grace happened (can you tell I'm from the Midwest with this example?).

I think this is the challenge the sport faces. To figure out what standards it wants to set and how to go about encouraging them and to figure out where the line is, and what it means to say a coach is crossing it.

But I also think change from Russia will come best from within, even though obviously that doesn't mean the ISU should just be like "well I guess anything goes." It can be encouraged. But it also should come into the context of thinking about the whole sport everywhere and what will encourage better practices everywhere... the US, Canada, Japan, etc...

 

[Impromptu]

Well, the chair throwing got the publicity, but I think Knight was fired for choking a player.

 

[Tavi]

I have mixed feelings about what some consider to be "toxic" coaches, and here's why:

Most of you know that I have enjoyed a career as a professional solo violinist (semi-retired now). As a young kid, I had a nurturing teacher, she was extremely supportive and I was deemed as "talented." Of course, I enjoyed that praise, had fun while practicing a lot and won a lot of competitions, leading to my being under management while still a youngster, lots of performing engagements, etc. (While still competing as a roller figure skater for 15 years, lol!)

While still a teen, I went to a conservatory teacher (who was known to produce results), known to be tough. And he was. He himself was raised in the Soviet system, and there was definitely no mollycoddling. From the first lesson, he raised his voice, hurled insults at me, questioned my commitment and cast doubts on my talent and future potential. I felt compelled to please him, so I worked harder than ever. For six months I was miserable and my confidence was shattered but, at the same time, the advice he was giving me (verbal abuse aside) resulted in a marked improvement in my playing. So I stuck with it.

Eventually I came to expect -- and accept -- the yelling and insults, so I put my ego and feelings aside and just took in the good that he was offering me (which was a lot). Then I was fine and I stayed with him for five years. Looking back, it was the best decision I could have made, as it made me work hard, re-evaluate and revitalize my work ethic and, well... actually empowered and toughened me up to where I was emotionally ready for the hard, cold, competitive world of being a professional solo artist. And, after that tough training, nothing really rattled me.

This kind of harshness is not for everyone. And it wouldn't have been for me in my earliest years. But, at the time (age 17), it worked for me and I don't regret it at all.

Just throwing out some food for thought.

I’m guessing that despite the harsh training you didn’t end up with an eating disorder or permanent back injury though?

 

[MacMadame]

That Lipnitskaya failed because she was distracted by the media. Which, again, is fair - a lot of athletes get affected by media pressure. But that's not her fault - that's the fault of a story-hungry media machine and the weight of pressure. Not her being weak in any way.

I believe Lipnitskaya has said the same, btw.

I don't know how you can infer she told it because "she thinks it makes her look good". She was just telling a story.

And, again, I asked where she was insluting/bagging anyone in the interview. She does have a tendency to come of across as "my way or the highway", however I don't see that she trashed or "blamed" anyone in this interview so egregiously as was described, based on these quotes

So I guess saying a skater is a Momma's girl and won't train hard if her mom is around is ... a compliment?

That Med got fat and that's why she was injured (which is visibly not true) is ... a compliment?

I can see you are an Eteri uber so I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[skateboy]

I’m guessing that despite the harsh training you didn’t end up with an eating disorder or permanent back injury though?

Yes, this is true.

 

[Coco]

I think Bobby Knight's declining win percentage may have had something to do with them finally getting tired of his physical aggression. But abusive behavior by coaches happens all the time in professional and collegiate sports in the US.

 

[muffinplus]

I believe Lipnitskaya has said the same, btw.


So I guess saying a skater is a Momma's girl and won't train hard if her mom is around is ... a compliment?

That Med got fat and that's why she was injured (which is visibly not true) is ... a compliment?

I can see you are an Eteri uber so I'm going to leave it at that.

That Zagitova did not train hard while her mom was around is not a compliment , but neither it is an insult or dragging someone through the mud. It is a criticism oh her work ethic. She did not “literally“ say Med got “fat” as you put it.. the words she used were not the same. I am going to say some of you just have inherent biases in hearing how things are said through an already preconceived notion lens and then retort with “you must be an Eteri Uber”.

 

[feraina]

I don't get it. I like her skaters so much and I think there are definitely people who are eager to see the worst in her. At the same time, she doesn't make it that hard when she acts like this. You can be interesting without being harsh or going out of your way to be unkind to the people who have made you so successful.

She doesn’t sound at all like she thinks the skaters are the ones who made her successful. She sounds like she thinks she’s the one who made them successful and they were only successful because of her and her methods. And if they failed or didn’t achieve more it’d because they didn’t follow her methods enough.

Honestly all her skaters at the peak of their success look so skinny and wait like, all the way from Shelepen. What if the only secret to her girls jumping so many quads and 3A’s is that she forces their bodies to postpone puberty through dieting? That and having a much larger supply of talented kids than any other coach?

 

[feraina]

I have mixed feelings about what some consider to be "toxic" coaches, and here's why:

Most of you know that I have enjoyed a career as a professional solo violinist (semi-retired now). As a young kid, I had a nurturing teacher, she was extremely supportive and I was deemed as "talented." Of course, I enjoyed that praise, had fun while practicing a lot and won a lot of competitions, leading to my being under management while still a youngster, lots of performing engagements, etc. (While still competing as a roller figure skater for 15 years, lol!)

While still a teen, I went to a conservatory teacher (who was known to produce results), known to be tough. And he was. He himself was raised in the Soviet system, and there was definitely no mollycoddling. From the first lesson, he raised his voice, hurled insults at me, questioned my commitment and cast doubts on my talent and future potential. I felt compelled to please him, so I worked harder than ever. For six months I was miserable and my confidence was shattered but, at the same time, the advice he was giving me (verbal abuse aside) resulted in a marked improvement in my playing. So I stuck with it.

Eventually I came to expect -- and accept -- the yelling and insults, so I put my ego and feelings aside and just took in the good that he was offering me (which was a lot). Then I was fine and I stayed with him for five years. Looking back, it was the best decision I could have made, as it made me work hard, re-evaluate and revitalize my work ethic and, well... actually empowered and toughened me up to where I was emotionally ready for the hard, cold, competitive world of being a professional solo artist. And, after that tough training, nothing really rattled me.

This kind of harshness is not for everyone. And it wouldn't have been for me in my earliest years. But, at the time (age 17), it worked for me and I don't regret it at all.

Just throwing out some food for thought.

I think a coach can be demanding and having a keen eye for weaknesses and ways to improve without being personally insulting. Calling a student “lazy” is completely unnecessary personal insult - it’s attributing personal lack of motivation and a (somewhat permanent) character flaw instead of sticking with the observables without assuming you know why they’re behaving this way, like: she didn’t do the things I asked her to do at the end of each lesson. Or she didn’t come to lessons warmed up properly. Or even, she kept on gaining weight so she couldn’t rotate her jumps anymore (although you can’t be sure that’s why she isn’t rotating her jumps; maybe she’s both gaining weight and can’t rotate the jumps because there’s some underlying health problem; but at least this is much better than saying she “intentionally” gained weight).

This is the difference for example between Raf and Tutberidze. Raf is also known for being extremely demanding and frank. He might say here was the issue in my work process with a student, but he never attributes personality flaws or poor intentions. He would just say he doesn’t know why it’s like this and it’s a problem for making progress. In fact he tells the story of how he got frustrated with Mao Asada because she would go to Japan for long periods and then requested to be coached remotely. And he told her no, we can’t work like this, so he terminated their work relationship. Later he found out her mother was very sick and dying so he felt terribly sorry about it and went up to Mao at a competition later to say how sorry he was about the whole thing. He said he learned from that experience not to jump to conclusions about students when they don’t want to or can’t work with you the way you envision it. You can also see how he accommodated Nathan Chen with Yale, though he clearly wanted Chen to train differently. But he repeatedly said in interviews he understands how important education is to Chen’s family. The point is that Raf and Tutberidze maybe came from a similar Soviet authoritarian system, but Raf evolved to be more humane/understanding and more psychologically mature, and Tutberidze didn’t or hasn’t yet. She’s still relatively inexperienced so she can still learn. Maybe something will happen with her daughter or another prize pupil that will finally make her more compassionate/understanding.

It’s definitely possible to be tough and demanding without being personally insulting. I had a PhD advisor who was very demanding and had extremely high expectations, so you had to have a very thick skin and a great willingness to constantly improve in order to stay his student. Many students dropped out and some were reduced to tears in public due to his withering critique of their work - but it was about their work and not them. Big difference. I have never ever heard him say something personally insulting to a student’s face or about them to another person. And he’s held in great esteem by all he’s ever interacted with.

I wonder if it’s only lack of maturity that makes Tutberidze behave this way or if there’s something else going on. Is it because she has always felt like she needs to prove her worth as a coach? Maybe she has very high self expectations or she feels to be an upstart that the other coaches secretly look down upon? Why else would she constantly be focusing on all the ways that her students have “failed” in the past and how it’s everybody else’s fault and not hers? I mean why doesn’t she have a healthier mindset where she can focus more on her students’ successes and the wonderful journeys they’ve enjoyed together to achieve those successes. I mean, Julia, Medvedeva, Alina, the 3A’s. Those are all really great success stories. If she spent half the interview blaming Medvedeva then it might be because internally she sees it as such a big failure and still can’t get over it, and she’s still going over it in her mind what went “wrong.” I’m saying all this because I also have a perfectionist mindset and while that can drive you to success in life it can also make you miserable and stop seeing the good side of things. It takes a lot of therapy and constant self reflection to combat that kind of tendency.

 

[BittyBug]

I wonder if it’s only lack of maturity that makes Tutberidze behave this way or if there’s something else going on.

I'm not a shrink, but I think she herself revealed the root of her insecurities - her father's dismissal of her and her sisters because they were not "sons."

 

[mjb52]

Well this is one reason the whole thing is a bit frustrating, because I think her achievements are incredible and she could be a role model but it doesn't mean much to be a woman who has accomplished a lot, if you are going about it in the wrong way. This is where I feel like Tinami would leap in and talk about how she's just being honest and so forth. I think there has to be a middle ground between cheesy American girl boss phoniness (lol, sorry, this is a somewhat hyperbolic stereotype) and quotes that make it sound like you are attacking your students. I guess I should watch the interview myself, but without speaking Russian, we do end up relying on the small number of Russian speakers here and on other forums for their interpretation of whether her quotes are being misconstrued. It seems like some of them are critical, some aren't.

 

[muffinplus]

Well this is one reason the whole thing is a bit frustrating, because I think her achievements are incredible and she could be a role model but it doesn't mean much to be a woman who has accomplished a lot, if you are going about it in the wrong way. This is where I feel like Tinami would leap in and talk about how she's just being honest and so forth. I think there has to be a middle ground between cheesy American girl boss phoniness (lol, sorry, this is a somewhat hyperbolic stereotype) and quotes that make it sound like you are attacking your students. I guess I should watch the interview myself, but without speaking Russian, we do end up relying on the small number of Russian speakers here and on other forums for their interpretation of whether her quotes are being misconstrued. It seems like some of them are critical, some aren't.

Some Russian speakers ( who are not her fans ) think she is dragging her students through the mud.. some don’t. I think it will be a matter of interpretation even if you do speak Russian how you see or hear those quotes

 

[Mayra]

Why else would she constantly be focusing on all the ways that her students have “failed” in the past and how it’s everybody else’s fault and not hers? I mean why doesn’t she have a healthier mindset where she can focus more on her students’ successes and the wonderful journeys they’ve enjoyed together to achieve those successes. I mean, Julia, Medvedeva, Alina, the 3A’s. Those are all really great success stories. If she spent half the interview blaming Medvedeva then it might be because internally she sees it as such a big failure and still can’t get over it, and she’s still going over it in her mind what went “wrong.”

Her perfectionism causes her to shift blame to others?

I suppose...

Then again one person's perfectionism is another's narcissism.

 

[zebraswan]

It’s definitely possible to be tough and demanding without being personally insulting. I had a PhD advisor who was very demanding and had extremely high expectations, so you had to have a very thick skin and a great willingness to constantly improve in order to stay his student. Many students dropped out and some were reduced to tears in public due to his withering critique of their work - but it was about their work and not them. Big difference. I have never ever heard him say something personally insulting to a student’s face or about them to another person. And he’s held in great esteem by all he’s ever interacted with.

Really? Raf "elephants don't fly" Arutyunyan?

 

[Icetalavista]

In response to Skateboy's comments re the tough former-Soviet teacher...I have wondered (and would be interested to hear from Russians) if 'toughness' in the form of being willing to take verbal abuse, etc, is a highly valued trait in Russia. God knows Russia as a country has shown amazing toughness over and over - WW 2 onward, dealing with Stalin, etc.

When watching one of Kostornaia's grand prix events this fall, after she forgot some choreo and Eteri yelled at her for it, she did not seem fazed by it. Just wonder if these athletes have reached the point Skateboy did, of just letting go of ego and realizing that some coaches just behave this way and it's nothing personal.

I'm also interested in coaches like Moskvina who achieve results without abuse.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

I can only conclude all this undue attention paid to me is your attempt at some sort of clumsy courting ritual,dear.

I reiterate I am not interested and still very much enamored with Mr. Bottems. He has a full thick head of hair and robust,well-maintained pectorals.

-BB

 

[hanca]

I can only conclude all this undue attention paid to me is your attempt at some sort of clumsy courting ritual,dear.

I reiterate I am not interested and still very much enamored with Mr. Bottems. He has a full thick head of hair and robust,well-maintained pectorals.

-BB

What about Mr Bottems glutes? Just don’t hold back while you are describing all his positives!

 

[skateboy]

Really? Raf "elephants don't fly" Arutyunyan?

I have also read disparaging comments from Raf about Ashley Wagner and Mariah Bell. For me, those were exactly on the same level of Eteri's comments about Med, Alina and Julia.

The teacher I mentioned earlier was equally catty about his students. I am not defending this behavior, but I know that there are certain cultural differences that, while frowned upon in the US and elsewhere, are not thought of in the same way in Russia and Eastern European countries. Maybe others as well. Bluntness is considered as truthfulness, as opposed to "polite dishonesty."

I saw a video of Miki Ando coaching skaters in Indonesia. Miki was TOUGH. If a skater didn't make a correction right away, Miki would yell at them. I remember her saying: "I've already told you twice. If you're not interested in getting better, just pack up your skates and go home."

 

[MacMadame]

IME as a kid who was coached, a parent of kids who were coaches, and a coach myself, the tough, verging on abusive (or even being abusive) style of coaching does work on some students. But it breaks many more. Therefore, I don't agree with it as I think the price is too high. Just as not everyone who is subjected to daily weighing develops an eating disorder, it's a dangerous enough practice that it has gone out of favor. I think this style of coaching should too.

That Zagitova did not train hard while her mom was around is not a compliment , but neither it is an insult or dragging someone through the mud. It is a criticism oh her work ethic.

Of course, criticizing someone's work ethic is dragging them through the mud.

 

[muffinplus]

Of course, criticizing someone's work ethic is dragging them through the mud.

Sure, any work ethic criticism is dragging someone through the mud. "Dragging someone through the mud" is way stronger and an intentional way to humiliate someone which this was not.

 

[Japanfan]

While still a teen, I went to a conservatory teacher (who was known to produce results), known to be tough. And he was. He himself was raised in the Soviet system, and there was definitely no mollycoddling. From the first lesson, he raised his voice, hurled insults at me, questioned my commitment and cast doubts on my talent and future potential. I felt compelled to please him, so I worked harder than ever. For six months I was miserable and my confidence was shattered but, at the same time, the advice he was giving me (verbal abuse aside) resulted in a marked improvement in my playing. So I stuck with it.

Eventually I came to expect -- and accept -- the yelling and insults, so I put my ego and feelings aside and just took in the good that he was offering me (which was a lot). Then I was fine and I stayed with him for five years. Looking back, it was the best decision I could have made, as it made me work hard, re-evaluate and revitalize my work ethic and, well... actually empowered and toughened me up to where I was emotionally ready for the hard, cold, competitive world of being a professional solo artist. And, after that tough training, nothing really rattled me.

This kind of harshness is not for everyone. And it wouldn't have been for me in my earliest years. But, at the time (age 17), it worked for me and I don't regret it at all.

Just throwing out some food for thought.

You are right that such harshness is not for everyone. Someone else, it might have broken that person's spirit. And some students might have had to stay with this coach because their parents and team insisted upon it. IMO such behavior should be punishable as it is essentially abuse.

Think of all the gymnasts who had to endure the Karolyls (sp?) for years. It true that the one student who died of anorexia (don't recall her name, think is was Christie ___?) did not do so until she had been away from Karoly for about 10 years, but even so, he could have instilled a fear of/aversion to food in her. I read about this in Joan Ryan's book 'Little Girls in Pretty Boxes'. The author talked about how Bella Karoly taught his students that eating was a weakness, and once shamed them for eating peaches.

 

[fan]

Is there a subtitled video?