IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[hanca]

So what about Hanyu who AFAIK takes asthma medication? He should be banned?

He shouldn’t be banned. He should decide whether he needs them badly enough, or whether is there is any alternative drug that is not banned. If he can’t be without them and if there are no alternatives, then he is not physically healthy to compete while being drug free. Alternatively, they could make it non banned drug - allowed for everyone.

 

[hanca]

So people with asthma, heart disease, blood pressure problems, mental health issues, etc are banned from competitive sport because poor Russians could not get away with taking a drug cocktail of steroids?

No, people with asthma, mental health issues etc would not be BANNED, they would be just unable to participate if they need to use banned drugs, because the sport is supposed to be drug free. The same way as certain professions have very strict medicals and if you fail it, you can’t do that profession. You also can’t be a bodyguard with significant health problems. But that wouldn’t be because of Russians. It is the athletes all over the world who are abusing this. US gymnasts, British cyclists....no need to blame Russia for everything. Though I am not sure how is what Russia did supposed to be any worse than abusing drugs ‘for medical exceptions ‘. But hurray, they are still within the rules, so they don’t have the label of cheaters.

 

[hanca]

OMG another conspiracy....Your talents are wasted on this forum....Did you get turned down by the KGB/FSB?

I had no idea that Kostner was supported by the Italian government for a state run doping strategy. Who helped her pass clean urine and supported her in this endeavour?

This is a fascinating retelling of her situation. Please share your

I am absolutely sure that people who lost a chance to medal because of someone’s individual doping won’t be any less unhappy than a person who lost a chance to medal because of government enabled doping. Doping is doping and has exactly the same negative effect on competitors who lose the opportunity to medal.

 

[Mad for Skating]

Okay, I'm going to state everything I think in plain English.

I in no way approve of state sponsored doping. I hate cheating and unfairness with a burning passion. If you are a proven doper, I think you should be suspended for AT LEAST four years, not one year or 16 months or whatever measly amount of time they actually get. When I heard Russia was cooking up a doping system, I was horrified and furious.

However, I am even more furious that Stolbova and Bukin, two athletes who cannot be proven guilty, had their Olympic dreams taken from them. If they had positive samples, I would have no problem banning them. But that's a big IF.

Personally, I think it's a big cover-up for the corruption between Thomas Bach and Vladimir Putin that happened in 2014.

The real people who need to be punished are Putin, the Russian sports organizations involved in the doping, and the athletes who were PROVEN guilty.
Not Stolbova and Bukin.

This topic is extremely hard for me to discuss. As a Stolbova uber for four years, I have spent more time crying and yelling about this than I care to remember. So these are my last words on the topic.

 

[Twilight1]

I am absolutely sure that people who lost a chance to medal because of someone’s individual doping won’t be any less unhappy than a person who lost a chance to medal because of government enabled doping. Doping is doping and has exactly the same negative effect on competitors who lose the opportunity to medal.

Newsflash- Kostner herself didn't dope.

 

[Twilight1]

Hanca- medical issues can develop BECAUSE of sport. Asthma being one of them...

That is why those athletes have to submit paperwork to explain the medication.

Depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar affective disorder etc doesn't show up until later adolescence/early adulthood. So with your "guidelines", someone could train for years and then because of a CHEMICAL IMBALANCE in their brain that is of NO FAULT of their own, your rules would mean they are also banned from competition.

Please explain how Haldol can enable better sport performance. Lithium? Effexor, Sertraline?

ADHD does not just go away and their are many medications that can treat it. People assume it is just stimulants. I work in the field... it isn't.

I would also like to add this link that discusses heart disease/ failure in athletes.

https://www.escardio.org/Journals/E...tes-pathophysiology-and-diagnostic-management

Your proposal, hanca, would be those impacted with medical issues will ignore their medical issues just so they can compete thus jeopardizing their lives daily.

Not to mention your "solution" is actually discrimination against people with mental health and medical illness.

This "crappy" treatment against SOME Russian athletes was because they were doping. It wouldn't have come to this if they didn't collectively cheat.

And honestly, we aren't going to know the truth for years.

But this poor Russians thing is sad. Stolbova and Bukin aside... which I am pretty sure I have ad nauseum shared my thoughts on...

 

[lala]

So what about Hanyu who AFAIK takes asthma medication? He should be banned?

No, because the FS is not only stamina...

 

[DELTA]

DELTA- It affects athletes from all extremely north cold climates... including Russia, Finland, Sweden, USA (Alaska) and Canada etc.

but please share your peer reviewed article to counter the one I linked above.

And how many of Norwegian skiers are adolescent? What about other countries from north cold climates?

 

[Twilight1]

And how many of Norwegian skiers are adolescent? What about other countries from north cold climates?

I covered that DELTA- posts 2062 and 2069.

 

[hanca]

Hanca- medical issues can develop BECAUSE of sport. Asthma being one of them...

That is why those athletes have to submit paperwork to explain the medication.

Depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar affective disorder etc doesn't show up until later adolescence/early adulthood. So with your "guidelines", someone could train for years and then because of a CHEMICAL IMBALANCE in their brain that is of NO FAULT of their own, your rules would mean they are also banned from competition.

Please explain how Haldol can enable better sport performance. Lithium? Effexor, Sertraline?

ADHD does not just go away and their are many medications that can treat it. People assume it is just stimulants. I work in the field... it isn't.

I would also like to add this link that discusses heart disease/ failure in athletes.

https://www.escardio.org/Journals/E...tes-pathophysiology-and-diagnostic-management

Your proposal, hanca, would be those impacted with medical issues will ignore their medical issues just so they can compete thus jeopardizing their lives daily.

Not to mention your "solution" is actually discrimination against people with mental health and medical illness.

This "crappy" treatment against SOME Russian athletes was because they were doping. It wouldn't have come to this if they didn't collectively cheat.

And honestly, we aren't going to know the truth for years.

But this poor Russians thing is sad. Stolbova and Bukin aside... which I am pretty sure I have ad nauseum shared my thoughts on...

I never said that any medical condition is their fault. However, some occupations require certain level of health. You won’t see a blind surgeon, you won’t see a wheelchair user fireman, or wheelchair user bodyguards, so I can’t see why elite athletes should be using any medications. That’s a reality, not discrimination. If someone is really for ‘clean’ sport and against any cheating, they should ensure that there is not possibility to cheat through having the medications prescribed by doctors. Or, alternatively, make the medications allowed for all athletes. If some athletes needs extra medications to be on ‘equal’ level for healthy athletes, what comes next? Will runners who bring a medical certificate that they are injured be allowed to start the race five seconds earlier to make it fair towards them? Or if some skater has the flu, will they be given extra five points in PCS to make up for the points lost due to lack of energy?

 

[hanca]

Newsflash- Kostner herself didn't dope.

Newsflash, I didn’t speak about Kostner. My point was that those who miss out on a medal due to someone else’s doping won’t care less whether the doper doped on their own or with someone’s help.

 

[Twilight1]

Pretty much the point we have made this entire thread.

Glad to see you are finally getting it.

Now can you make the connection to the systemic issue in Russia...

 

[Twilight1]

And saying someone who is perfectly capable of skiiing despite having asthma and not allowing them to compete IS discrimination.

Sport is a sport not a life saving job.

There is absolutely no correlation there. Just your desperate reaching...

 

[DELTA]

People are talking about Alina gaming the system to win. But Norwegians are the ones doing it.

 

[Judy]

I never said that any medical condition is their fault. However, some occupations require certain level of health. You won’t see a blind surgeon, you won’t see a wheelchair user fireman, or wheelchair user bodyguards, so I can’t see why elite athletes should be using any medications. That’s a reality, not discrimination. If someone is really for ‘clean’ sport and against any cheating, they should ensure that there is not possibility to cheat through having the medications prescribed by doctors. Or, alternatively, make the medications allowed for all athletes. If some athletes needs extra medications to be on ‘equal’ level for healthy athletes, what comes next? Will runners who bring a medical certificate that they are injured be allowed to start the race five seconds earlier to make it fair towards them? Or if some skater has the flu, will they be given extra five points in PCS to make up for the points lost due to lack of energy?

The athletes are given the list of banned substances. What you are saying is a bit crazy though. So a diabetic athlete shouldn’t compete nor should someone with epilepsy. That is just some examples.

 

[Twilight1]

Delta- How is backloading a program the same as an asthmatic filing a medical exception?

Because your loose associations are getting lost on me.

Truly none of your arguments are even making sense.

 

[hanca]

The athletes are given the list of banned substances. What you are saying is a bit crazy though. So a diabetic athlete shouldn’t compete nor should someone with epilepsy. That is just some examples.

How is it different from a wheelchair user not being able to become a fireman?
But as I said, if it is too harsh, they should stop the medications being banned. No exceptions. Either everyone can have them, or no one can. Level playing field.

 

[Twilight1]

Hanca- there is a difference between employment and sport and you know it.

Seriously stop being so utterly ridiculous.

 

[barbarafan]

How is it different from a wheelchair user not being able to become a fireman?
But as I said, if it is too harsh, they should stop the medications being banned. No exceptions. Either everyone can have them, or no one can. Level playing field.

OMG what part do you not understand...Taking the medications when you have the medical problems is what makes the level playing field or almost. The person who needs to take the medications are still at a disadvantage but still able to compete as long as they push themselves more and work harder. Why would you want to take that away from them? Is it just to justify doping to yourself?

 

[hanca]

OMG what part do you not understand...Taking the medications when you have the medical problems is what makes the level playing field or almost. The person who needs to take the medications are still at a disadvantage but still able to compete as long as they push themselves more and work harder. Why would you want to take that away from them? Is it just to justify doping to yourself?

That does not make the field level, because there is no way to prevent cheating by having athletes prescribe something they don’t need for medical needs. And it appears that it is not that rare!

 

[Judy]

How is it different from a wheelchair user not being able to become a fireman?
But as I said, if it is too harsh, they should stop the medications being banned. No exceptions. Either everyone can have them, or no one can. Level playing field.

Well I am type 1 diabetic and if I had chosen to be an athlete it wouldn’t have stopped me. Nor if I had choosen firefighting. There is a list of medications that are known bans that enable an athlete’s performance in sports. Insulin would not be one of them. I doubt athletes with a documented medical history that need certain meds are cheating vs a country forcing their athletes on illegal drugs. Your logic doesn’t make sense.

 

[Twilight1]

Hanca-

So are you saying that you know more than validated scientific studies?

Please post your proof of this statement.

Did you know heart disease is more prevalent in sport than initially realized?

Did you know that 25% of the WORLD population will be impacted by mental health in their lives?

Did you know Norway is not the only country with asthmatic long distance skiers?

Do you care about actual facts?

 

[hanca]

Hanca-

So are you saying that you know more than validated scientific studies?

Please post your proof of this statement.

Did you know heart disease is more prevalent in sport than initially realized?

Did you know that 25% of the WORLD population will be impacted by mental health in their lives?

Did you know Norway is not the only country with asthmatic long distance skiers?

Do you care about actual facts?

What I do know is that there is a percentage of athletes who have genuine medical conditions and a percentage of athletes who do not have medical conditions but have the drugs prescribed anyway. Thanks to drugs being allowed for some and not allowed for others, the field will never be level. There will always be athletes having things prescribed. So either allow the medications for everyone and then there are no exceptions, or ban the medications for everyone.

By the way, I didn’t see you proving through scientific studies that everyone’s conditions are genuine. So you are using big words about me contradicting validated medical studies, but didn’t really prove anything yourself, did you!

By the way, the question isn’t how big percentage of population suffers with this or that condition. That doesn’t prove anything. The question is whether it is being abused and it seems it is. So the only way how to fight against it is to close the loophole.

 

[barbarafan]

That does not make the field level, because there is no way to prevent cheating by having athletes prescribe something they don’t need for medical needs. And it appears that it is not that rare!

Athletes and coaches cannot prescribe drugs so it takes a doctor to be complicit and as well as prescribing has to fill out and sign TUE's..The people assigned to approve the Tue's know what they are doing and what to look for. If a whole team is taking something and Tue's are being passed then this is systemic and needs to be investigated thoroughly. Perhaps we need stronger background checks and more education for those approving these things so that it gets nipped in the bud and we maybe should be petitioning for this to happen...A whole team would not get asthma unless they were all involved in an incident where they were exposed to some sort of dangerous substance which would be pretty easy to prove or disprove. Maybe there needs to be some sort of panel of trained personnel which approve all Tue's.

 

[hanca]

Athletes and coaches cannot prescribe drugs so it takes a doctor to be complicit and as well as prescribing has to fill out and sign TUE's..The people assigned to approve the Tue's know what they are doing and what to look for. If a whole team is taking something and Tue's are being passed then this is systemic and needs to be investigated thoroughly. Perhaps we need stronger background checks and more education for those approving these things so that it gets nipped in the bud and we maybe should be petitioning for this to happen...A whole team would not get asthma unless they were all involved in an incident where they were exposed to some sort of dangerous substance which would be pretty easy to prove or disprove. Maybe there needs to be some sort of panel of trained personnel which approve all Tue's.

Look, just a few days ago questions were raised about British cyclists. Recently there were questions about Norwegian skiers, about certain gymnasts... let’s not be naive and believe that they are all honest. They are not. And it is not individuals, it seems to run within countries. Do you really believe that there are no bent doctors who would prescribe anything the athlete asks for? Well, we all know about a doctor who abused hundreds of gymnasts, why is it so hard to believe that he could prescribe something?

 

[misskarne]

Newsflash- Kostner herself didn't dope.

Newsflash: Kostner knowingly and wilfully engaged in behaviour contrary to anti-doping rules. She knowingly and wilfully tried to cover up another athlete's doping violation. Then she knowingly and wilfully lied to investigators until she realised they had her dead to rights.

So again: you're perfectly fine with someone who knowingly and wilfully flouted the anti-doping rules being at the Olympics, but the very idea that innocent Russian athletes, who were not involved in the situation and likely knew nothing about it, should go or should celebrate who they are sends you into a rage.

I suppose you were delighted that Justin Gatlin was running for the US in Rio, too.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Carolina is a darling, a very decent person, and never took any drugs, ever! Did anyone expected her to snitch on her OWN BOYFRIEND???!!! The anti-doping rules which demand such "snitching on a relative/family member" should be eliminated. It's not a robbery or a murder... If she was his wife, she would not have to testify against her husband..... so she is not a wife, but a longtime girlfriend, same thing...

 

[Judy]

Look, just a few days ago questions were raised about British cyclists. Recently there were questions about Norwegian skiers, about certain gymnasts... let’s not be naive and believe that they are all honest. They are not. And it is not individuals, it seems to run within countries. Do you really believe that there are no bent doctors who would prescribe anything the athlete asks for? Well, we all know about a doctor who abused hundreds of gymnasts, why is it so hard to believe that he could prescribe something?

 

[barbarafan]

Look, just a few days ago questions were raised about British cyclists. Recently there were questions about Norwegian skiers, about certain gymnasts... let’s not be naive and believe that they are all honest. They are not. And it is not individuals, it seems to run within countries. Do you really believe that there are no bent doctors who would prescribe anything the athlete asks for? Well, we all know about a doctor who abused hundreds of gymnasts, why is it so hard to believe that he could prescribe something?

Again we need more checks and balances and very important more consequences for those who are caught which includes lifetime banns for anyone caught doping or aiding someone to dope...the whole team...not just the athlete... Do more investigations of each case to catch anyone up the ladder. This sh**it needs to be stopped.

 

[Judy]

Of course there are other countries and of course there are doctors. there is also a big difference with people with disabilities such as blindness or missing a limb. That is why we have different Olympics for them. Then there is a difference between life saving medication and a documented history of medical need and care. There is also a big difference between an athlete choosing to dope vs a country forcing their athletes. I despise cheating in sport but I despise Russia for giving their athletes no choice.