Discussing Tuberidze's latest interview

[muffinplus]

You don't support it, but you also don't really condone it either. It's becoming a redundant argument at this point but it can't be emphasized enough that Eteri's methods as she herself, her students, and Daniil all describe them falls under the definition of abusive methods and we've been seeing the effects of those methods on the long term success and health of her students for 8 years now.

Massive generalization.

It is not normal to take away food from students,

I agree with that.

it's not normal to forbid a parent of a 15 years old student from living in the same city as their child (putting aside for the moment if said parent should have accepted such a demand and the hypocrisy of her forcing that on her minor student while closely shadowing her own child),

She did not really "forbid" it, she just made it a condition of Alina returning to her coaching team.... Do I think this would fly in North America, no... but that is not synymous with "abusive". She didn't want her mom to be involved in Alina's training day to day.

it's not normal that coaches proudly talk about a student being full after barely eating anything,

What are you referring to? If this is a reference to "Danny G was proud of Anna eating 2 shrimp", which at this point is an urban legend. Because he didn't say he was proud of that, but I remember this being twisted when the video interview came out. All that happens

her putting them on powders diet, or rationing water intake,

And you know for a fact that she was the one who put Yulia on powdered diet?

or accusing a student that has openly talked about struggling with disordered eating that she let go of her weight and that's why she got injured (when said student was visibly underweight at the time). I can continue with this list but I think the point has been made. There's no nuance to be discussed here, what nuance can make any of these less abusive?

Again, "accusing" is your value judgement. And yeah, the point has been made for sure...Some of your examples didn't even happen, and some of them are not straight up "abuse".

Some will read this list and think that it's all a plot against Sambo 70 because they are successful. I personally believe that anyone who reads this and doesn't feel like something is very wrong is blind, either by some weird loyalty to Eteri or simply by choice.

So... here is the thing. I think Eteri has ignorant/ outdated views on nutrition, yes. The group would benefit from having a nutrionist. She is also a coach with HARSH coaching methods who has who thinks she is right, and others are wrong, which makes her a narcissist. I don't believe this means she is wilfully abusing or starving her students though.

 

[angi]

Folks, I think we have to be careful before accusing any coach of causing harm to their students unless we know for sure that it's happening. The truth is that none of us are at the Sambo rink.

And if we are going to blame Eteri for skater injuries and other issues, then do we also blame Raf for Nathan's hip injury, requiring a surgery that took him out of Worlds, or Adam's foot injury that took him out for nearly a year? Ashley Wagner had problems as well. Michelle Kwan had a hip surgery. Frank Carroll's fault? Let's not even get into Gracie and Christopher Bowman. Hanyu sustains injuries every year and even Jason Brown has had recent ones. Do we blame those on Orser and Tracy Wilson? Plushenko had major injuries. Must be Mishin's fault, right? I suppose all of these coaches teach lousy technique.

What we do know is that Eteri is blunt, comes across as cold and has no particular filter during interviews. Her interviews are put out there for the public so, sure, we can comment on that.

But let's toe the line a bit when it comes to placing blame on coaches for physical injuries, unless we have solid proof of such a thing. The truth is that, despite major talent and stellar coaching, injuries just happen. It's a risky sport.

Several of her skaters have talked on the record about her forcing them to skate while injured which led to their injury getting much worse. That's not speculation, that's a coaching method that is guaranteed to aggravate injuries and potentially cause long-term (or even life-long) damage.
It's also a simple game of statistics, yes many skaters get injured (and even seriously injured) but the number of Sambo 70 skaters who have either dealt with a serious injury and/or retired from one before they even turned 18 is unlike any other coaching staff I can think of.
And when they proudly talk about coaching methods that are clearly leading to malnutrition in athletes - of course it's a huge contributor to injuries.

 

[muffinplus]

Folks, I think we have to be careful before accusing any coach of causing harm to their students unless we know for sure that it's happening. The truth is that none of us are at the Sambo rink.

And if we are going to blame Eteri for skater injuries and other issues, then do we also blame Raf for Nathan's hip injury, requiring a surgery that took him out of Worlds, or Adam's foot injury that took him out for nearly a year? Ashley Wagner had problems as well. Michelle Kwan had a hip surgery. Frank Carroll's fault? Let's not even get into Gracie and Christopher Bowman. Hanyu sustains injuries every year and even Jason Brown has had recent ones. Do we blame those on Orser and Tracy Wilson? Plushenko had major injuries. Must be Mishin's fault, right? I suppose all of these coaches teach lousy technique.

What we do know is that Eteri is blunt, comes across as cold and has no particular filter during interviews. Her interviews are put out there for the public so, sure, we can comment on that.

But let's toe the line a bit when it comes to placing blame on coaches for physical injuries, unless we have solid proof of such a thing. The truth is that, despite major talent and stellar coaching, injuries just happen. It's a risky sport.

Your post is too nuanced. I agree with you, but nobody cares. They made up their mind already.

 

[canbelto]

I think the depressing thing is that Eteri herself seems so unhappy. The way she bitches about her pupils and her life seems like she doesn't actually enjoy what she does. It's that negativity that I find depressing. It's in enough interviews that I think it's part of who she is.

 

[olympic]

This 'Fran' character editorializes and pontificates her loony viewpoints ad infinitum. I find it all rather exhausting and strongly caution citing her videos as a creditable source.

Withal,I am grateful this Eteri woman does not coach our American ladies. Regardless of her training methods,she has already bastardized ladies figure skating into monotonous gymnastics on ice.

-BB

There is a 'Fran' that pops on my Twitter feed and posts FS items all the time. I wonder if that is the same person ...

ETA - It is because s/he has the same avatar on both Twitter and You Tube

 

[Trillian]

And if we are going to blame Eteri for skater injuries and other issues, then do we also blame Raf for Nathan's hip injury, requiring a surgery that took him out of Worlds, or Adam's foot injury that took him out for nearly a year? Ashley Wagner had problems as well. Michelle Kwan had a hip surgery. Frank Carroll's fault? Let's not even get into Gracie and Christopher Bowman. Hanyu sustains injuries every year and even Jason Brown has had recent ones.

Literally none of those skaters had career-ending injuries as teenagers, and most skated into adulthood. I’m so baffled that every time someone mentions that Eteri’s skaters pretty much universally end their competitive careers due to injury when they’re barely out of childhood, the argument in response is, “But [list of every skater who’s ever been off the ice temporarily with an injury].” That’s an important topic in its own right, but… really not the conversation we’re having.

 

[muffinplus]

Literally none of those skaters had career-ending injuries as teenagers, and most skated into adulthood. I’m so baffled that every time someone mentions that Eteri’s skaters pretty much universally end their competitive careers due to injury when they’re barely out of childhood, the argument in response is, “But [list of every skater who’s ever been off the ice temporarily with an injury].” That’s an important topic in its own right, but… really not the conversation we’re having.

Viveca Lindfors. Back injury retired at 20 plus. Pogorlaya.. back injury, gone in 20s. Sotnikova has screws in her spine.

 

[Trillian]

Viveca Lindfors. Back injury retired at 20 plus. Pogorlaya.. back injury, gone in 20s. Sotnikova has screws in her spine.

And again, one-off examples of skaters are not the point. That’s a systemic problem in figure skating. Who are the coaches whose skaters are almost universally leaving the sport young and broken? If that’s the consistent track record of any coach, it warrants scrutiny. I’m sure there are others out there, but pointing at Orser and Arutunian - who have both coached lots of successful skaters well into adulthood - is a weird comparison to draw and doesn’t do Eteri any favors.

 

[tony]

Literally none of those skaters had career-ending injuries as teenagers, and most skated into adulthood. I’m so baffled that every time someone mentions that Eteri’s skaters pretty much universally end their competitive careers due to injury when they’re barely out of childhood, the argument in response is, “But [list of every skater who’s ever been off the ice temporarily with an injury].” That’s an important topic in its own right, but… really not the conversation we’re having.

Literally Lipinski's career ended before she was 20. Literally Hughes finished her career in very similar fashion to Zagitova. Literally Stellato had a major injury and retired for 15 years at age 17, just months after her Junior Worlds medal. Naomi Nari Nam was injured by the time she was 16 or 17 and sat out a few years before she attempted a comeback. Elizabeth Kwon was someone a lot of fans had pegged as the 'next one' and I'm pretty sure she was done by age 15 because of injury. Louann Donovan broke a bone in her foot at her first senior international and retired at 18. Katy Taylor was a 4CC medalist and had injuries that stopped her career at 17. Are these examples okay?

This is just going to go in circles, but aside from interviews and speculation about what is going on at the rink, I don't understand why people continue to make these claims as if there's a huge ratio of skaters suddenly getting injured. If you want to use a comparative basis, look at the world rankings every season for the last 20 years, and you'll see that there are always many skaters near the top who are injured and/or end their careers early. People posting on a figure skating message board already know this, but they refuse to apply equal criteria to all the other similarly-ranked skaters. If you look at the current top 30 in the World Standings, almost every single one of those skaters have had some kind of major injury- some of them out for a long period of time and/or repeatedly have small injuries. 5 of the top 30 are Tutberidze students, which means more chance for injury from a single camp, yet almost every other woman is or has been in the same boat.

The young women are trying difficult jumps, much more difficult than we saw before 2017 or 2018, and there were still a big amount of injuries and early retirements across the world since triple jumps came into play. Quads aren't really making the injuries worse, and I promise if anyone actually looked at injury lists throughout the years, they'd see the same.

 

[mjb52]

We never even really used to know about skaters outside the top ones. Maybe a little, or the most involved fans did, but for most more passive followers of the sport, it was far from the degree to which we do now. We get invested in junior skaters that before we would never even have heard of. So I think that distorts our perspective a little.

 

[tony]

We never even really used to know about skaters outside the top ones. Maybe a little, or the most involved fans did, but for most more passive followers of the sport, it was far from the degree to which we do now. We get invested in junior skaters that before we would never even have heard of. So I think that distorts our perspective a little.

Well yeah, most people never had the opportunity to see many of the junior-level skaters. The JGP was never shown. In the US and Canada we never saw the earlier flights at the Championships. The Grand Prix events only featured the top 5 or so, etc.

But those skaters were there with the same problems and at the same rate we see today, without the triple Axels or quads. Because one doesn't know or do the research to know doesn't mean that it didn't happen. And this is not to get an argument about how the sport is too dangerous or that the problems shouldn't be there. It's to show that this isn't all started or becoming more typical because of one Ms. Tutberdize.

 

[Trillian]

Are these examples okay?

Those are examples of skaters, not coaches, so no, I don’t think it’s the point at all. Some of those skaters absolutely did have problematic coaches, others are just more evidence of systemic issues in the sport. The point is that no coach or coaching team should lose the vast majority of their students to chronic injuries and/or eating disorders by the age of 20. That is not normal, even within the overall problematic world of skating. Any coach at any level with a track record like that needs to change something. It’s always a problem. It’s never okay.

I agree with you that the quads are not the problem and that the overall injury rate in skating is high. But when it’s basically every single one of a coach’s students? That’s always tended to raise some eyebrows. And it should.

 

[tony]

Those are examples of skaters, not coaches, so no, I don’t think it’s the point at all. Some of those skaters absolutely did have problematic coaches, others are just more evidence of systemic issues in the sport. The point is that no coach or coaching team should lose the vast majority of their students to chronic injuries and/or eating disorders by the age of 20. That is not normal, even within the overall problematic world of skating. Any coach at any level with a track record like that needs to change something. It’s always a problem. It’s never okay.

I agree with you that the quads are not the problem and that the overall injury rate in skating is high. But when it’s basically every single one of a coach’s students? That’s always tended to raise some eyebrows. And it should.

So even though the ratio of injury and retirement amongst top junior-level skaters for the last X amount of years (let's say 25) is pretty consistent, because Tutberidze has more (top level) to pick from, she's the problem? I just don't get the logic behind that argument. Some statistician here has to tell me how this makes any sense. I think the major thing here is that all sports are dangerous to a degree and no matter what is put in place, injuries are not avoidable. The skaters themselves understand this risk a whole lot more than fans seem to. We've seen enough skaters injure themselves quite severely mid-competition, on jumps they've done thousands of times before, to be oblivious. All it takes is one awkward landing or getting lost in the air to end a career.

Some skaters get through their careers with little to no injury, but it's not that common. See Butyrskaya as one rare example. I was watching some clips from a USFS cheesefest recently that I forgotten she had skated at (fall of 2000) and the ABC commentators were mentioning how she was out on the practice ice trying to do the triple Axel again, a jump she was landing in practice 4-5 years earlier. She was 28 at that point. In her entire career, she never withdrew from anything due to injury and she also took some of the hardest, most awkward falls we've ever seen in the sport.

 

[Karen-W]

So even though the ratio of injury and retirement amongst top junior-level skaters for the last X amount of years (let's say 25) is pretty consistent, because Tutberidze has more (top level) to pick from, she's the problem? I just don't get the logic behind that argument. Some statistician here has to tell me how this makes any sense.

Some skaters get through their careers with little to no injury, but it's not that common. See Butyrskaya as one rare example. I was watching some clips from a USFS cheesefest recently that I forgotten she had skated at (fall of 2000) and the ABC commentators were mentioning how she was out on the practice ice trying to do the triple Axel again, a jump she was landing in practice 4-5 years earlier. She was 28 at that point. In her entire career, she never withdrew from anything due to injury and she also took some of the hardest, most awkward falls we've ever seen in the sport.

But I don't think the argument is that Eteri's ratio of injured skaters is equal to the ratio across the sport. It seems like the argument is that her ratio is higher. If that's the case, then, yes, it is a problem.

 

[muffinplus]

Those are examples of skaters, not coaches, so no, I don’t think it’s the point at all. Some of those skaters absolutely did have problematic coaches, others are just more evidence of systemic issues in the sport. The point is that no coach or coaching team should lose the vast majority of their students to chronic injuries and/or eating disorders by the age of 20. That is not normal, even within the overall problematic world of skating. Any coach at any level with a track record like that needs to change something. It’s always a problem. It’s never okay.

I agree with you that the quads are not the problem and that the overall injury rate in skating is high. But when it’s basically every single one of a coach’s students? That’s always tended to raise some eyebrows. And it should.

Who is every single one of Eteri skaters who retired with chronic injuries though? Lipnitskaya had an eating disorder... I'm not sure what ultimately was the cause of her retirement when she was with Urmanov. Zagitova retired because she had no motivation and too much competition in Russia. Medvedeva - yes we know retired because she was injured. Tursynbaeva said her back problem was caused by Bertolotti's syndrome, not Eteri training methods. Kanysheva - yes, had injury problem. The thing is... All/a lot of Eteri students are very high profile, so it will look noticeable when some of them get injured. But in proportion to everyone else, is it really that a higher percentage of her students get injured?

 

[Trillian]

So even though the ratio of injury and retirement amongst top junior-level skaters for the last X amount of years (let's say 25) is pretty consistent, because Tutberidze has more (top level) to pick from, she's the problem? I just don't get the logic behind that argument. Some statistician here has to tell me how this makes any sense.

Has she had any student manage to compete at a high level without a precipitous drop-off past the age of 20? Because if not, that’s 100% of her students. And even if one or two have made it out okay, the vast majority have not. Are you arguing that 100% or close to 100% of all top up-and-coming skaters have been driven out by injury by age 20 throughout the entire sport for X number of years? Because if not, then Eteri’s percentage is higher than average. I’m not sure we need a statistician for that one.

 

[tony]

But I don't think the argument is that Eteri's ratio of injured skaters is equal to the ratio across the sport. It seems like the argument is that her ratio is higher. If that's the case, then, yes, it is a problem.

Over the course of 3 or 4 posts in these threads, I've named a ton of international-level junior skaters who were top 10 at Junior Worlds and/or JGP finalists or whatever that were retired by age 20- almost all of them because of a documented injury. The list is long, and it features skaters from all over the globe. American fans should know how many junior skaters over the years either never made it out of juniors or crashed and burned with injury as soon as they went to the senior level.

But 'I didn't know about those skaters' seems to be the counterargument.

Has she had any student manage to compete at a high level without a precipitous drop-off past the age of 20? Because if not, that’s 100% of her students. And even if one or two have made it out okay, the vast majority have not. Are you arguing that 100% or close to 100% of all top up-and-coming skaters have been driven out by injury by age 20 throughout the entire sport for X number of years? Because if not, then Eteri’s percentage is higher than average. I’m not sure we need a statistician for that one.

Even though there are a bunch of people here who think they know it all about that rink, the name of the game for the Russian women right now is to stay competitive or get left behind. Because some know they are being passed by and they want to move on with life (or opportunities) doesn't mean all of them are retiring because of serious injury. Not everyone can or wants to be a Leonova and not everyone is in the sport for participation points. There is a lot of money to be made outside of ISU competition for those skaters, so why not take those opportunities? This is true of MANY Russian skaters these days past Eteri's camp. So your point is?

 

[Trillian]

Over the course of 3 or 4 posts in these threads, I've named a ton of international-level junior skaters who were top 10 at Junior Worlds and/or JGP finalists or whatever that were retired by age 20- almost all of them because of a documented injury. The list is long, and it features skaters from all over the globe. American fans should know how many junior skaters over the years either never made it out of juniors or crashed and burned with injury as soon as they went to the senior level.

But 'I didn't know about those skaters' seems to be the counterargument.

I do know about those skaters, but thanks. The point is that it’s not anywhere near every skater (unless you do feel that every single female skater’s elite career is over by 20?), whereas is Eteri’s case, it is virtually every skater. “Some skaters get seriously injured or has a serious eating disorder” ≠ “every skater gets seriously injured or has a serious eating disorder.” The difference between those two statements is the entire point here. A list of forgotten junior ladies is irrelevant to that discussion, unless you list every junior lady ever and explain how their competitive careers were all over by 20 years old.

 

[muffinplus]

Has she had any student manage to compete at a high level without a precipitous drop-off past the age of 20? Because if not, that’s 100% of her students. And even if one or two have made it out okay, the vast majority have not. Are you arguing that 100% or close to 100% of all top up-and-coming skaters have been driven out by injury by age 20 throughout the entire sport for X number of years? Because if not, then Eteri’s percentage is higher than average. I’m not sure we need a statistician for that one.

It's a Russia problem. Not an Eteri problem. It's like when people point out Kostner's longevity when she had no competition in Italy for years

 

[canbelto]

I think the point is that Eteri herself has admitted to putting Yulia on a "powder" diet, to restricting food and water intake, to calling Evgenia fat. These aren't just accusations these are things she herself admits to.

But I get that the Eteri stans are out in full force.

 

[tony]

Yeah, shall we look at the Russian women for the last 10+ years and see where they ended up? Let's check all the non-Team Tutberidze skaters:

Leonova and Tuktamysheva we all know about. Gubanova is 19. Samodurova is 19. Guliakova is 19 (and WD from Nationals).

Doronina - Last international at 18 or 19. Was Russian Champion 2 years in a row.
Petushkova - Retired at 18. Went to Europeans.
Kozireva - Retired at 16.
Gerboldt - stopped singles career at 20 after a poor season. Tried pairs.
Zaseeva - retired at 16.
Gozeva - Retired at 20. Went to Europeans.
Ovcharova - skated for Russia and then Switzerland, retired at 18.
Shelepen - finished her career with Sokolovskaya at 17, tried to skate for Israel but had ankle injury from after her time with Tutberidze.
Makarova - last international competition was at 19. Retired from hip injury.
Sotnikova- last competed at age 19, had chronic injuries that stopped her from making a comeback.
Radionova - last competed at age 18, had back injury that forced her into retirement.
Proklova - last competed at age 14, fractured her leg in on-ice fall.
Sakhanovich - last competed at age 19, finishing 12th at Nationals (coached by Plushenko).
Pogorilaya - last competed at age 19, the Skate Canada and then continued to have serious back problems.
Gosviani - had torn ligaments at age 17. Attempted a comeback for a different country and lasted to 19.
Artemieva - retired at 22.
Biryukova - stopped singles at age 19, tried to be a pair skater, lasted to 21.
Pervushkina - retired at 17, finished last at her final Nationals.
Agofanova - retired at 17, finished 16th at her final Nationals.
Sotskova - Stopped at 19, had the ban from skating.
Staviyskaya - Stopped singles at 17, tried to be an ice dancer.
Korobeynikova - Retired at 17, having been as high as 4th at Europeans.
Fedichkina - last competition at 16, had injuries
Konstantinova - made it to 20 in competition, now enjoying other opportunities?
Mikhailova - last competition at 15.
Panenkova - left Tutberidze with no injury(?) to train with Tsareva and retired at 18 to become a coach.
Tarusina - last competition right after she turned 16. Retied due to long-term injuries from bus accident.
Vasilieva - joint problems stopped her singles career at 16, tried pairs.
Frolova - last seen in competition at 15.

A list of forgotten junior ladies is irrelevant to that discussion, unless you list every junior lady ever and explain how their competitive careers were all over by 20 years old.

So out of this entire list of bios available (and I'm sure with more work I can find more info for those who didn't have one), I believe ONE woman outside of Tutkamysheva and Leonova has shown up at Nationals past 20 years old since 2010 - Maria Artemieva.

 

[Trillian]

Yeah, shall we look at the Russian women for the last 10+ years and see where they ended up?

Yeah, that’s not a great list. So maybe the entire culture of Russian skating is a problem, but that tends not to be a popular suggestion either. Eteri’s style has been dominant for a while now, so it may be a little chicken-or-egg, but either way there’s something wrong if nearly every single skater has an expiration date in her late teens. Whether it’s Eteri’s problem or Russia’s problem, it’s a problem.

Of the countries with deep enough fields to have many high level competitors, many skaters stop competing in their late teens, but not all of them - and not that often with such serious long-term fallout. If you look at the years since top skaters have had more financial opportunities in competition, the U.S. and Japan have both had periods of being very competitive internationally and most of their world/Olympic medalists (ETA: or other top national skaters, to expand the group even more) have not been forced to retire by 20 years old. Again, it’s a “some skaters” vs. “all skaters” discussion. “All skaters retire as teenagers” has never been the norm anywhere before (in the modern era), and the times it started to head in that direction, people rightly called it a problem. I think its a huge disservice to the skaters if we see this happening and shrug it off as normal.

 

[MacMadame]

"Unfair" is key. And intentional is key. You are acting like she said this on purpose in order to be nasty (which is basically just your value judgement, because obviously what else could be?) so that Zagitova would not get invited to shows ( )as opposed to just recounting a story.

"Just recounting a story" that makes someone else look bad.

Folks, I think we have to be careful before accusing any coach of causing harm to their students unless we know for sure that it's happening. The truth is that none of us are at the Sambo rink.

The things that upset me about Sambo 70 are things that the coaches and skaters there have said are going on.

So maybe the entire culture of Russian skating is a problem,

It's not a Russia problem or an Eteri problem. It's a skating problem with bad coaches who train in a way that encourages eating disorders and injury all over the world.

ETA I do think skating has gotten smarter about eating disorders. It's not as much progress as I'd like to see but it is progress.

 

[hanca]

Yeah, that’s not a great list. So maybe the entire culture of Russian skating is a problem, but that tends not to be a popular suggestion either. Eteri’s style has been dominant for a while now, so it may be a little chicken-or-egg, but either way there’s something wrong if nearly every single skater has an expiration date in her late teens. Whether it’s Eteri’s problem or Russia’s problem, it’s a problem.

That’s called competition. Skaters choose to retire and move on with their lives when they feel that they are not competitive anyway. It is expensive sport. I know it must be tempting to blame Russia, but this would happen in any country if there were so many talented skaters. Even Medvedeva managed to stay on top only for a few years. Even if she didn’t have any injuries, what she was doing wouldn’t be enough; the girls who came after her already have 3A and quads. The technical difficulty is increasing and these new youngsters are much better than Zagitova and Medvedeva were. And it is quite likely that the skaters that are going to come in five years time will be better than those who are considered great now.

 

[muffinplus]

"Just recounting a story" that makes someone else look bad.

I don't know why you are so hellbent on thinking she told that story to make Zagitova look bad... it literally sounds ridiculous.

By the way the 2nd half of the interview was out and she said nice things about Kostornaia and Trusova (gasp), must be because they are still skating for her... oh wait she is supposed to s**t on every one of her skaters.

 

[MacMadame]

I don't know why you are so hellbent on thinking she told that story to make Zagitova look bad... it literally sounds ridiculous.

I don't know why you won't admit that the story makes Zag look bad. It's weird.

 

[Trillian]

That’s called competition. Skaters choose to retire and move on with their lives when they feel that they are not competitive anyway. It is expensive sport. I know it must be tempting to blame Russia, but this would happen in any country if there were so many talented skaters.

It’s not a problem when skaters choose to move on with their lives. I agree that that happens regularly, including in Russia. It is a problem when the skaters don’t have a choice because they physically cannot compete anymore, and have health repercussions for years afterwards.

Russia is not the only country that has ever had a talented, deep ladies field. Every country has talent; it’s the coaching and athletic infrastructure that develops it. But in most cases when other countries have had very strong programs (including Japan right at this very moment), at least some of the top senior skaters have been able to sustain competitive careers into their 20s. Any other scenario I can remember in this sport where a bunch of kids were getting hurt, the popular response was, “Hmm, we should try to do something about that,” and not, “Don’t worry, look, we have another one over here!” Sure, lots of bad things happen in skating and obviously the responses are often inadequate, but at least there is traditionally some concern. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many people argue that actually, we should allow and maybe even encourage the bad things to keep happening to these children without making any attempt to help them. What a bizarre conversation.

 

[tony]

It’s not a problem when skaters choose to move on with their lives. I agree that that happens regularly, including in Russia. It is a problem when the skaters don’t have a choice because they physically cannot compete anymore, and have health repercussions for years afterwards.

Russia is not the only country that has ever had a talented, deep ladies field. Every country has talent; it’s the coaching and athletic infrastructure that develops it. But in most cases when other countries have had very strong programs (including Japan right at this very moment), at least some of the top senior skaters have been able to sustain competitive careers into their 20s. Any other scenario I can remember in this sport where a bunch of kids were getting hurt, the popular response was, “Hmm, we should try to do something about that,” and not, “Don’t worry, look, we have another one over here!” Sure, lots of bad things happen in skating and obviously the responses are often inadequate, but at least there is traditionally some concern.

I'm trying to follow which direction each argument goes and there are people arguing a bunch of different things here. You (and others) specifically tried to argue that Eteri's skaters are the ones retiring before 20, I disproved that and showed that as far as Russia goes in the last 12 years, only Mishin and Rukavicin (who had 2 of the 3 21+ skaters I referenced) can say anything at all. The rest of the coaches, and there are a lot of them, have a 100% retirement rate for their female skaters before they turn 21.

Next, I'm sorry but the depth in Russia for a while now has not been comparable to any other generation of skating for the women. Never in Japan, never in the US. Skaters down towards the bottom of the 18 at Russian Nationals are doing 5 or 6 triple programs sometimes. When has the US ever had more than a solid 5 or 6 skaters, if that? I provided you a huge list in which some of these Russian skaters did not have any mention of injury in their careers upon retirement. But what is it that they are doing when they retire? Often, they are still staying involved in the sport or going to University. No one is required to stay skating competitively into their 20's and sometimes we see skaters that really don't have interest or the drive in the sport anymore once they are 'adults'. The Russian culture may be more set up to achieving success (or not getting to that level) and then moving on, maybe not. But not everyone can keep a serious, 5x a week in a rink interest like Leonova, Butyrskaya, Slutskaya, and Tuktamysheva.

If bad technique was one of the reasons that skaters have these serious injuries, then Satoko Miyahara would be a prime example of someone whose ankles should've been long done for because of her habitual severe underrotating. There's so much 'because of bad coaching technique, injuries happen' talk, but I'm still sticking to the concept that the ice is slippery, the skaters are always pushing to improve, and things still happen. How is it different than a tennis player, who has played a ton of matches, sliding awkwardly on a surface and twisting their ankle? These are split-second jumps and constant wear on the body as it is from all elements, even without mistakes. Everything has to be in perfect alignment on the jumps to get it right, and the skater can't always be perfect. And when they are perfect, there's still a bunch of force going into their lower backs, their hips, and their knees. This is proven physics of skating; anything else is guesswork to fit a narrative.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many people argue that actually, we should allow and maybe even encourage the bad things to keep happening to these children. What a bizarre conversation.

Then I'd suggest you to just advocate for the total shutdown of any skating before the skaters turn 18- not even for fun. Not one person is arguing that 'bad things' should happen, but I believe the skaters themselves (the actual athletes) understand the risks. You seem to think the risk can go away somehow. It's not going to.

 

[Trillian]

Then I'd suggest you to just advocate for the total shutdown of any skating before the skaters turn 18- not even for fun. Not one person is arguing that 'bad things' should happen, but I believe the skaters themselves (the actual athletes) understand the risks. You seem to think the risk can go away somehow. It's not going to.

If you think there’s no possible way skaters can compete without the majority having long term health consequences due to childhood training and no chance of a career as an adult, I disagree. There are systemic problems; it’s not an inevitable consequence of lacing up a pair of skates. And if there are more problems in one place than others, which there are right now, any adult involved has a responsibility to try to fix the problems. If your approach is to pass off any damage to children as the cost of doing business, we’re not going to find common ground on that.

And no, children and teenagers absolutely do not understand the risks, even when they think they do. That’s a pretty well-researched part of human cognitive development. So if that’s part of the basic premise for shrugging off injuries and eating disorders, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one, too.

 

[hanca]

Next, I'm sorry but the depth in Russia for a while now has not been comparable to any other generation of skating for the women. Never in Japan, never in the US. Skaters down towards the bottom of the 18 at Russian Nationals are doing 5 or 6 triple programs sometimes. When has the US ever had more than a solid 5 or 6 skaters, if that? I provided you a huge list in which some of these Russian skaters did not have any mention of injury in their careers upon retirement. But what is it that they are doing when they retire? Often, they are still staying involved in the sport or going to University. No one is required to stay skating competitively into their 20's and sometimes we see skaters that really don't have interest or the drive in the sport anymore once they are 'adults'. The Russian culture may be more set up to achieving success (or not getting to that level) and then moving on, maybe not. But not everyone can keep a serious, 5x a week in a rink interest like Leonova, Butyrskaya, Slutskaya, and Tuktamysheva.

In Russia? Skaters down the bottom of the 18 at the Russian nationals usually do 7 triples FS. The only reason why they are at the bottom is because they do a mistake on a jump, have fall or mess up something and that is enough to get towards the bottom. But to qualify in this field in Russia, no one can qualify if they don’t have the full seven triples FS.