IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

caseyedwards

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You keep negating that this particular issue is a huge CURRENT issue in Russia. No other country has country wide, state sponsored doping.

For the record, I want any cheater to not be able to compete.

But don't let that little detail stop you from making further assumptions about me lol
Yes state sponsored! Not athlete sponsored! And it’s state meaning government not the country itself.

You test them! That’s what’s done. More than any other people and you ban government involvement in all athletics. Maybe just in Russia. Say the state can’t ever participate in Russian sports again if they want their NOC to continue.

The issue is ioc is all about human rights and athletes rights so they ban athletes because of their government abusing them? That makes no sense? Unless they want Russians in sports to form a kind of paramilitary where they kill putin.
 

Twilight1

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@caseyedwards so your solution is to remove surface dressing officials and not the athletes who dope and/or athletes that aid and abet other dopers?

@misskarne we may not know the reason "yet" but given the identifiers for being banned from these Olympics... I wonder if the conjecture above is the reason.
 
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misskarne

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@misskarne we may not know the reason "yet" but given the identifiers for being banned from these Olympics... I wonder if the conjecture above is the reason.

But then Stolbova and Klimov would know, and wouldn't be in the dark about it. But also, they'd be banned from ISU competition as well. Since that is not the case, it would seem they have done nothing to contravene any anti-doping rules.
 

caseyedwards

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@caseyedwards so your solution is to remove surface dressing officials and not the athletes who dope and/or athletes that aid and abet other dopers?

@misskarne we may not know the reason "yet" but given the identifiers for being banned from these Olympics... I wonder if the conjecture above is the reason.
Either the athletes dope or who knows what happens to them. It’s dangerous not to dope but you can’t expect the athletes Or even the people in a totalitarian state to risk their lives to fix it. But you also don’t want to blame the victim athletes. You want to say Russia has state sponsored doping but not treat the athletes as victims. You want to say Russia has state sponsored doping and the athletes should be punished like it’s a choice they are making like they are Americans. They aren’t American style dopers they are in a state sponsored doping country. You can’t exclude because their might be doping you test test test test. what has banning Russians accomplished? Nothing!

The Russian athletes are the victims! Why don’t you acknowledge that and treat them as guilty?
 

MacMadame

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I think the IOC told the ROC and the ROC refused to pass the information on for whatever reason. It certainly makes for confusion and lots of bad feeling from the IOC and that plays right into the ROC's hands. Has the ROC ever said *they* don't know why? It's just the athletes.
 

misskarne

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I think the IOC told the ROC and the ROC refused to pass the information on for whatever reason. It certainly makes for confusion and lots of bad feeling from the IOC and that plays right into the ROC's hands. Has the ROC ever said *they* don't know why? It's just the athletes.

But it can't be anything real, because then they'd be banned from ISU competition too.
 
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Deleted member 40371

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I think the IOC told the ROC and the ROC refused to pass the information on for whatever reason. It certainly makes for confusion and lots of bad feeling from the IOC and that plays right into the ROC's hands. Has the ROC ever said *they* don't know why? It's just the athletes.
IOC could say it then, why are they not saying what the reason is ?, please don’t tell me it is because of confidentiality, what could be worse than not getting invite to the Olympics because there is chance these athletes may have doped.
 

skatingguy

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But it can't be anything real, because then they'd be banned from ISU competition too.
The best explanation that I've come across at this time is that their names were included on the database that was recovered at the end of October. None of the athletes in that database have been named so far. There has been a suggestion that the information hasn't been fully processed yet and that WADA is not ready to proceed with sanctions until all the testing of the Sochi samples is complete. I don't have any reason to believe that the IOC would just randomly ban athletes, unless you want to believe the Russian propaganda that this is all some political conspiracy.
 

misskarne

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The best explanation that I've come across at this time is that their names were included on the database that was recovered at the end of October. None of the athletes in that database have been named so far. There has been a suggestion that the information hasn't been fully processed yet and that WADA is not ready to proceed with sanctions until all the testing of the Sochi samples is complete.

And you don't see a problem with the idea of athletes being banned just because their name appeared in some unprocessed, unconfirmed database that may or may not mean anything?

And again, Bukin wasn't even in Sochi. What's then the reason for his?
 

skatingguy

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And you don't see a problem with the idea of athletes being banned just because their name appeared in some unprocessed, unconfirmed database that may or may not mean anything?
Yes, but I don't what the problem is. I don't know what the database means but that doesn't mean that it is unprocessed or unconfirmed, it's just not public knowledge at this time. I am reserving judgement because I lack information.

And again, Bukin wasn't even in Sochi. What's then the reason for his?
The database apparently includes information on all athletes that were involved in the doping scheme, not just athletes that were competing in Sochi.
 

misskarne

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Yes, but I don't what the problem is. I don't know what the database means but that doesn't mean that it is unprocessed or unconfirmed, it's just not public knowledge at this time. I am reserving judgement because I lack information.

You said in your post that the IOC had not yet fully processed it.

So you're fine with athletes getting banned from an Olympics on unprocessed information?
 

skatingguy

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You said in your post that the IOC had not yet fully processed it.

So you're fine with athletes getting banned from an Olympics on unprocessed information?
Poor choice of words on my part, my apologies. What I wanted to convey is that process is still moving forward regarding the testing of samples and the collection of evidence, not that the database itself is unprocessed.
 
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Deleted member 40371

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Yes, but I don't what the problem is. I don't know what the database means but that doesn't mean that it is unprocessed or unconfirmed, it's just not public knowledge at this time. I am reserving judgement because I lack information.


The database apparently includes information on all athletes that were involved in the doping scheme, not just athletes that were competing in Sochi.
These things need to go through the courts and independent authorities need to verify the claims, having names in a db is not good enough to get banned, what happens if all these claims turn out to be false, will D?R give back the bronze medal ?, since S/K could not compete. Also, i have serious problem wit anything that has been handed by CIA and FBI, how independent are they?
 

Twilight1

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These things need to go through the courts and independent authorities need to verify the claims, having names in a db is not good enough to get banned, what happens if all these claims turn out to be false, will D?R give back the bronze medal ?, since S/K could not compete. Also, i have serious problem wit anything that has been handed by CIA and FBI, how independent are they?

Your assuming S&K wouldn't crack under the pressure... which they have done. :shuffle:
 

Twilight1

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But we do know there was state wide cheating.

We do know that 2 accomplices for the whistleblower was killed.

We do know that 2 more Russian athletes in PyeongChang tested positive for doping.

We do know that there were various reasons provided for the ban of some athletes.

So please explain how to address these issues when the conflicting messages from a couple people on this thread are ban doping athletes. . but don't blame Russian athletes for state doping because they had no choice.

Would that not indicate that something should be done within Russia? Except they are collectively saying they don't and haven't doped... :shuffle:
 
D

Deleted member 40371

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But we do know there was state wide cheating.

We do know that 2 accomplices for the whistleblower was killed.

We do know that 2 more Russian athletes in PyeongChang tested positive for doping.

We do know that there were various reasons provided for the ban of some athletes.

So please explain how to address these issues when the conflicting messages from a couple people on this thread are ban doping athletes. . but don't blame Russian athletes for state doping because they had no choice.

Would that not indicate that something should be done within Russia? Except they are collectively saying they don't and haven't doped... :shuffle:
It should go through the legal channel rather than this. The proof should stand up to the cross examination at courts.
 
D

Deleted member 40371

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So are you saying positive test results are only a story?
28 out of the 39 athletes that appealed were cleared by the CAS, the 11 athletes implicated are in the process of challenging the verdict in courts, hence no medal has been rewarded in these category. The whole Russian being banned from the games was based on the 43 athletes being banned, of which 28 has already being cleared. There was only one positive test among these athletes and he has accepted the ban.

The reason Bach was throwing temper tantrum was because of the fact that majority of the athletes have already been exonerated by the cas at the very first stage, even before going through the courts. The fact is, in the courts both Rodichenko and McLaren can be cross examined, which wasn't possible in the CAS system; were they give statements.
 

allezfred

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You keep negating that this particular issue is a huge CURRENT issue in Russia. No other country has country wide, state sponsored doping.

It is a huge current issue in Russia. I think though that it is a problem if we focus only on Russia. There are other countries "assisting" their athletes on a wide scale. There are even corporations doing similar things.

If there is an implication that Stolbova and Bukin were involved in doping then they shouldn't be able to compete at any event. But Bukin will be in Milan next week, so :confused:
 

Twilight1

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My thought is that there is more to the story and that no one is ever truly innocent. Life is too grey.

I have shared what I think could have happened with those 2 skaters but it is strictly conjecture and would support them competing at World's even under slight shade.

I support banning cheaters and cheating. I don't care what country you are from. (As stated further up if Ross Rebagliati had had his gold stripped, I would have been fine with it because it was rules and guidelines he needed to follow.) Definitely fine with Ben Johnson getting stripped of his gold etc...

The issue here is that Russia collectively and purposefully cheated.

Far different than the one offs from other countries who have compeitors who cheat and will hopefully get caught don't you think?
 

caseyedwards

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22,191
But we do know there was state wide cheating.

We do know that 2 accomplices for the whistleblower was killed.

We do know that 2 more Russian athletes in PyeongChang tested positive for doping.

We do know that there were various reasons provided for the ban of some athletes.

So please explain how to address these issues when the conflicting messages from a couple people on this thread are ban doping athletes. . but don't blame Russian athletes for state doping because they had no choice.

Would that not indicate that something should be done within Russia? Except they are collectively saying they don't and haven't doped... :shuffle:
You are wrong but it’s really irrelevant what Russia government says because they really have no power in iaaf or wada and ioc! The Russian government says there is a HUGE doping problem but that it’s not government sponsored. So then athletes are coaches are doing the doping. The international community including wada iaaf but only some in ioc says all the doping in personally ordered by the highest levels of government which includes putin. But they have no power to change the Russian government. The Russian people have no power in the Russian government. If a Russian wants power in the government but wants to remove putin to have power- killed!!!! So either the whole international sports community starts acting like they used to act with totalitarian governments and allow them and test their athletes or ban them completely!

It should be noted that Schmid report isn’t saying state sponsored they are saying institutional conspiracy to allow for athletes to be banned and not be victims of a state sponsored system. But iaaf and wada want total state sponsored doping acknowledged not institutional conspiracy.
 

Tinami Amori

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We do know that 2 more Russian athletes in PyeongChang tested positive for doping.
for the record:
- the female skier which tested positive used some kind of over the counter cold medicine (by stupidity) and it was confirmed by test lab that what it was. her mistake is not obtaining exemption, and NOT an attempt to cheat. she is penalized but is not considered a "doper".
- Krushelnitzky's case is similar in fact that he is not viewed as a "cheat". The small amount of meldonium is found, but it is clear he did not take it intentionally or for any particular benefit (there are many reasons accepted by WADA why he had no reason to take small portion of 1 pill). there is an investigation being conducted now and his penalty is not yet determined.

IOC knows these two situations were not attempts to cheat, and that's why they reinstated Russian to IOC.
 

Mad for Skating

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I didn't know where I can post this article. The IFS magazin also posted it

https://www.rt.com/sport/425395-worst-doping-cheaters-wada/

WADA reveals worst doping cheaters in 2016, Russia not even in top 5

And after that they banned Russia from the OG 2018????


and this http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Award__5379__internet.pdf

https://www.sports.ru/skiing/1062600667.html

I understand the need for clean sport, but I will never approve of what the IOC did with Stolbova and Bukin.
*in the voice of Taylor Swift*: "never, ever, ever..."
 

ChiquitaBanana

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2,034
I didn't know where I can post this article. The IFS magazin also posted it

https://www.rt.com/sport/425395-worst-doping-cheaters-wada/

WADA reveals worst doping cheaters in 2016, Russia not even in top 5

And after that they banned Russia from the OG 2018????


and this http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Award__5379__internet.pdf

https://www.sports.ru/skiing/1062600667.html


Russia was banned in athletics in 2016 at the Olympics. That might explain they rank lower! Lol!
 

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