CAS rules Valieva can compete - reactions/fallout, plus some details from the hearing

[Xela M]

Not worse than Daniil's programs.

 

[DreamSkates]

I’m assuming they might sacrifice Valieva’s Russian title to prove they have given her a punishment and to appease the other Russian skaters.

If you watched the video linked by Muffinplus above, Russian skaters need no appeasement. Doping is fine if you don't get caught and if you do, not a big deal. Russian culture. Not what we Westerners think at all. We need punishment and appeasement. Here is the link, and it's helpful to look at this situation from a Russian point of view, whether or not you or I would agree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX_cxwu_GFA

 

[SpiffySpiders]

If underaged athletes are permitted to challenge at senior competitions then they need to comply with senior rules in every way. No exceptions. If they aren't mature enough to make adult decisions for themselves (and the average 15-year-old is not) and mature enough to face adult consequences then they are not ready yet. Anything less destroys sporting integrity.

Allowing "protected person" status to be potentially used as a shield for administering medications that may assist in overtraining young athletes goes against the entire purpose of giving junior aged competitors such special protections. Nothing about the CAS decision was healthy for any of the teens involved, not Valieva or those competing with her.

Most Olympic sports have a few noticeably young athletes in the mix but only a handful are dominated by underage medal favourites. I can't help looking a little sideways at those sports and it plays a role in why women's is my least favourite discipline in figure skating.

 

[Tahuu]

Russian vs US take on Valieva scandal:

https://youtu.be/SX_cxwu_GFA

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads. You need talent and hard work to be a skater like Valieva.

 

[MacMadame]

Not surprised since competitive cheer is cut throat. Girls have been murdered for cheer spots.

ETA: I think the one murder I was thinking of was NOT because she got a spot, she just happened to be a cheerleader in Florida. I do recall one Mom in Texas hired someone to kill a cheerleader because her daughter didn’t get the spot. Totally insane.

I think you are thinking about Wanda Holloway who hired a hitman to kill a rival cheerleader's mom because she figured that would upset the cheerleader enough that she'd blow her audition and not get on the team so her daughter would have gotten on instead.

It was a dumb plan and she got caught. Also, her daughter says she didn't even want to be a cheerleader.

 

[Nadya]

If you watched the video linked by Muffinplus above, Russian skaters need no appeasement. Doping is fine if you don't get caught and if you do, not a big deal. Russian culture. Not what we Westerners think at all. We need punishment and appeasement. Here is the link, and it's helpful to look at this situation from a Russian point of view, whether or not you or I would agree. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX_cxwu_GFA

I'm about twenty years older than this lovechunk and even in my time they NEVER told us at school that Russia is the greatest country in the world and everyone's jealous of us. That's just straight up BS made for the Western viewer brownie points. I mean why not tell them we have pet bears and get balalaikas for our birthdays while you're at it. Let the bullshit flow!

 

[aml78]

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads. You need talent and hard work to be a skater like Valieva.

Agreed. Which is why it’s ridiculous they give her these meds. She’s talented and could be successful without risking her health.

 

[Yyzskater]

I would think at least she will lose her Russian National title considering she tested positive from the sample taken during Russian Nationals, right?

Since its a domestic event and not an ISU sanctioned event, do they even need to comply with any ruling?

 

[MacMadame]

Since its a domestic event and not an ISU sanctioned event, do they even need to comply with any ruling?

I believe they do. RSFS has to agree to follow the WADA code to be a NGB under the ISU which has agreed to these things to be an Olympic sport. That's why her sample was taken at Nationals and sent to a WADA-certified lab.

 

[jenny12]

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads. You need talent and hard work to be a skater like Valieva.

This is irrelevant. No one is saying that Valieva is untalented. This issue is that doping provides an extra edge on top of the talent that creates an uneven playing field.

 

[Rogue]

JMHO, but they should demand hair samples from all of Iteri’s competitive skaters to see if there is a pattern of prohibited substances

 

[Xela M]

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads. You need talent and hard work to be a skater like Valieva.

Doping doesn't help you land jumps - it helps you train much longer and harder than a normal human body would allow. That's the advantage. Of course I could take all the doping in the world and I would never win the Tour de France or even land a triple jump. No one is saying that doping replaces an athlete's incredible talent and hard work, but it allows quicker recovery of the body that enables overtraining that other clean athletes are unable to do because of the limitations of ordinary human bodies

 

[jamesy]

JMHO, but they should demand hair samples from all of Iteri’s competitive skaters to see if there is a pattern of prohibited substances

“Ma’am, this is a chicken-flavored Ramen noodle.”

 

[VGThuy]

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads. You need talent and hard work to be a skater like Valieva.

I guess she’s the only skater in the world who has talent and hard work. Even the Japanese are so lazy and talentless. “You Americans”…

 

[On My Own]

I'm about twenty years older than this lovechunk and even in my time they NEVER told us at school that Russia is the greatest country in the world and everyone's jealous of us. That's just straight up BS made for the Western viewer brownie points. I mean why not tell them we have pet bears and get balalaikas for our birthdays while you're at it. Let the bullshit flow!

What is your take on the entire video? Is the rest bullshit as well, or is there something you agree with it?

I will say that I don't find reason to believe that Russians as a whole exhibit the tendencies she's pointing out in her video. Some do, but some don't make the whole of it. There were plenty of Russians online who seem to disagree with and dislike Eteri's methods, and don't like doping. Maybe a case can be made that these Russians are "westernized", and she also says younger Russians are more aware of mental health (certainly what I've read as well).

The propaganda video though, that does seem a product of nationalism, and I cannot deny that Eteri's stock doesn't seem to have reduced one bit. Valieva does seem to be becoming a hero (she seemed to be welcomed back warmly from what I saw on Twitter), but I'm not sure if it's due to propaganda, or because a lot of Russians have sympathy for her and blame her coaches as well.

 

[MarieM]

I smell bullshit.
If she's not submitted to the same rules as "adults", let her compete with kids only. That's about all there is to say.

And no punition means people will feel pressure to dope underage kids. Since they don't get punishments.

TAS has created chaos.

 

[Nadya]

Doping doesn't help you land jumps - it helps you train much longer and harder than a normal human body would allow. That's the advantage. Of course I could take all the doping in the world and I would never win the Tour de France or even land a triple jump. No one is saying that doping replaces an athlete's incredible talent and hard work, but it allows quicker recovery of the body that enables overtraining that other clean athletes are unable to do because of the limitations of ordinary human bodies

Wouldn't longer training time be offset by a higher likelihood of injury though? I mean pounding is pounding.

 

[PRlady]

Wouldn't longer training time be offset by a higher likelihood of injury though? I mean pounding is pounding.

Yes. And every Eteri skater has been injured, including all 3As this year.

 

[Nadya]

What is your take on the entire video? Is the rest bullshit as well, or is there something you agree with it?

I will say that I don't find reason to believe that Russians as a whole exhibit the tendencies she's pointing out in her video. Some do, but some don't make the whole of it. There were plenty of Russians online who seem to disagree with and dislike Eteri's methods, and don't like doping. Maybe a case can be made that these Russians are "westernized", and she also says younger Russians are more aware of mental health (certainly what I've read as well).

The propaganda video though, that does seem a product of nationalism, and I cannot deny that Eteri's stock doesn't seem to have reduced one bit. Valieva does seem to be becoming a hero (she seemed to be welcomed back warmly from what I saw on Twitter), but I'm not sure if it's due to propaganda, or because a lot of Russians have sympathy for her and blame her coaches as well.

I didn't have it in me to watch the entire video but the bits I saw about the training philosophy makes sense. [In general], Russians do not tend to shy away from brutal truths. I think - and this is just my theory - the Western audiences are much-bonded to the legend of a well-rounded child athlete, who goes to school, plays the piano, hangs out with friends, skates for a few hours, grabs a gold medal and says, I just want to skate to have fun. You and I both know that doesn't exist in reality. In the Russian discourse, I find, people are more conscious of the fact that big sport is not fun, it's hard hard hard work that comes with many sacrifices and privations. If you're fat, you will be told you're fat. No one gives participation trophies. If you don't like this, don't go into big sport. Russian teachers [IN GENERAL] do not shy away from physical correction, not to hurt but to show physically how your body part should be held/contorted to do the job. There is less bodily autonomy, yes. There is less reverence around "self esteem" - if the coach yells at you and tells you what's wrong, it's because they want you to do better.

Let me give you an example. I have a dear friend in Canada (we both grew up in Russia) who has a 14-year old son, a talented trumpet player. A couple of years ago she took him to a four-week intensive in the Gnessin school in Moscow, which is a top top top music academy for children where all elite players go. When I asked him what he thought, he said it was very different from Canadian teachers in the sense that no one tried to precede negative comments with positivity. For instance, if he used a different finger than marked, a Canadian teacher would say, "oh, dear John, I see you have used a different finger that marked in the sheet. Of course I want you to have complete freedom to decide what finger to use. Do whatever feels comfortable to you. Just please consider that maybe this notation here is for a good reason, and when the tempo picks up, you may find yourself in difficulty because the finger you're using now won't be as comfortable. Would you like to try playing as written? Just to see. " An instructor in the Gnessin looks at him and says, "John, this is a wrong finger! Start again, use the right finger." To a Russian mind, this is a correct approach.

 

[On My Own]

I didn't have it in me to watch the entire video but the bits I saw about the training philosophy makes sense. [In general], Russians do not tend to shy away from brutal truths. I think - and this is just my theory - the Western audiences are much-bonded to the legend of a well-rounded child athlete, who goes to school, plays the piano, hangs out with friends, skates for a few hours, grabs a gold medal and says, I just want to skate to have fun. You and I both know that doesn't exist in reality. In the Russian discourse, I find, people are more conscious of the fact that big sport is not fun, it's hard hard hard work that comes with many sacrifices and privations. If you're fat, you will be told you're fat. No one gives participation trophies. If you don't like this, don't go into big sport. Russian teachers [IN GENERAL] do not shy away from physical correction, not to hurt but to show physically how your body part should be held/contorted to do the job. There is less bodily autonomy, yes. There is less reverence around "self esteem" - if the coach yells at you and tells you what's wrong, it's because they want you to do better.

Let me give you an example. I have a dear friend in Canada (we both grew up in Russia) who has a 14-year old son, a talented trumpet player. A couple of years ago she took him to a four-week intensive in the Gnessin school in Moscow, which is a top top top music academy for children where all elite players go. When I asked him what he thought, he said it was very different from Canadian teachers in the sense that no one tried to precede negative comments with positivity. For instance, if he used a different finger than marked, a Canadian teacher would say, "oh, dear John, I see you have used a different finger that marked in the sheet. Of course I want you to have complete freedom to decide what finger to use. Do whatever feels comfortable to you. Just please consider that maybe this notation here is for a good reason, and when the tempo picks up, you may find yourself in difficulty because the finger you're using now won't be as comfortable. Would you like to try playing as written? Just to see. " An instructor in the Gnessin looks at him and says, "John, this is a wrong finger! Start again, use the right finger." To a Russian mind, this is a correct approach.

Right... I will say that, for me, if it were just brutal honesty like this (I'm not "western" either), I wouldn't mind it, had it not been coupled with things like the doping that has surfaced (the other things being possible eating disorders to sustain the bad technique being taught, and the bad technique itself... this indeed has read to me as "winning at all costs", setting the Russian ladies discipline in stark contrast against even Russian ID, and Pairs before this quad happened)... Maybe because I'm used to "brutal honesty" myself. Personally, I dislike the saccharine approach of the Canadian instructor you've mentioned. If it were just brutal honesty in my perception, I wouldn't be alarmed and perceiving it as possible abuse.

I absolutely agree that the western audiences seem bonded to the legend of a well rounded athlete or student. Anecdotally, I remember questioning one of my high school teachers (an English teacher who liked to be "modern" which equated to "more western" lol) why she tried to spread this myth to us. That being said, I think if we look at the families and teachers of high achievers in one field, they are well aware of the sacrifices to be made, and don't hold such a legend in their minds...

Thank you for answering

 

[PRlady]

I didn't have it in me to watch the entire video but the bits I saw about the training philosophy makes sense. [In general], Russians do not tend to shy away from brutal truths. I think - and this is just my theory - the Western audiences are much-bonded to the legend of a well-rounded child athlete, who goes to school, plays the piano, hangs out with friends, skates for a few hours, grabs a gold medal and says, I just want to skate to have fun. You and I both know that doesn't exist in reality. In the Russian discourse, I find, people are more conscious of the fact that big sport is not fun, it's hard hard hard work that comes with many sacrifices and privations. If you're fat, you will be told you're fat. No one gives participation trophies. If you don't like this, don't go into big sport. Russian teachers [IN GENERAL] do not shy away from physical correction, not to hurt but to show physically how your body part should be held/contorted to do the job. There is less bodily autonomy, yes. There is less reverence around "self esteem" - if the coach yells at you and tells you what's wrong, it's because they want you to do better.

Let me give you an example. I have a dear friend in Canada (we both grew up in Russia) who has a 14-year old son, a talented trumpet player. A couple of years ago she took him to a four-week intensive in the Gnessin school in Moscow, which is a top top top music academy for children where all elite players go. When I asked him what he thought, he said it was very different from Canadian teachers in the sense that no one tried to precede negative comments with positivity. For instance, if he used a different finger than marked, a Canadian teacher would say, "oh, dear John, I see you have used a different finger that marked in the sheet. Of course I want you to have complete freedom to decide what finger to use. Do whatever feels comfortable to you. Just please consider that maybe this notation here is for a good reason, and when the tempo picks up, you may find yourself in difficulty because the finger you're using now won't be as comfortable. Would you like to try playing as written? Just to see. " An instructor in the Gnessin looks at him and says, "John, this is a wrong finger! Start again, use the right finger." To a Russian mind, this is a correct approach.

I think you are way over-estimating the solicitousness of Western teachers. That’s as much a caricature as the one of every brutal unsmiling Russian.

Now my early education was a long time ago but my daughter went thru public schools (and a competitive theater program) in liberal affluent Montgomery County Maryland. I assure you she had teachers who were quite direct about students’ shortcomings. And who played favorites and expected a lot of subservient behavior.

 

[Nadya]

I think you are way over-estimating the solicitousness of Western teachers. That’s as much a caricature as the one of every brutal unsmiling Russian.

Now my early education was a long time ago but my daughter went thru public schools (and a competitive theater program) in liberal affluent Montgomery County Maryland. I assure you she had teachers who were quite direct about students’ shortcomings. And who played favorites and expected a lot of subservient behavior.

I'm sure that's true and you're right about the caricatures.

I'm in a comparably affluent NoVa community and my son is in 5th grade. Last year, during the disaster that was virtual school, I get a text message from his teacher, a very nice enthusiastic young woman. The message goes "dear Ms X, we are so happy to have your son in the class. He is so nice blah blah. Please let us know if there's anything else we can do to encourage him to share his ideas and thoughts more in class because we are sure it would really enrich the class experience." I look at this message for a few minutes, and then I translate it in my head, and what she is really saying is - where the hell is your son and why is he silent?

Of course junior was playing videogames instead of connecting to class, and, you know, SHARING his ideas. Russian style punishment was meted out.

 

[her grace]

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads.

There's no proof that an American skater has ever taken trimetazidine. For all we know, the Americans Liu and Kalin are the only female skaters who have recently landed quads without a drug assist.

 

[PRlady]

I'm sure that's true and you're right about the caricatures.

I'm in a comparably affluent NoVa community and my son is in 5th grade. Last year, during the disaster that was virtual school, I get a text message from his teacher, a very nice enthusiastic young woman. The message goes "dear Ms X, we are so happy to have your son in the class. He is so nice blah blah. Please let us know if there's anything else we can do to encourage him to share his ideas and thoughts more in class because we are sure it would really enrich the class experience." I look at this message for a few minutes, and then I translate it in my head, and what she is really saying is - where the hell is your son and why is he silent?

Of course junior was playing videogames instead of connecting to class, and, you know, SHARING his ideas. Russian style punishment was meted out.

Some of that, believe me, IS the affluence. Teachers in affluent communities are scared of upsetting parents whose big goal in life is to get their kids into Ivy League schools. Our counterparts complain a LOT if kids get low grades or discipline. That's one thing I'd like to change.

In my current job we hear a lot about rural schools in the South and Midwest (they are the most likely to report a violation of school prayer rules to our lawyers, and you would not BELIEVE how many of them are going on about Jesus during class.) Trust me those teachers are not terrified of parents or anyone but Hell.

 

[Nadya]

Some of that, believe me, IS the affluence. Teachers in affluent communities are scared of upsetting parents whose big goal in life is to get their kids into Ivy League schools. Our counterparts complain a LOT if kids get low grades or discipline. That's one thing I'd like to change.

In my current job we hear a lot about rural schools in the South and Midwest (they are the most likely to report a violation of school prayer rules to our lawyers, and you would not BELIEVE how many of them are going on about Jesus during class.) Trust me those teachers are not terrified of parents or anyone but Hell.

I can believe this in MoCo, where old wealth and its habits have traditionally concentrated. In my area of NoVa, growth is fueled primarily by the white-collar Asian immigrants, and when these folks are not happy about their children's grades, they come down on the children, not the teacher Behavior problems? Come here son, I have your behavior problem solution right here.

 

[giselle23]

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads. You need talent and hard work to be a skater like Valieva.

And sketchy technique.

 

[Rob]

I can believe this in MoCo, where old wealth and its habits have traditionally concentrated. In my area of NoVa, growth is fueled primarily by the white-collar Asian immigrants, and when these folks are not happy about their children's grades, they come down on the children, not the teacher Behavior problems? Come here son, I have your behavior problem solution right here.

I grew up and went to Elementary school in MoCo and if I ever devoted anything less than full effort in school, my mother always believed the teacher. She was from Scotland, maybe that was a difference - but I think things have changed over time where parents are more likely to treat criticism of their child as criticism of their parenting, thus they get defensive. Also my teacher friends say that many parents expect the teachers to do a lot to raise their children so if the teacher criticizes a child for behavioral problems it’s the teachers fault for not keeping them in line. However if the teacher disciplines the child that’s another matter, suddenly it was not their right to do so. Strange view IMO.

 

[skategal]

I’m in Canada and all my son’s teachers have been pretty direct.

Grade P-5 “He’s very quiet in class and needs to participate more. Is he quiet like this at home?” (No.)

Grade 6: “He always participates in class and wants to say the answer. I need to give other kids a chance to answer.”

 

[sk9tingfan]

There's some truth in Russian's take that you Americans can take tons of trimetazidine but still cannot land the quads. You need talent and hard work to be a skater like Valieva.

If you reference one of my responses in this thread, you will note that I did a search via the National Library of Medicine and other American Federal databases. My findings is that Trimetazidine is not an approved drug and therefore not available in the USA. So you'd have to come up with a better retort than that. BTW, I was responsible for making sure that all of my company's systems' databases were accurately updated on a monthly basis in order and those sources not only included the NLM but also RxNorm which was regulated/populated by the FDA. I also did the same for a number of commercial drug databases.

I also reviewed the efficacy of most drugs within class because I developed the clinical underpinnings with respect to clinical condition management software. Trametazidine is relatively ineffectual in the treatment and management of atherosclerotic heart disease(efficacy) compared to others in class. That is one of the reasons why it is not approved. I did not take the time to read all of the studies that are made available by NLM, but there are undoubtedly other short comings and deleterious side effects. No competent physician would prescribe this drug.

 

[sk9tingfan]

And sketchy technique

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