Decisions of the ISU Council: Stockholm Worlds (March 22-28) still on; Synchro Worlds cancelled; 2021 Grand Prix schedule/Beijing test event announced

MacMadame

Staying at home
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Now if they said all the athletes must attend live, but all the judges will be viewing remotely-that might be an argument to support your statement.
THIS ^^^^

It has been speculated, with good cause, that from now on many of these meetings will be held virtually even after the ********* is over. It turns out you can save a ton of resources doing this. And for other types of meetings, you get tremendous input from the stakeholders that we weren't getting before because the barrier to entry to attend was so great.

This, so much this, I hope everyone that is complaining doesn’t watch a minute of World’s. I feel there is a lot of projecting going on, I haven’t heard that one athlete doesn’t want World’s to happen.
I'm sure there is ONE. There is always ONE. :lol: But most of them want Worlds for many reasons.

When this all first started, I envisioned a lot of events with sparse entries because half the athletes would stay home rather than risk getting C0vid to go to a comp that will be held again next year. Or they'd stay home because they felt unprepared due to lack of ice time. We haven't seen that. Athletes mostly want to compete in spite of the limitations and the risks.

What I see happening with Worlds is that a lot of people don't feel safe and they are projecting those feelings onto this event. Maybe there is even some of "if I can't go to the movies, no one else should be able to do _____". But mostly I think it's that people don't feel safe. But just because you don't feel safe, doesn't mean that events can't be put on safely. They can if the proper precautions are taken. We have seen that.

And they can in parts of the world that have handled this pand3mic better than the majority of us. After all, there are parts of the world where they can have concerts and sporting events with live audiences. That's not the US and it's not Sweden, but if Worlds were in Vietnam or New Zealand*, I bet you people would still be screaming about it even though C19 has been practically eliminated in these and other places.


*Yes, I know New Zealand has closed its borders and Vietnam doesn't have a big enough skating community to do Worlds. This is a hypothetical example.
 

barbk

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Swedish health officials said Stockholm has succumbed to a resurgence of the *********, after infections soared 100% over the past three weeks.

“We have a third wave of transmissions -- it’s here now,” Johan Bratt, the acting health and medical care director for the Stockholm region, said at a press briefing on Wednesday.

The surge in new cases follows a warning from the government of Prime Minister Stefan Lofven that Sweden might need to enforce its first lockdown since the ********* erupted roughly a year ago. Such a step would mark a dramatic reversal of the country’s earlier skepticism toward such far-reaching restrictions.


Athletes would likely want to compete anyway.
 

barbk

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*Yes, I know New Zealand has closed its borders and Vietnam doesn't have a big enough skating community to do Worlds. This is a hypothetical example.
But how big a skating community is needed if there are no spectators? You could basically hold Worlds anyplace there was a competition and practice rink and a few hundred hotel rooms.
 

skategal

Bunny mama
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M

Swedish health officials said Stockholm has succumbed to a resurgence of the *********, after infections soared 100% over the past three weeks.

“We have a third wave of transmissions -- it’s here now,” Johan Bratt, the acting health and medical care director for the Stockholm region, said at a press briefing on Wednesday.

The surge in new cases follows a warning from the government of Prime Minister Stefan Lofven that Sweden might need to enforce its first lockdown since the ********* erupted roughly a year ago. Such a step would mark a dramatic reversal of the country’s earlier skepticism toward such far-reaching restrictions.


Athletes would likely want to compete anyway.

This makes me have déjà vue from last year’s planned Worlds in Montreal. :(

If only Worlds were a couple of weeks earlier (last year and this year) it would happen.

Imagine how the athletes must feel.

My heart goes out to them.
 

overedge

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Zoom and other virtual meeting technologies have been around for several years. Conference phone calls have been around for decades. And the ISU AFAIK has never shown any previous inclination to do much of its business virtually, like Council meetings and Congress sessions. It seems to be the opposite, that the members/delegates enjoy the opportunity to go to a meeting and stay in a nice hotel and be fed very well.

I understand that a lot more networking and connections and relationship-building happens at an in-person meeting. But sorry, I'm not completely buying the argument that the ISU having virtual meetings right now has anything to do with their consideration for the safety of athletes at worlds. The ISU could have had online meetings long before the p*nd*m*c.
 

tony

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Zoom and other virtual meeting technologies have been around for several years. Conference phone calls have been around for decades. And the ISU AFAIK has never shown any previous inclination to do much of its business virtually, like Council meetings and Congress sessions. It seems to be the opposite, that the members/delegates enjoy the opportunity to go to a meeting and stay in a nice hotel and be fed very well.

I understand that a lot more networking and connections and relationship-building happens at an in-person meeting. But sorry, I'm not completely buying the argument that the ISU having virtual meetings right now has anything to do with their consideration for the safety of athletes at worlds. The ISU could have had online meetings long before the p*nd*m*c.
I don’t really know what side you’re trying to argue, but most people didn’t think of holding meetings online and/or had extra money to spare and/or people wanted to travel anyways. It’s not as if most people used online meetings versus face-to-face meetings regardless of what your own personal sample size is pre-CV. Now, through possible forced meetings of this nature in the beginning, they learned they can get just as much accomplished. No different than remote learning in most instances.
 

Karen-W

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Zoom and other virtual meeting technologies have been around for several years. Conference phone calls have been around for decades. And the ISU AFAIK has never shown any previous inclination to do much of its business virtually, like Council meetings and Congress sessions. It seems to be the opposite, that the members/delegates enjoy the opportunity to go to a meeting and stay in a nice hotel and be fed very well.

I understand that a lot more networking and connections and relationship-building happens at an in-person meeting. But sorry, I'm not completely buying the argument that the ISU having virtual meetings right now has anything to do with their consideration for the safety of athletes at worlds. The ISU could have had online meetings long before the p*nd*m*c.
You know, I'm of two minds about this because I agree, these technologies have been available for several years, much of the last decade really, but a lot of organizations have been slow to embrace it.

There is, as you point out, a lot to be said for in-person events where networking and politicking over proposed legislation, etc occurs, and that is a reason why many of these larger sort of conventions are not going to simply move to a virtual format permanently.

However most of these traditional type of organizations have come to recognize, a year into this ********* that life does go on and so too does the business of their organization (whether it be professional associations, sports federations, fraternal organizations, etc) and there had been, I think, a huge shift in the mindset of these groups who were previously quite unwilling to embrace the use of virtual meeting spaces for anything let alone their major annual/biennial convention/congress/assembly. I've been involved with several fraternal organizations most of my life and it has seemed silly to me, for years, that these groups insisted on having in-person meetings for a lot of their subcommittees and planning meetings, but that was, 100%, the way the groups functioned because 1) not everyone had access to the necessary tech, 2) no need to change what is working, even if new tech would reduce travel time and costs. The ********* has changed all this. Not completely, because these old horses are hard to move forward with new tricks, but more than ever before. I certainly would class the ISU in the same category as these fraternal orgs and other professional associations in the sense that, going forward, there is going to be a stronger consideration to the question of "does this have to be done in person?" that doesn't really relate to athletes safety but just because now they know this is all possible and feasible.
 

mpal2

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13,198
There is also the fact that some places didn't necessarily invest in the IT technologies they should have for all of this to take place securely too. Organizations have been forced to upgrade to things that they might have put off purchasing for awhile. It really has sped up the whole process we have been moving towards for awhile.

ETA: There is also the training isssue in getting people to actually use the technology too.
 

once_upon

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18,335
Just because technology existed before, doesn't mean that it wasn't used. My son's very tech savvy company used zoom for somethings pre March 2020, but not all. I imagine post C0vid they will continue to use it mostly and travel less 'opposite of pre March 2020.

Airlines and Hotels and Restaurants also believe the Zoom culture will continue for 5-10 years
 

misskarne

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Here are some interesting articles from Yale about why indoor ice rinks are inherently a higher risk:



So Sweden's numbers are rising, ice rinks are inherently riskier, the coaching/officials group is generally in the higher-risk groups, getting the 'rona can shorten or end an athletic career, we've got proof over and over that one of the largest contingents can't be trusted to follow protocols, and...

...people are still calling those who want it to be cancelled fearful whingers.
 

tony

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Here are some interesting articles from Yale about why indoor ice rinks are inherently a higher risk:



So Sweden's numbers are rising, ice rinks are inherently riskier, the coaching/officials group is generally in the higher-risk groups, getting the 'rona can shorten or end an athletic career, we've got proof over and over that one of the largest contingents can't be trusted to follow protocols, and...

...people are still calling those who want it to be cancelled fearful whingers.
I swear, most of the complaining comes from this bolded part but just blanketed inside a bunch of other stuff. Russia does not have the same protocols as Australia. Where have they proven that they can't be trusted to do so, and which protocols? Like I said, Tutberidze got on a flight to Miami and I am 100% sure she didn't argue with the people on the plane about which rules she was going to follow. She simply abided by the rules of the situation, and I'm certain that with this being Worlds, and a pre-Olympic one at that, everyone will be on their best behavior. So don't speak as if it's proof of anything. If you're in Florida or soon to be Texas and you're out at a bar or generally disregarding mask rules, guess what? In most situations, you aren't breaking rules.

Second - the. skaters. are. going. to. the. rink. every. day. as. it. is. They aren't up and skating after a year of sitting at home doing nothing. So what exactly is the point you're trying to make about indoor rinks being such a hotbed of risk when the US has run two competitions without one instance and most skaters have been on the ice 5x a week for the last 8 or 9 months?
 

mjb52

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That sounds like a very poor-quality study. It's just someone's theory; it's not backed up in the article with data or evidence. People forget that if there was an issue at Rostelecom, although it is not completely as clear-cut as some people here think given conflicting info, it was most likely the banquet. That was a mistake, probably because cases had been low in the fall and they may not have yet realized they were rising again, that we can assume will not be repeated. There have been tons of competitions and no other reports of issues.

And again, no one has to go unless they want to. But some people don't even want the people who want to go to be able to go. That is the problem. If someone doesn't want to go, don't go!
 

skategal

Bunny mama
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Here are some interesting articles from Yale about why indoor ice rinks are inherently a higher risk:



So Sweden's numbers are rising, ice rinks are inherently riskier, the coaching/officials group is generally in the higher-risk groups, getting the 'rona can shorten or end an athletic career, we've got proof over and over that one of the largest contingents can't be trusted to follow protocols, and...

...people are still calling those who want it to be cancelled fearful whingers.
In the brief little bit I read, they were using a 7% positive rate and assuming from that rate that there will be 4 CV positive people on the ice at the same time.

They also say having the plexiglass around the ice is a bad idea as it keeps air from circulating and you need the circulating air to knock down the CV.

Neither of these things will be in play at Worlds.

The testing should keep positive people from competing and there is never plexiglass so air circulation should be fine.

So not really a comparable situation. :confused:
 

overedge

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And again, no one has to go unless they want to. But some people don't even want the people who want to go to be able to go. That is the problem. If someone doesn't want to go, don't go!

Skaters could be under pressure by their federations to go and earn spots at the Olympics or next year's worlds. Skaters could be under pressure by their coaches or their clubs to go. Skaters might feel that if they don't go this year, even if they don't feel it's safe, their federation might overlook them for international assignments, training camps, etc., in the future. Skaters might feel that this is going to be their only chance to go to Worlds, and that if they don't go now, even if they think it's risky, they'll have wasted years and years of training and $$$$ to get to this point in their careers.

It's maybe not quite as simple as "don't go if you don't want to".
 

overedge

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There is also the fact that some places didn't necessarily invest in the IT technologies they should have for all of this to take place securely too. Organizations have been forced to upgrade to things that they might have put off purchasing for awhile. It really has sped up the whole process we have been moving towards for awhile.

ETA: There is also the training isssue in getting people to actually use the technology too.
Agreed, although doing a conference call by phone is not that difficult, and has been an option for a long time before now.
 

tony

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Skaters could be under pressure by their federations to go and earn spots at the Olympics or next year's worlds. Skaters could be under pressure by their coaches or their clubs to go. Skaters might feel that if they don't go this year, even if they don't feel it's safe, their federation might overlook them for international assignments, training camps, etc., in the future. Skaters might feel that this is going to be their only chance to go to Worlds, and that if they don't go now, even if they think it's risky, they'll have wasted years and years of training and $$$$ to get to this point in their careers.

It's maybe not quite as simple as "don't go if you don't want to".
Skaters would've been sitting out the entire year, not going to the rink (where it's supposed such a risk to even go), locking themselves at home if they were that worried about extra risks. They wouldn't have traveled to any low-level competitions earlier in the year that didn't even count for qualification to Worlds. They wouldn't have gone home for the holidays. They wouldn't have gone to gyms or training facilities if they were open. Should I keep going?

It's really not as complicated as you and some others wish to keep dreaming up, and I'm sure we will still endlessly hear about some of them being pressured or forced. They did NOT have to compete at Nationals, they didn't have to work hard to get TES minimums, they didn't have to get new programs if they chose to. Are you going to enjoy Worlds or just complain about how no one wants to be there in your own mind? The idea that skaters have trained an entire season for hopes of a Worlds or big events and now are just dreading having to go is quite ridiculous. The mens World team at US Nationals was basically clear before the event started. All the other men showed up to compete-- even the ones lacking the top elements. All the other disciplines- essentially the same thing.

There are what, 42 or 43? ladies entered. Nearly 20 of them, almost half of the field, won't even make it out of the short. Some that do make it out of the short might not even get an Olympic spot. Many tried to qualify for Worlds up to the last minute even if they just barely scraped by and really don't have a chance at an Olympic spot. They want to be there.
 
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clairecloutier

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I typically don't mind Jackie Wong because he's just doing PBP of the events, but first with the Shcherbakova questions during Russian Nats and now Tweeting insinuating that skaters may be forced to go to Worlds, I just don't get why people like him, with high visibility, are trying to create further questions and have the people already protesting on Twitter start saying 'well skaters don't even want to go!'.

I wasn't quite sure what Jackie's message was with that tweet. Was he trying to say he doesn't agree with Worlds going forward? In any case, he retweeted his message. It's drawn the predicted responses.
 

tony

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I wasn't quite sure what Jackie's message was with that tweet. Was he trying to say he doesn't agree with Worlds going forward? In any case, he retweeted his message. It's drawn the predicted responses.
He absolutely worded it to make it sound as if skaters were being forced to go, and I'd say that means he probably doesn't want it to happen. Maybe he didn't get a credential ;) But who exactly is being forced? Many of the people in this field tried until the last minute to get a Worlds spot to begin with, Canadians submitted review videos to SC to get into Worlds, many of them have competed elsewhere this season any chance they got. There are a lot of athletes who qualified that have 0 chance at an Olympic spot; in fact, almost half of the dance field is going to miss out on qualifying but entries list is huge.

I just don't like subtle stirring the pot, probably with zero athletes having said they don't want to go, to appease the Twitter fandom that is doing their best to shut it all down because they simply can't go on with their own lives.

And as I suspected, reading the comments to his post, it's a majority of people bitching about the Russians and how they won't care. People need to stop hiding behind that as their entire basis and acting like skaters don't want to go.

And ETA, I mentioned pages ago but if people are so worried about improper mask wearing, then the ISU should have been on it weeks ago to get branded masks for everyone, coaches, athletes, everyone in the rink that don't slip down and won't cause any drama.
 

olympic

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BTW, Are all entries for Worlds final at this point? IOW, has the deadline for entries passed?
 

misskarne

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Where have they proven that they can't be trusted to do so, and which protocols?
Uh, Rostelecom, much? You know, that event that turned into a superspreader, where they had a banquet despite the ISU saying their sanctioned events were not allowed to, and the ISU did jack squat about it?

Not to mention the skaters and coaches constantly pulling off/down their masks at every event the RuFed has hosted this season, allowing skaters with fevers or who were clearly ill to skate...

Skate America and US Nats happened because of incredibly strict protocols planned well in advance. The ISU has only JUST added a recommendation that skaters wear masks in the kiss and cry. Seeing the difference yet?
 

tony

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Uh, Rostelecom, much? You know, that event that turned into a superspreader, where they had a banquet despite the ISU saying their sanctioned events were not allowed to, and the ISU did jack squat about it?

Not to mention the skaters and coaches constantly pulling off/down their masks at every event the RuFed has hosted this season, allowing skaters with fevers or who were clearly ill to skate...

Skate America and US Nats happened because of incredibly strict protocols planned well in advance. The ISU has only JUST added a recommendation that skaters wear masks in the kiss and cry. Seeing the difference yet?
So all of your excuses stem from the Russians and you not trusting that the most elite team sent to Worlds for Olympic spots can follow the rules that are given by the ISU. It's that simple.

But then why are you and others throwing in other endless excuses when it really comes down to this and only this? Skaters are in rinks every day and have been. Your article, which I figure you got from the comments of Jackie's post, doesn't even say much of anything besides assumptions. If you were worried about the rink itself, then why has it been okay for 9+ months in most places in the world for skaters to be in the rinks? Should no one have been skating at all? Should everyone have been barricaded at home, only to lose interest in trying to come back to the sport?

I'm going to give the example again: Tutberidze went on vacation, so did the rest of her team. Do you think she was causing a huge drama in the airport, the plane, or in buildings in Miami that said a mask was required?

If people would just say that the Russians are their concern, I would be much less inclined to reply to all the other stupid stuff that is thrown in, especially now how skaters don't want to go or previously how P/C were the only voices of reason. People are going to continue to desperately push those ideas to the bitter end.

ETA- not only to you, but some of the complainers in this thread and on Jackie's post 100% would be totally fine with Worlds going ahead if the Russians weren't allowed to go. I'm absolutely certain of it. But I am still very tired of reading about how skaters must be feeling forced to go.
 

misskarne

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ETA- not only to you, but some of the complainers in this thread and on Jackie's post 100% would be totally fine with Worlds going ahead if the Russians weren't allowed to go. I'm absolutely certain of it. But I am still very tired of reading about how skaters must be feeling forced to go.
I don't think Worlds should go ahead at all. But if they are stupid enough to forge ahead with it, then the Russians shouldn't be allowed to come. They don't get to put other countries' skaters, coaches and officials at risk because they've decided the rules don't apply to them. I think it's laughable that you think the Worlds team is magically exempt from all the risk-taking, rule-breaking behaviour we've seen this season when they're a big part of it! How many times have we seen Mishin shoving his mask down under his chin? Queen Tuk, much as I love her, was one of the skaters happily hugging and kissing other skaters at the illicit banquet.

The main reason people are concerned about the Russians is because we know the ISU won't have the spine to do anything about it if they do come and start breaking rules. They didn't have the spine to do anything about Rostelecom, after all. I'd be less worried if the ISU came out with a hardline stance after Rostelecom and removed the accreditation from the event and said look, there will be consequences if you don't adhere. But they didn't. Does anyone really think that if one of the big-name Russian coaches refused to wear their mask properly at Worlds they'd be thrown out? Or what if it's one of the skaters? Do you really think, for example, that if Kolyada refused to wear his mask he would be disqualified from the event?

Your example about Tutberidze going to Florida just made me laugh because let's be honest, she wouldn't need to kick up a fuss about wearing a mask in Florida.
 

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