IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

barbarafan

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Carolina is a darling, a very decent person, and never took any drugs, ever! Did anyone expected her to snitch on her OWN BOYFRIEND???!!! The anti-doping rules which demand such "snitching on a relative/family member" should be eliminated. It's not a robbery or a murder... If she was his wife, she would not have to testify against her husband..... so she is not a wife, but a longtime girlfriend, same thing...

What I read was that she was not aware he was doping and did not believe it so when they showed up to test him she told them she did not know where he was. However she did know how to reach him and did so to tell him to report in right away as there would be consequences if he did not. That is what they prosecuted her for. I think they were way too harsh.I don't believe that if she had discovered he was doping she would have still been in the relationship. She was an athlete her whole life and was devoted to sport. I am sure that would have been a red line for her.
 

Twilight1

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Newsflash: Kostner knowingly and wilfully engaged in behaviour contrary to anti-doping rules. She knowingly and wilfully tried to cover up another athlete's doping violation. Then she knowingly and wilfully lied to investigators until she realised they had her dead to rights.

So again: you're perfectly fine with someone who knowingly and wilfully flouted the anti-doping rules being at the Olympics, but the very idea that innocent Russian athletes, who were not involved in the situation and likely knew nothing about it, should go or should celebrate who they are sends you into a rage.

I suppose you were delighted that Justin Gatlin was running for the US in Rio, too.

Nice A$$umption.

Firstly, your narrative is a false equivalence because
a) Kostner was not part of a bigger state sponsored syndicate
b) she actually was BANNED FROM COMPETITION and served her sentence for 16 months!!

Justin Gatlin is an idiot and should have been banned.

Not sure where you think I would be okay with him competing lmao.
 

barbarafan

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Of course there are other countries and of course there are doctors. there is also a big difference with people with disabilities such as blindness or missing a limb. That is why we have different Olympics for them. Then there is a difference between life saving medication and a documented history of medical need and care. There is also a big difference between an athlete choosing to dope vs a country forcing their athletes. I despise cheating in sport but I despise Russia for giving their athletes no choice.

I do not despise Russia. I am sure it is filled with wonderful people. I do despise the current people running or should I say ruining the country.
 

Twilight1

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What I do know is that there is a percentage of athletes who have genuine medical conditions and a percentage of athletes who do not have medical conditions but have the drugs prescribed anyway. Thanks to drugs being allowed for some and not allowed for others, the field will never be level. There will always be athletes having things prescribed. So either allow the medications for everyone and then there are no exceptions, or ban the medications for everyone.

By the way, I didn’t see you proving through scientific studies that everyone’s conditions are genuine. So you are using big words about me contradicting validated medical studies, but didn’t really prove anything yourself, did you!

By the way, the question isn’t how big percentage of population suffers with this or that condition. That doesn’t prove anything. The question is whether it is being abused and it seems it is. So the only way how to fight against it is to close the loophole.


Actually Hanca- I have posted 2 scientific studies so please don't lie. ;)

Here are more...

"It depends on whether you actually have asthma or not. Years of studies show little evidence that beta-2 agonists give an advantage to people without asthma. And in ordinary doses, they don’t provide an advantage to people with asthma, either. Asthmatic athletes that try megadoses of beta-2 agonist inhalers might get some kind of boost, but they would likely experience side effects—including a pounding chest and dizziness—that would make it hard to compete."

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...to-do-better-at-the-winter-olympics/23366774/

And another...

"asthma develops in endurance athletes and is believed to be related to daily training sessions and frequent competitions with heavily increased ventilation.” Interestingly, the study also found that in Olympic games since 2000, asthmatic athletes won substantially more medals than athletes without asthma and quoted speculation that “…the harder an athlete trains, the better the performance, simultaneously increasing asthma risk.”

Source: J Allergy Clin Immunol 2016:138:409-10

https://www.asthmacenter.com/sports-asthma-olympics-rio-2016/
 

hanca

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Hanca- there is a difference between employment and sport and you know it.

Seriously stop being so utterly ridiculous.
Oh, you run out of arguments so you will start calling me names now? Lovely! You just proved my point.
 

Twilight1

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Actually- you are making statements without proof so you are making YOURSELF look ridiculous and my statement still stands...

So again... you stated and I quote...

"a percentage of athletes who do not have medical conditions but have the drugs prescribed anyway. "

Where is your proof?

I have now linked 4 articles for you. :D
 

Yehudi

AITA
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4,991
Of course there are other countries and of course there are doctors. there is also a big difference with people with disabilities such as blindness or missing a limb. That is why we have different Olympics for them. Then there is a difference between life saving medication and a documented history of medical need and care. There is also a big difference between an athlete choosing to dope vs a country forcing their athletes. I despise cheating in sport but I despise Russia for giving their athletes no choice.

A blind person would never be able to see so couldn’t become a surgeon. But if you have less than perfect vision, you can still become a surgeon with corrective lenses. TUE’s are meant to be like corrective lenses, allowing a person to actually function, rather than something to give them an edge

As far as skating, Oksana Baiul, neither American nor Norwegian, got a TUE for some painkillers that had steroids, after she crashed into Szewczenko, as that was the only way she could skate her free program.
 

Tinami Amori

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As far as skating, Oksana Baiul, neither American nor Norwegian, got a TUE for some painkillers that had steroids, after she crashed into Szewczenko, as that was the only way she could skate her free program.
It was a one time situation, which took place in front of 1000s of eyes. Not the same as when an athlete gets a TUE from a "local doctor" and uses the substance permanently.
 

Judy

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A blind person would never be able to see so couldn’t become a surgeon. But if you have less than perfect vision, you can still become a surgeon with corrective lenses. TUE’s are meant to be like corrective lenses, allowing a person to actually function, rather than something to give them an edge

As far as skating, Oksana Baiul, neither American nor Norwegian, got a TUE for some painkillers that had steroids, after she crashed into Szewczenko, as that was the only way she could skate her free program.

I am struggling with your argument. A blind person couldn’t become a surgeon? I have a blind cousin, she works but of course she is limited. A lot of people wear glasses. Comparing a medical disability like this is moot. Of course they can’t become a surgeon. I think it is reasonable to write off this comparison right now. How does asmtha medication affect an athletes performance? How does insulin? Any drug tester could test me and determine I am type 1 diabetic. I don’t believe in attacking posters but I find your argument offensive.
 

Perky Shae Lynn

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As far as skating, Oksana Baiul, neither American nor Norwegian, got a TUE for some painkillers that had steroids, after she crashed into Szewczenko, as that was the only way she could skate her free program.
This was a legitimate injury that happened during the Olympics - and was witnessed by the entire world. In addition, the painkiller had one benefit: allowing Bauil to skate. It wouldn't make her skate any better. It wouldn't improve her conditioning. It served only one purpose, to dull the pain. Whether one accepts the legitimacy of prescribed / approved medication used by athletes, your example is nonsense. Scenario under discussion has nothing to do with a one-time use of pain killers, like in Bauil's case. It has to do with continuous use of medication prescribed by local/personal physicians that can potentially alter the athlete's training and performance.
 

Willin

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It's not like they're going off of just the local physician's word. They're going off of medical tests as well. There are tests for asthma, and if WADA was really suspicious, they are tests that can be filmed to ensure they have the correct athlete completing the tests. (A lot of the tests are breathing into equipment to test lung capacity and volumes when breathing)

BUT, if it really is a concern that doctors are handing out fake diagnoses, maybe WADA should send in an independent doctor to do all the tests necessary for athletes with long term conditions or send someone to verify that each diagnostic test is done with the actual athlete's samples.

@Judy The argument is that in order to be a surgeon you need to have some level of vision. There are many careers blind individuals can go into (Two of my blind friends did computer science, another works in producing for the stage), but surgeons need the ability to see their patient and see what they are cutting into. There is no workaround for that. If you are a surgeon with blurry vision, glasses/contact/laser surgery will fix that well enough that you can perform your job.
 

Yehudi

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I am struggling with your argument. A blind person couldn’t become a surgeon? I have a blind cousin, she works but of course she is limited. A lot of people wear glasses. Comparing a medical disability like this is moot. Of course they can’t become a surgeon. I think it is reasonable to write off this comparison right now. How does asmtha medication affect an athletes performance? How does insulin? Any drug tester could test me and determine I am type 1 diabetic. I don’t believe in attacking posters but I find your argument offensive.

There are ingredients in asthma meds that are on the banned substance lists and athletes need to get approval to take them.

Anyway the point is that is that without TUEs, some of these athletes would not be able to function even in their every day life. Simone Biles’ meds would certainly not help her do her skills but without them, she wouldn’t be able to function.

For the record my dad was a surgeon, wore glasses and was diabetic. He needed glasses to read and see things up close.
It has to do with continuous use of medication prescribed by local/personal physicians that can potentially alter the athlete's training and performance.

And do we have proof that these athletes are faking it? I remember Tom Dolan who was asthmatic and a gold medal winner in swimming. I don’t know if he ever used a TUE but I remember him in a competition where he won one race and then looking like he was going to drown in the next because he had an asthma attack.
 

Judy

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It's not like they're going off of just the local physician's word. They're going off of medical tests as well. There are tests for asthma, and if WADA was really suspicious, they are tests that can be filmed to ensure they have the correct athlete completing the tests. (A lot of the tests are breathing into equipment to test lung capacity and volumes when breathing)

BUT, if it really is a concern that doctors are handing out fake diagnoses, maybe WADA should send in an independent doctor to do all the tests necessary for athletes with long term conditions or send someone to verify that each diagnostic test is done with the actual athlete's samples.

@Judy The argument is that in order to be a surgeon you need to have some level of vision. There are many careers blind individuals can go into (Two of my blind friends did computer science, another works in producing for the stage), but surgeons need the ability to see their patient and see what they are cutting into. There is no workaround for that. If you are a surgeon with blurry vision, glasses/contact/laser surgery will fix that well enough that you can perform your job.

Yes I agree - just because you have a disability doesn’t mean you can’t achieve things. It’s just the comparison I don’t get.

I am not saying drug doping doesn’t exist. My former boss had a niece that was recruited for her running in the U.S. and was immediately put on steroids by a staff of doctors. Thankfully she got out.

I also don’t believe there was no reason for the Russian pairs to be banned. They know the reason. Should the Olympic committee be more transparent? Yes.
 

MacMadame

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I think saying someone is ridiculous is naming calling. But she didn't say that. She said the argument was ridiculous and you can't name-call an argument. They aren't people and don't have feelings. :)
 

hanca

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I think saying someone is ridiculous is naming calling. But she didn't say that. She said the argument was ridiculous and you can't name-call an argument. They aren't people and don't have feelings. :)
She didn’t say the argument was ridiculous. She asked me to stop being ridiculous, which implies she believes I am ridiculous and that’s name calling. :)
 

misskarne

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I also don’t believe there was no reason for the Russian pairs to be banned. They know the reason. Should the Olympic committee be more transparent? Yes.

So you're calling Stolbova and Bukin liars?
 

Tinami Amori

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Last two are problematic to say the least... confidential information without any scruntiny.
Bukin and Stolbova still have not received any information about their specific situations, and not even the journalists with inside connections have much to say.
 

Twilight1

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If confidential info is provided, there could be repercussions on the person coming forward with info.

It is a catch 22. Whistleblowers face SEVERE repercussions coming forward in Russia. They will literally kill you as seen with the 2 accomplices of Rodchenkov.

Any other country I would be about transparency but given the level of fear there is in Russia. What can be done?

It isn't a level playing field with other countries.

People do not have the level of terror on them in other countries like Russia.

If this was the US, people would be pissed but they wouldn't follow through on murdering the people who came/come forward.

Makes me wonder if the infraction of Stolbova/ Bukin is something in line with Kostner... accomplice to duplicity or even providing clean urine for other athletes who were doping. (though Bukin would have been quite young...)
 

barbarafan

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If confidential info is provided, there could be repercussions on the person coming forward with info.

It is a catch 22. Whistleblowers face SEVERE repercussions coming forward in Russia. They will literally kill you as seen with the 2 accomplices of Rodchenkov.

Any other country I would be about transparency but given the level of fear there is in Russia. What can be done?

It isn't a level playing field with other countries.

People do not have the level of terror on them in other countries like Russia.

If this was the US, people would be pissed but they wouldn't follow through on murdering the people who came/come forward.

Makes me wonder if the infraction of Stolbova/ Bukin is something in line with Kostner... accomplice to duplicity or even providing clean urine for other athletes who were doping. (though Bukin would have been quite young...)

So if a clean sample where the DNA did not belong to the athlete with that number and upon further investigation found the DNA matched either Stolbova or Bukin that would make them an accomplice. However if their clean samples were provided
to the dopers handlers it could possibly be without their knowledge. What a mess. They were obviously having trouble obtaining enough clean samples for their tampering as animal and incorrect genders were discovered. That is so sick.
 

barbarafan

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This is all conjecture about Stolbova and Bukin until the IOC starts providing us real info

I agree but at least this is a possibility whereby Stolbova & Bukin both were unaware of what happened as well as a decision being made not to remove medals and/or banning them but not wanting them in the "white as snow Olympics"
 

Judy

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I agree but at least this is a possibility whereby Stolbova & Bukin both were unaware of what happened as well as a decision being made not to remove medals and/or banning them but not wanting them in the "white as snow Olympics"

It’s really impossible to know the truth. Something was amiss though.
 

Twilight1

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She didn’t say the argument was ridiculous. She asked me to stop being ridiculous, which implies she believes I am ridiculous and that’s name calling. :)

Your first half the the statement is true. People say ridiculous things all the time... it doesn't mean they are always ridiculous. Your statement was ridiculous and I asked you to stop. I.e. stop making ridiculous statements. Please don't read that much into my reply to you or see it as an attack on your character as a person.
 

misskarne

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My understanding was IOC knows the reason, anonymous tipping was one of the criteria apparently.

Anonymous tipping! Because THAT couldn't be abused at all!

If confidential info is provided, there could be repercussions on the person coming forward with info.

It is a catch 22. Whistleblowers face SEVERE repercussions coming forward in Russia. They will literally kill you as seen with the 2 accomplices of Rodchenkov.

Any other country I would be about transparency but given the level of fear there is in Russia. What can be done?

It isn't a level playing field with other countries.

People do not have the level of terror on them in other countries like Russia.

So...because they're Russian they don't have the right to know why they were banned. Righto...

It’s really impossible to know the truth. Something was amiss though.

So you ARE calling Stolbova and Bukin liars.
 

Twilight1

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You keep negating that this particular issue is a huge CURRENT issue in Russia. No other country has country wide, state sponsored doping.

For the record, I want any cheater to not be able to compete.

But don't let that little detail stop you from making further assumptions about me lol
 
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