2022 Olympic Qualifying Changes?

[SLIVER]

What I don't understand is, if you are China and Japan and you have 'qualified' a team, but they still need to go to Nebelhorn, isn't that essentially a 're-qualification' test and so really, they haven't officially qualified a team

 

[Karen-W]

In addition, there are 16 spots to be earned at Worlds so if my math is correct Hungary & the Czech Republic have also earned an Olympic berth.

Apparently, some of the feds are telling Jackie Wong privately that the extra spots for China and Japan are being considered part of the 16 awarded at Worlds, even though that's NOT what it says in the qualifying document.

The timeline in the document also states that the ISU will publish no less than 3 weeks after Worlds the initial list of qualified countries for all disciplines, so it's possible that Japan just straight away says "we don't have a 2nd pairs team, we're giving it back" rather than try to hold onto it until at least Nebelhorn.

 

[skatingguy]

Apparently, some of the feds are telling Jackie Wong privately that the extra spots for China and Japan are being considered part of the 16 awarded at Worlds, even though that's NOT what it says in the qualifying document.

The timeline in the document also states that the ISU will publish no less than 3 weeks after Worlds the initial list of qualified countries for all disciplines, so it's possible that Japan just straight away says "we don't have a 2nd pairs team, we're giving it back" rather than try to hold onto it until at least Nebelhorn.

Yes, but it's Jackie Wong so I'm ignoring it for the time being - I think @tony, and others have this figured out & I'll go with that interpretation because it makes the most sense until we get confirmation from the ISU.

 

[Frau Muller]

I don’t give a rusty hoot about the tricky rules. Just let me see a list of the Olympic qualifiers (countries and # of spots each) by Jan 1, 2022! I’ll just RELAX and enjoy the skating at Nebelhorn, the G-P series, various Nationals...quite a change from 2020/21.

 

[tony]

The problem and the reason Czech Republic and Hungary should be all over the ISU right now is the wording that says the federations have the right to 2 or 3 spots ONLY IF, IN ADDITION, all of said skaters were in the long program or free dance.

Now I don't care what kind of way anyone decides to interpret this after the fact. If you don't have skaters actually in the long programs, they are not entitled to holding those initial allotment spots, you are not in section D1 at all, don't collect $200, do not pass go.

But do go to D2, where those 3 extra allotted spots via Nebelhorn are addressed:

• NOCs which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021. This quota place will be in addition to the quota place(s) that the NOC had earned in D.1. These ISU members are entitled to enter one (1) Skater in the qualifying event who had not qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021.

 

[SLIVER]

Also what's with '19' couples? Are we having 19 at the Olympics and not 20? If that's so the host nation can have a spot, surely with it being in China, there is no need for this rule this time around.

 

[Erin]

So I originally thought (way back when) that things would work the way that Jackie Wong posted, but then I read the document and what people posted here and decided I misunderstood. Now I don’t know which one is right. I will say, it is typical ISU to write something that is unclear.

I don’t know if this will make things more or less clear, but I found the discussion from when it was originally approved at the ISU Congress:

ISU Congress

And @aftershocks you never fail to remind this board that you dislike Hanyu, whatever thread you're posting in, but IIRC the general consensus here is not that "he's the greatest artist ever graced the ice", even if he's really good, so those endless sarcastically sentences are getting a bit...

www.fsuniverse.net

I don’t have time to read the thread because I have a meeting in 5 minutes, but maybe by the time my meeting is over, everyone will have figured it out

 

[thvu]

The problem and the reason Czech Republic and Hungary should be all over the ISU right now is the wording that says the federations have the right to 2 or 3 spots ONLY IF, IN ADDITION, all of said skaters were in the long program or free dance.

These feds should have lawyers drafting letters right now.

 

[Karen-W]

The problem and the reason Czech Republic and Hungary should be all over the ISU right now is the wording that says the federations have the right to 2 or 3 spots ONLY IF, IN ADDITION, all of said skaters were in the long program or free dance.

Now I don't care what kind of way anyone decides to interpret this after the fact. If you don't have skaters actually in the long programs, they are not entitled to holding those initial allotment spots, you are not in section D1 at all, don't collect $200, do not pass go.

But do go to D2, where those 3 extra allotted spots via Nebelhorn are addressed:

Exactly. I don't think there is any way that a federation can, reasonably, interpret the document to mean that they get the 2nd or 3rd spot awarded on some "conditional" basis as long as whomever they send to Nebelhorn places in the top 3.

If I were HUN and CZE, you bet I'd be on the phone with my NOC to take this to CAS if the ISU says they aren't getting those spots based on the Worlds results.

 

[skatingguy]

We always need to keep in mind that this is the same ISU that gave the Chinese an extra spot at the Junior Worlds they hadn't earned, and ended up with 22 pairs in 2018 when it was supposed to be 20, so really anything can happen.

 

[tony]

We always need to keep in mind that this is the same ISU that gave the Chinese an extra spot at the Junior Worlds they hadn't earned, and ended up with 22 pairs in 2018 when it was supposed to be 20, so really anything can happen.

And you better believe I kept writing to them about it!

 

[skatingguy]

And you better believe I kept writing to them about it!

I'm not surprised that you're that kind of 'Can I talk to the Federation?' type.

 

[tony]

We always need to keep in mind that this is the same ISU that gave the Chinese an extra spot at the Junior Worlds they hadn't earned, and ended up with 22 pairs in 2018 when it was supposed to be 20, so really anything can happen.

22 pairs in 2018 Olympics was known: The North Korean team was granted a wildcard as they didn't qualify via Nebelhorn and South Korea wanted to do something nice (this wasn't only for figure skating IIRC), and the South Korean team got in via the known wildcard spot, IIRC. I believe that is always a thing, and maybe quite possibly why the number of 'official' entries dropped to 19.

The ISU used to have a rule at Worlds that a skater from the host nation would always make it to the long program, even if they were dead last in qualifying and the short program. I think that is along the same lines regarding the IOC.

 

[skatingguy]

22 pairs in 2018 Olympics was known: The North Korean team was granted a wildcard as they didn't qualify via Nebelhorn and South Korea wanted to do something nice (this wasn't only for figure skating IIRC), and the South Korean team got in via the known wildcard spot, IIRC. I believe that is always a thing, and maybe quite possibly why the number of 'official' entries dropped to 19.

The ISU used to have a rule at Worlds that a skater from the host nation would always make it to the long program, even if they were dead last in qualifying and the short program. I think that is along the same lines regarding the IOC.

Oh yes, I know why it was done in 2018 - my point was that they are the ISU's rules & therefore they can find ways around them.

 

[danafan]

22 pairs in 2018 Olympics was known: The North Korean team was granted a wildcard as they didn't qualify via Nebelhorn and South Korea wanted to do something nice (this wasn't only for figure skating IIRC), and the South Korean team got in via the known wildcard spot, IIRC. I believe that is always a thing, and maybe quite possibly why the number of 'official' entries dropped to 19.

The ISU used to have a rule at Worlds that a skater from the host nation would always make it to the long program, even if they were dead last in qualifying and the short program. I think that is along the same lines regarding the IOC.

The North Korean team did qualify at Nebelhorn: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/csger2017/CAT003RS.HTM

As I recall they gave up their spot initially and it went to the next team, then they got invited again by South Korea as a nice gesture as you said.

 

[Sabine-Yuna]

So at Nebelhorn there will be 3 spots to earn for pairs plus the 2 of China and Japan. I guess China will have another pair ready then to grab that spot. Japan not, so it's four spots for anyone who did not get one at worlds and one that China still has to earn. Did I get it right?

 

[tony]

The North Korean team did qualify at Nebelhorn: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/csger2017/CAT003RS.HTM

As I recall they gave up their spot initially and it went to the next team, then they got invited again by South Korea as a nice gesture as you said.

Correct! For some reason, I thought PRK didn't even try at Nebelhorn for whatever reason.

 

[Colonel Green]

So at Nebelhorn there will be 3 spots to earn for pairs plus the 2 of China and Japan. I guess China will have another pair ready then to grab that spot. Japan not, so it's four spots for anyone who did not get one at worlds and one that China still has to earn. Did I get it right?

Yes, that's the case.

 

[Karen-W]

So at Nebelhorn there will be 3 spots to earn for pairs plus the 2 of China and Japan. I guess China will have another pair ready then to grab that spot. Japan not, so it's four spots for anyone who did not get one at worlds and one that China still has to earn. Did I get it right?

That's up for debate. The way most of us here are interpreting the new qualification process, China & Japan's "additional" spots would be part of the 3 that are up for grabs at Nebelhorn. But apparently some of the feds have told Jackie Wong that isn't the case.

It all depends on whether or not China and Japan's additional spots count in the first 16 spots allocated based on Worlds results (they shouldn't per the document). If they do count then there are 3 spots + China & Japan. If they don't then Hungary & Czech Republic qualify based on Worlds and there are still 3 spots open but China & Japan's extra teams would be competing for one of those 3 spots.

 

[miffy]

So confusing I was quite happy with Tony’s explanation of how it worked!
I liked the idea they had just earned the right to a chance to qualify an additional spot at Nebelhorn. I think that way is a good compromise. But I guess either way is still an improvement.

 

[allezfred]

He’s saying he has confirmation from federations. I really don’t think so, it’s not what is written.

I think he has bad information this time because that is clearly not what is written in the rules which the ISU agreed with the IOC.

 

[allezfred]

22 pairs in 2018 Olympics was known: The North Korean team was granted a wildcard as they didn't qualify via Nebelhorn and South Korea wanted to do something nice (this wasn't only for figure skating IIRC), and the South Korean team got in via the known wildcard spot, IIRC. I believe that is always a thing, and maybe quite possibly why the number of 'official' entries dropped to 19.

The ISU used to have a rule at Worlds that a skater from the host nation would always make it to the long program, even if they were dead last in qualifying and the short program. I think that is along the same lines regarding the IOC.

There is still a host country spot in each discipline if the host country doesn't qualify either via Worlds or Nebelhorn.

 

[mjb52]

I am not even trying to understand. I know you guys will sort it out for me by the time Nebelhorn is over and I'll check in then!

 

[kwanfan1818]

We always need to keep in mind that this is the same ISU that gave the Chinese an extra spot at the Junior Worlds they hadn't earned,

I thought the ISU never published that China was allotted three spots, only that China sent three, and they accepted the applications without checking. Is this wrong?

 

[greenapple]

The North Korean team did qualify at Nebelhorn: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/csger2017/CAT003RS.HTM

As I recall they gave up their spot initially and it went to the next team, then they got invited again by South Korea as a nice gesture as you said.

The North Koreans did not give up their spot. They never answered any communications about whether they were sending a team and never filed the required paperwork until the last minute. The ISU gave the spot to another team because it was believed PRK was not sending one.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The North Koreans did not give up their spot. They never answered any communications about whether they were sending a team and never filed the required paperwork until the last minute. The ISU gave the spot to another team because it was believed PRK was not sending one.

Was the last minute past the deadline for actively accepting, which is a requirement to keep a spot? If you don't respond/file paperwork by the deadline, that is giving up a spot. It would have been an exception to let them compete, which I'm glad they did.

 

[shuilee]

Back in 2018 Congress, Bianchetti referred to 2017 Worlds Pairs as an example with so many nations getting multiple entries (that were not used like with FRA) and pushing the lower ranked countries out of the direct qualification and therefore out of the judge drawing.

It does seem to imply that Bianchetti's original intention is for lower-ranked countries (like HUN and CZE this year) to be able to get Olympic spots.

But I wonder if ISU changed their minds since 2018.

 

[5Ali3]

Also what's with '19' couples? Are we having 19 at the Olympics and not 20? If that's so the host nation can have a spot, surely with it being in China, there is no need for this rule this time around.

The IOC allocates a certain number of athlete credentials to each sport and then each sport decides how to allocate them. There are five “additional athlete quota” spots that would go first to the host country if they didn’t qualify an entry in that discipline and then to “incomplete teams” in the team competition (athletes who will only get to compete in the team competition for teams who didn’t qualify an entry into one of the four disciplines). The pair event quota is 19 teams and the dance event quota is 23 teams. The “missing” pair and dance entries that you’d expect to fully fill five practice/warmup groups - those credentials went to the “additional athlete quota,” which is basically to fill up the incomplete team competition teams. (Every event is five practice/warm up groups: 6 Max per session for Singles (30 entries total); 4 for Pairs (should be 20 total); 5 for Dance (should be 25 total).)

tl;dr: The team event is the Godzilla who ate the missing pair team (1) and dance (2) entries.

But I wonder if ISU changed their minds since 2018.

Occasionally I wonder if the ISU has changed their mind since 1918.

 

[Karen-W]

Was the last minute past the deadline for actively accepting, which is a requirement to keep a spot? If you don't respond/file paperwork by the deadline, that is giving up a spot. It would have been an exception to let them compete, which I'm glad they did.

Per the 2022 document, NOCs have 24hrs to respond upon notification of receiving a spot in any discipline and no response = declining the spot. I am fairly certain that has been the case for several Olympic cycles now so the PRK NOC didn't affirm to the IOC/ISU that they would, indeed, use their allocated pairs spot in time and the IOC/ISU gave it to the next country in line. I wonder if it had something to do with the fact that PRK wasn't sure they would send any delegation at all to the OWG in 2018 due to their relations with South Korea, so they just didn't respond when they got the notification.

 

[Jammers]

So why these funky new rules for qualifying Olympic spots?