Decisions of the ISU Council: Stockholm Worlds (March 22-28) still on; Synchro Worlds cancelled; 2021 Grand Prix schedule/Beijing test event announced

tony

Well-Known Member
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9,696
I don't think Worlds should go ahead at all. But if they are stupid enough to forge ahead with it, then the Russians shouldn't be allowed to come. They don't get to put other countries' skaters, coaches and officials at risk because they've decided the rules don't apply to them. I think it's laughable that you think the Worlds team is magically exempt from all the risk-taking, rule-breaking behaviour we've seen this season when they're a big part of it! How many times have we seen Mishin shoving his mask down under his chin? Queen Tuk, much as I love her, was one of the skaters happily hugging and kissing other skaters at the illicit banquet.
And there we have it. It's so obvious that several of the posters here are hiding behind a bunch of other reasons when that is the only issue they really have. Every country has different rules. There were plenty of people in the audience at Russian events with no masks at all - obviously it isn't enforced there as absolute rule. If everyone is being tested and monitored and having to wear masks while at Worlds, then I don't get your deal. Here's a news flash: a lot of skaters outside of Russia and a lot of people in general are doing a lot more than barricading themselves at home. Brendan Kerry, for starters? Should he have been banned pre-injury? Or do you get to pick and choose?

I also said this is a simple fix by the ISU providing masks that don't slip down below the nose to have half of skating Twitter 'cancel Worlds' erupt about how they were right about everything.

The main reason people are concerned about the Russians is because we know the ISU won't have the spine to do anything about it if they do come and start breaking rules. They didn't have the spine to do anything about Rostelecom, after all. I'd be less worried if the ISU came out with a hardline stance after Rostelecom and removed the accreditation from the event and said look, there will be consequences if you don't adhere. But they didn't. Does anyone really think that if one of the big-name Russian coaches refused to wear their mask properly at Worlds they'd be thrown out? Or what if it's one of the skaters? Do you really think, for example, that if Kolyada refused to wear his mask he would be disqualified from the event?
No, most people are hiding behind pathetic reasons and I've been saying this is surely their real reason for a few weeks now. Finally you are the first to admit it at FSU as far as I know, and the comments on Jackie's post are finally coming around to that, too. But WTF are people doing complaining about Russians being banned when Jackie and others are trying to pass it off like skaters don't want to go/are being forced? You know the skaters don't feel that way, don't try to claim such.

Your example about Tutberidze going to Florida just made me laugh because let's be honest, she wouldn't need to kick up a fuss about wearing a mask in Florida.
You don't live here. I do. The rules are still the same in planes and airports. I've asked twice- do you think she was really making a scene about not wearing a mask throughout her journeys?

And guess what? Miami was actually behind in loosening the regulations compared to most of the state and there are still a lot of requirements here. But by all means, pass along your assumed info as fact when I see what's happening daily.

Don't watch Worlds if you don't want it to happen.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
Messages
20,606
And there we have it. It's so obvious that several of the posters here are hiding behind a bunch of other reasons when that is the only issue they really have. Every country has different rules. There were plenty of people in the audience at Russian events with no masks at all - obviously it isn't enforced there as absolute rule. If everyone is being tested and monitored and having to wear masks while at Worlds, then I don't get your deal.
Forget the Russians for a minute.

I don't think Worlds should go ahead anyway.

If you'd actually read my posts - for quite a number of weeks now on the subject - my objection is actually, primarily, Sweden. One of the most incompetent and irresponsible responses to the pan-demic, who have still been resisting proper measures and only just started doing it, and where numbers are going up.

But I also don't think it's right to just dismiss the very real concerns about the behaviour of the Russian skaters and coaches as just some kind of partisan behaviour, either.

By the way guys, just because some sports are going ahead - doesn't mean it's not stupid for them to do it!
 

tony

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,696
Forget the Russians for a minute.

I don't think Worlds should go ahead anyway.

If you'd actually read my posts - for quite a number of weeks now on the subject - my objection is actually, primarily, Sweden. One of the most incompetent and irresponsible responses to the pan-demic, who have still been resisting proper measures and only just started doing it, and where numbers are going up.

But I also don't think it's right to just dismiss the very real concerns about the behaviour of the Russian skaters and coaches as just some kind of partisan behaviour, either.

By the way guys, just because some sports are going ahead - doesn't mean it's not stupid for them to do it!
So about Brendan Kerry, should he have been banned pre-Worlds as well for what was shared through social media? Or just Russians?

And since you won't answer - I do believe that Tutberidze, Mishin, and the rest of the coaches and skaters will abide by the rules that are communicated to them pre- and during Worlds, just as Tutberidze did when she was traveling. This is a pre-Olympic Worlds, everyone is going to try their best to make this event run successfully, and whether you hate the Russians or not, they aren't going to go against protocols.

The US had much worse numbers when they hosted two larger-scale events that required plenty of airport traveling and hotel stays. Not one case reported out of these events. Just because a country isn't doing well doesn't mean that the air you breathe in once getting into the country suddenly makes you get CV. You don't seem to get that logic. Swedish cases are holding steady. They have implemented more rules that likely make it even better for Worlds to go on during this period.

Once again, no skater had to get up and go to the rink daily to train. No skater had to go to any international in other countries this year, maybe with CV rates much higher than the country they are from. But you know what? Plenty of them did it. Don't start with the 'I care most about Sweden' stuff when if you really cared, I would expect you would be policing everyone into staying home completely and not even going to the rink to practice.

I mean, you are the one sharing some inconclusive assumptive data about ice rinks to begin with. So pick your focus - is it Sweden? Is it the rinks themselves? Is it the Russians only? Is it that the skaters are being 'forced'?
 

4rkidz

plotting, planning and travelling
Messages
12,674
Sweden's 7-day average is inching upward but still pretty flat compared to Norway and Finland.
Source? According to this Sweden continues to leave the other nordic countries in the dust in current cases and deaths. Likely why some of the athletes are sharing their concerns knowing as a country its not exactly putting safety first? I say this as someone who is looking forward to Worlds and still hopes it happens but I also appreciate concerns raised by Jackie. This is not like US Nationals that did an excellent job with strict protocols etc this is Sweden. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102257/cumulative-********-cases-in-the-nordics/
 

greenapple

Well-Known Member
Messages
920
I don't know where the fairytale of skaters being forced to go to Worlds originated, but it is obvious from all the comments skaters are posting that they can't wait to compete in Stockholm. The entry numbers alone speak for themselves. It defies reason that all the people signed up are being forced to do something they have all been waiting a year to do.
 
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overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
29,846
I don't know where the fairy tale of skaters being forced to go to Worlds originated, but it is obvious from all the comments skaters are posting that they can't wait to compete in Stockholm. The entry numbers alone speak for themselves. It defies reason that all the people signed up are being forced to do something they have all been waiting a year to do.

I don't see anyone in this thread saying that all the skaters are being forced to compete. IMO it's reasonable to ask if any of them are uncomfortable with travelling away from home and competing, given that there's a worldwide p*nd*m*c, but are going anyway.
 

tony

Well-Known Member
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9,696
I don't see anyone in this thread saying that all the skaters are being forced to compete. IMO it's reasonable to ask if any of them are uncomfortable with travelling away from home and competing, given that there's a worldwide p*nd*m*c, but are going anyway.
Are you just purposely carrying on with supposed hypotheticals? Do you just want to find a way for Worlds not to happen? Which skaters, who made the effort to go compete to get into Worlds in one way or another (virtual review, competitions, Nationals, internationals, whatever) are now being forced after spending all year on the ice?

Please tell me which skaters you think are in this boat since this is the second post you've suggested the possibility that even one of them has to go that doesn't want to.
 

tony

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,696
Source? According to this Sweden continues to leave the other nordic countries in the dust in current cases and deaths. Likely why some of the athletes are sharing their concerns knowing as a country its not exactly putting safety first? I say this as someone who is looking forward to Worlds and still hopes it happens but I also appreciate concerns raised by Jackie. This is not like US Nationals that did an excellent job with strict protocols etc this is Sweden. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102257/cumulative-********-cases-in-the-nordics/
Your source is cumulative since the beginning of this. I'm quite sure you can see that part of the stat.

- since it doesn't save the formatting, switch the graph to one week or two weeks. It's holding pretty steady and nothing like the number you're trying to use as evidence for now.

Once again, the US was in much worse shape when they had their events, with no problems.
 

mjb52

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,792
Source? According to this Sweden continues to leave the other nordic countries in the dust in current cases and deaths. Likely why some of the athletes are sharing their concerns knowing as a country its not exactly putting safety first? I say this as someone who is looking forward to Worlds and still hopes it happens but I also appreciate concerns raised by Jackie. This is not like US Nationals that did an excellent job with strict protocols etc this is Sweden. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102257/cumulative-********-cases-in-the-nordics/

As Tony said, those are cumulative cases over the past year. 7 day average shows whether cases are increasing or declining right now.

People didn't even wear masks in Australia at all for most of this nor do they appear to be required to EVEN NOW ffs (you may of course correct me if I am mistaken about this) so why an Australian is so obsessed with policing what Russians found it appropriate to do in RUSSIA is beyond me. Every country has different rules. Russian skaters were in RUSSIA. They were subject to RUSSIA's rules. Russia gets to decide what it deems appropriate for its citizens just like Australia got to decide what was appropriate for its citizens. At Worlds, all countries' skaters will be subject to the rules of the ISU and of Sweden.

Here is what AUSTRALIA's OFFICIAL GOVERNMENTAL WEBSITE Says: Where there is low community transmission of *********-19, wearing a mask in the community when you are well is not generally recommended.
 
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greenapple

Well-Known Member
Messages
920
I say this as someone who is looking forward to Worlds and still hopes it happens but I also appreciate concerns raised by Jackie. This is not like US Nationals that did an excellent job with strict protocols etc this is Sweden. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102257/cumulative-********-cases-in-the-nordics/
The ISU has already tested out its bubble at a speed skating or short track event (can't recall which right now) that had way more people involved and had zero problems. The U.S. is not the only entity that can host a safe competition. Given that the ISU has not held a figure skating competition in over a year, how could anyone possibly comment on or criticize the ISU for how it will manage Worlds? I believe it will be so tightly controlled that anyone who makes one wrong move will be out in a flash - no matter who they are.
 

Karen-W

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Messages
6,076
As Tony said, those are cumulative cases over the past year. 7 day average shows whether cases are increasing or declining right now.
As far as I can tell, it does look like cases are trending slightly upward in Sweden right now but it's hard to tell because they only report numbers 4 days/week. I think the Swedish authorities have the right of it by trying to warn people right now and taking some activities off the table for the time being, so that it doesn't turn into a true spike. In essence, they MIGHT be on the verge of a third wave. Or not. Only time will tell.

As far as Worlds is concerned, it is taking place in a bubble and once skaters and officials enter the bubble, they won't be leaving it, so I'm not that concerned about what might or might not be happening trendwise in Stockholm in another 2 weeks when the skaters arrive and enter their bubble.
 
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mjb52

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4,792
Yes, that is what I said earlier, I was just explaining what the 7 day average is to that poster, since they didn't seem familiar with it.
 

mjb52

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4,792
Australia:
the ACT: the use of face masks is not generally required
New South Wales: In Greater Sydney (including Wollongong, Central Coast and Blue Mountains)face masks are mandatory on public transport including taxis and rideshare services.
the Northern Territory: Wearing a face mask is one of the tools to prevent the spread of *********-19. Wearing a face mask in the NT is not mandatory and is at the discretion of individuals.
Queensland: Face masks will remain mandatory in all Queensland airports and on domestic flights.
south Australia: Masks are no longer mandatory for people in health care settings.
Victoria unsurprisingly has the strictest rules so I will just link to them: https://www.********.vic.gov.au/face-masks-when-wear-face-mask#when-do-i-need-to-wear-a-face-mask
Western Australia: You must wear a face mask at an airport, travelling on an aircraft, or transporting a person subject to a quarantine direction (e.g. in a personal vehicle, private car, hired car, ride-share vehicle or taxi). If you are under a quarantine direction, you must wear a face mask when you present for a *********-19 test.

So basically on public transport or in airports in most places.
 

carriecmu0503

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Messages
346
I swear, most of the complaining comes from this bolded part but just blanketed inside a bunch of other stuff. Russia does not have the same protocols as Australia. Where have they proven that they can't be trusted to do so, and which protocols? Like I said, Tutberidze got on a flight to Miami and I am 100% sure she didn't argue with the people on the plane about which rules she was going to follow. She simply abided by the rules of the situation, and I'm certain that with this being Worlds, and a pre-Olympic one at that, everyone will be on their best behavior. So don't speak as if it's proof of anything. If you're in Florida or soon to be Texas and you're out at a bar or generally disregarding mask rules, guess what? In most situations, you aren't breaking rules.

Second - the. skaters. are. going. to. the. rink. every. day. as. it. is. They aren't up and skating after a year of sitting at home doing nothing. So what exactly is the point you're trying to make about indoor rinks being such a hotbed of risk when the US has run two competitions without one instance and most skaters have been on the ice 5x a week for the last 8 or 9 months?

Because some people are ridiculously miserable and bitter that at this point, most people just want to live their lives. It has been a full year of lockdown in the US, and more than a year in other countries. While the initial focus on not dying was good, too many people have forgotten that you actually need to LIVE, not just have some awful existence in which you are barricaded at home until the end of all time. People can do nothing but stay at home if that is what they choose, they can wear a dozen face masks at once if that is what they choose, but the lives of others should not end where their c*r*n*phobia starts!
 

MsZem

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15,460
So Sweden's numbers are rising, ice rinks are inherently riskier, the coaching/officials group is generally in the higher-risk groups, getting the 'rona can shorten or end an athletic career...
FWIW, the original concerns about some of the long-term effects for athletes appear to have been overstated.
The claim about ice rinks being inherently riskier than other indoor spaces requires stronger support than a study that has not been peer-reviewed.
 

Brenda_Bottems

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This hearty debate is certainly long overdue,as this particular topic has certainly not been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

I strongly suggest some members here consider finding a non-pndemic related hobby. I am curious as to what the level of interest is for a symposium on the history of compulsory figures?

-BB
 
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mjb52

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4,792
This hearty debate is certainly long overdue,as this particular topic has certainly not been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

I strongly suggest some members here consider finding a non-pndemic related hobby. I am curious as to what the level of interest is for a symposium on the history of compulsory figures?

-BB

Perhaps you could do a zoom lecture for us BB? Drinks optional.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
Staff member
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58,130
Uh, Rostelecom, much? You know, that event that turned into a superspreader, where they had a banquet despite the ISU saying their sanctioned events were not allowed to, and the ISU did jack squat about it?
Am guessing the Russian federation could reasonably argue that this season’s Rostelecom wasn’t really an ISU event so they could follow their own protocol.
 

reut

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1,364
Am guessing the Russian federation could reasonably argue that this season’s Rostelecom wasn’t really an ISU event so they could follow their own protocol.

Guidelines for ISU events during ********* were indeed not mandatory for individual Grand Prix events, there were "strongly recommended":
https://www.isu.org/inside-isu (sorry, direct link won't work, it has all the "forbidden" words)

I don't think Russian team will intentionally "misbehave", especially if they are constantly reminded by staff that masks should go over the nose. I think that all participants will be careful and will try to do their best, it's in everyone's best interest. But will ISU "punish" or do anything about people who won't follow the rules to a tee? I doubt that.

I could have missed that, but was it mentioned anywhere what happens if, say, the whole last warm up group has to quarantine after, say, SP? Or they just keep their fingers crossed and don't try to find solutions to such scenarios?
 

Carolla5501

Well-Known Member
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6,270
Zoom and other virtual meeting technologies have been around for several years. Conference phone calls have been around for decades. And the ISU AFAIK has never shown any previous inclination to do much of its business virtually, like Council meetings and Congress sessions. It seems to be the opposite, that the members/delegates enjoy the opportunity to go to a meeting and stay in a nice hotel and be fed very well.

I understand that a lot more networking and connections and relationship-building happens at an in-person meeting. But sorry, I'm not completely buying the argument that the ISU having virtual meetings right now has anything to do with their consideration for the safety of athletes at worlds. The ISU could have had online meetings long before the p*nd*m*c.
And so could have almost every business. My company is a prime example, we could have done meeting virtual meetings and virtual stuff for years. We chose not to. We have already said we are never going back to the old reality - we now know how much better the new reality works and how much money it saves us. So just because the ISU discovered the same thing we did doesn’t mean that they have nefarious motives. Especially since I don’t think they called you and said we are too scared to have a meeting in person so we’re going to do it on the Internet. It could be that they said our revenue is basically negligible this year and we can’t afford for you people to show up. I’m actually seeing a lot of that.

There’s also the fact that even if I wanted to go to the ISU meeting and I lived in some countries it would be next to impossible. Because the government has created too many restrictions. Say you are an ISU member who lived in Canada. You go to this meeting where ever it is. When you get off the plane in Canada, you get to go to a interment hotel where are you are fed rice and beans and you are charged $2000 for the privilege. Yeah that would make me want to go to an in person meeting. LOL I’m actually surprised that some skaters have not withdrawn event, not because they’re afraid of actually being at the event, but because of the roadblocks their country may be putting up for them to come back home.
 

Dave of the North

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5,604
I spend more time looking at Sweden's numbers than our own. :lol:

You can follow the daily numbers on the Sweden dashboard:

Sweden dashboard

You can move the sliders back and forth to see more detail.

At the risk of being accused of being an armchair expert :COP:, I've been tracking these numbers in a spreadsheet.

The 7 day moving average (cases) was at its recent lowest on Feb 8 (2762) and has been increasing since then. On March 1st it was 3969. It has ticked down the last couple of days as the week over week daily total decreased on Feb 27, Mar 2 and Mar 3. Feb 27 was the first week over week decrease since Feb 8.

The 28 day moving average was at its recent lowest on Feb 17 (3002) and as of Mar 3 it was 3463.

Their next update is Tuesday, so we'll see if the week over week cases continue to decrease.
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
Messages
23,855
Source? According to this Sweden continues to leave the other nordic countries in the dust in current cases and deaths. Likely why some of the athletes are sharing their concerns knowing as a country its not exactly putting safety first? I say this as someone who is looking forward to Worlds and still hopes it happens but I also appreciate concerns raised by Jackie. This is not like US Nationals that did an excellent job with strict protocols etc this is Sweden. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102257/cumulative-********-cases-in-the-nordics/

US nationals took place in a country that has done a terrible job with YKW and has one of the highest death rates in the world. It also took place in one of the least responsible states in that country. Comparing US Nationals the EVENT to Sweden the COUNTRY makes no sense. IS Nationals went well because the event was committed to it, not because our country has properly handled YKW. If US Nationals is the example, then it is the organizing committee and the federation, not the country at large, that will determine if the event is safe.
 

Erin

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,382
This hearty debate is certainly long overdue,as this particular topic has certainly not been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

I strongly suggest some members here consider finding a non-pndemic related hobby. I am curious as to what the level of interest is for a symposium on the history of compulsory figures?

-BB

I have been sadly informed that Brenda Bottems may not be real, but I would really attend this symposium if someone else would put it on?
 

greenapple

Well-Known Member
Messages
920
The ISU held a 38-day series of speed skating competitions in various venues with zero cases, so it seems likely that it can hold a one-week competition with far less people in one venue without any problems.

The five-week Speed Skating hub came to an end on February 14, 2021 in Heerenveen, the Netherlands. Over 32 hours of competition were broadcasted across four unique and exciting events including the ISU European Speed Skating Championships, two World Cups and the ISU World Speed Skating Championships. During the course of the 38-day Competition Bubble, over 2000 PCR tests were done and the most impressive number was 0, the number of positive ***** infections identified in the Competition Bubble.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Messages
40,646
Speaking of the ISU and Speed Skating, their YouTube channel was PACKED with videos during these events. Do they do that for figure skating? I hope so.
 

mjb52

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4,792
From my perspective, something I think people should think about is that these athletes, who have missed out on competition all season long, who have signed up for Worlds in high numbers (this is actually the most pairs teams in recent years isn't it?) deserve the chance to prepare for Worlds with joy and excitement, not the mild nagging worry of having a fan campaign trying to shut Worlds down, however unlikely that may be. They have missed out on so much this year. This Worlds will be unusual, with a bubble and no audience. Don't add stress to the experience. I kept hoping the numbers would go down enough that they could get to have an audience, but that does seem unlikely. So to me, what I want to do as a fan is to contribute in any way I can to skaters feeling like they have as much positivity and enthusiasm about what they will be doing as possible even though there may not be fans physically cheering for them.
 
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Frau Muller

Proud Puerto Rican-Russkaya!
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13,222
From my perspective, something I think people should think about is that these athletes, who have missed out on competition all season long, who have signed up for Worlds in high numbers (this is actually the most pairs teams in recent years isn't it?) deserve the chance to prepare for Worlds with joy and excitement, not the mild nagging worry of having a fan campaign trying to shut Worlds down, however unlikely that may be. They have missed out on so much this year. This Worlds will be unusual, with a bubble and no audience. Don't add stress to the experience. I kept hoping the numbers would go down enough that they could get to have an audience, but that does seem unlikely. So to me, what I want to do as a fan is to contribute in any way I can to skaters feeling like they have as much positivity and enthusiasm about what they will be doing as possible even though there may not be fans physical cheering for them.
EXACTLY! As I like to say, “Don’t worry - be happy!”

And for those who continue to harp about Russia: Well, well...I wonder who might benefit most from eliminating Kolyada from the Men’s event? A certain “Sinnerman” perhaps? (Love them both but...it’ll be a fight between those two for bronze, I bet.)
 

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