2022 Olympic Qualifying Changes?

[tony]

https://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links-2/2022-beijing/qualification-systems-3/22994-figure-skating-v1-0/file

This is taken from a post by @skatingguy in the Trash Can, but I'm going to further elaborate on what I understand to be a new rule:

First, as was pointed out there, the quota for pairs (19 spots) and dance (23 spots) has gone down by 1.

Second, as per D1 and the way I'm reading it:

If a country earns two (or more spots) for the Olympics via 2021 Worlds, all skaters MUST make the free skate/free dance in order to automatically guarantee that spot. What I think this means, is use this hypothetical: Tursynbaeva actually does compete at Worlds this year, finishes in the top 10, and earns two spots for Kazakhstan next season. Let's use Aiza Mambekova as the hypothetical here (granted she makes her TES minimums) and goes to Worlds 2021, but fails to make the free skate. Tursynbaeva finishes in the top 10 again, 'earns' two spots for next Worlds, but only earns one spot for the Olympic event. Mambekova (or any other skater, apparently?) can then go to the Olympic qualifying event in autumn 2021 and compete to earn that spot with other countries looking to earn an initial spot because Kazakhstan has potentially earned two entries.

I'm also reading this to say the following (but you know ISU wording): If there is one entry from... let's say France in 2021, and that skater finishes within the top 10 at Worlds, earning two spots to Beijing, the second skater would still have to earn their way into the Olympics via the qualifying competition since they did not qualify to the free skate in 2021. It wouldn't make much sense to allow this skater (country) automatically a ticket to the Games but not the skater who actually did compete at Worlds..

If this is indeed the case, then here is where I'm confused. Using mens/ladies singles, the quota filled at 2021 Worlds remains at 24 entries- that is unchanged. But if a country loses a spot for Beijing somewhere along the way via final placements, are they then going to 25th place to fill out the 24 spots? 25th place wasn't qualifying for the free skate, and in the ISU document it says skaters must qualify for the free skate. Or do they just cap the entries going all the way down to 24th, and however many remaining are up for grabs in the fall? I would assume it's that- but it doesn't really say so.

ETA- it says the country is entitled to 1 skater in the qualifying event, but what happens if, using Tursynbaeva again (and in this hypothetical she's the lone Kazakh entry at 2021 Worlds), she finishes in 2nd place at Worlds again and earns 3 spots for Kazakhstan? Then only one of those two additional spots could be qualified in the autumn?

 

[skatingguy]

Yeah, the document doesn't seem to address the scenario that you've outlined. If you have it correct, it would seem to make it even more important that countries earn multiple spots this season, because it will be harder to achieve multiple entries for Olympics next season.

Based on the previous Olympic cycle the following countries would have had to have competed at Nebelhorn in order to use the entries they had initially earned at the 2017 World Championships. This is going to add a lot more skaters to the qualifying event.
Men
China (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)
Israel (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)
Spain (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)
United States (3 entries - only 2 made the free skate)

Ladies
Canada (3 entries - only 2 made the free skate)
Italy (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)
Kazakhstan (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)
Korea (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)

Pairs
China (3 entries - only 2 made the free skate)
France (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)
Germany (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)

Ice Dance
France (2 entries - only 1 made the free skate)

 

[tony]

On top of that, what if a skater earns a place at the Olympics for their country and then is injured or retires before the event? Then someone, who did not qualify for the free skate the year before/did not compete, can automatically step into that position?

I get that the ISU seems to be combatting the whole 'finish in the top 24 but miss out on an Olympic spot' thing, like when Ana Cecilia Cantu finished 24th in 2009, as an example. That year, only the top 21? placers earned their country a spot, while France, Austria, and Mexico were left to try again in the autumn. Or more recently, the US pairs situation at the Olympics when two spots were qualified via the previous Worlds rules, but the quota was filled up and only one team was allowed to go, while the other wasn't eligible to compete for the spot in the autumn.

But really, wouldn't this only work how the ISU envisions it if the SKATER earned the automatic spot, rather than the country?

 

[misskarne]

Or more recently, the US pairs situation at the Olympics when two spots were qualified via the previous Worlds rules, but the quota was filled up and only one team was allowed to go, while the other wasn't eligible to compete for the spot in the autumn.

I think it's a combination reacting to the US pairs/French pairs thing last time, where the two spots were "earned" on the strength of one team, while each country's other team didn't even make the free skate, and the Czechs, North Koreans and Australians missed out on pre-qualifying a spot even though they did make the free skate.

 

[tony]

@skatingguy has found the answer to this question below:

Another question- say Japan for whatever reason has two men competing at 2021 Worlds. Their third entry is potentially qualified back based on their placements. Who is to say that Hanyu cannot be the one to go compete for that third spot in the autumn? Or really anyone who qualified the first spot- why can't they go back to qualify the second spot? After all, the battle is for a spot for the country, not for the individual skater at that point.

So much here left open to whatever interpretation we want, I guess.

 

[skatingguy]

Another question- say Japan for whatever reason has two men competing at 2021 Worlds. Their third entry is potentially qualified back based on their placements. Who is to say that Hanyu cannot be the one to go compete for that third spot in the autumn? Or really anyone who qualified the first spot- why can't they go back to qualify the second spot? After all, the battle is for a spot for the country, not for the individual skater at that point.

So much here left open to whatever interpretation we want, I guess.

That point is covered within the Qualifying document:

NOCs which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021. This quota place will be in addition to the quota place(s) that the NOC had earned in D.1. These ISU members are entitled to enter one (1) Skater in the qualifying event who had not qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021.

 

[Coco]

Is there a qualifying score for the Olympics like there is for Continental championships in world championships?

I appreciate but they are trying to do, but I think it would have been easier to just require that the skaters going to the Olympics achieve a score that would have qualified them to the free skate at the prior year's world championships.

But even that is kind of silly, since a lot of people can accomplish a decent short program score but can't do much more in the long.

What is the real goal here? To maximize the number of participating countries? Or to have the highest level of skaters possible?

 

[skatingguy]

Is there a qualifying score for the Olympics like there is for Continental championships in world championships?

I appreciate but they are trying to do, but I think it would have been easier to just require that the skaters going to the Olympics achieve a score that would have qualified them to the free skate at the prior year's world championships.

But even that is kind of silly, since a lot of people can accomplish a decent short program score but can't do much more in the long.

What is the real goal here? To maximize the number of participating countries? Or to have the highest level of skaters possible?

Yes, skaters have to earn the same minimum scores that apply to Europeans/Four Continents in order to compete at the Olympics.

 

[tony]

What is the real goal here? To maximize the number of participating countries? Or to have the highest level of skaters possible?

Maybe a combination of not having the pairs qualifying mess from 2018 and getting rid of the 2-3 entries each Olympic cycle that probably have 0% chance of qualifying but made it because of another skater/team from their country either earned the spot for them or withdrew and gave said skater(s) the spot by default. But the latter could still apply in this situation, anyways.

 

[Debbie S]

So the spots go to the specific skater, not the country? So let's say the U.S. has 2 ladies at 2021 Worlds and they earn 3 spots for the Olys, a 3rd skater has to qualify at Nebelhorn? And that specific skater has to go to the Olys, regardless of Nats/BOW? If this rule had been in effect in 2018, a 2nd U.S. pair team could have earned a spot at Nebelhorn, but they would have had to be the team at the Olys?

And why drop 1 entry from pairs and dance? It's not going to change the number of warmup groups...they'll save 7-8 minutes at each event. Really, ISU?

 

[allezfred]

So the spots go to the specific skater, not the country?

No, the spots still go to the country. However, a skater/skaters who earned the spot/spots outright will not be able to compete at the final Olympic qualifier to secure any additional spots.

 

[Lizziebeth]

No, the spots still go to the country. However, a skater/skaters who earned the spot/spots outright will not be able to compete at the final Olympic qualifier to secure any additional spots.

And that means that the individual Federations need to send skaters out to events to get qualifying scores if needed. And Federations make the decisions on who to send to the Olympics. Assigning the spots to a specific skater would be a bad thing, for all the reasons already mentioned.

 

[skatingguy]

And why drop 1 entry from pairs and dance? It's not going to change the number of warmup groups...they'll save 7-8 minutes at each event. Really, ISU?

I think this is more about the IOC than the ISU. The IOC is desperate to control the size of the games, particularly the # of athletes that are competing, but at the same time they want to level the gender difference, increase the number of events, and keep the games relevant by introducing new sports/events that appeal to younger generations. That means trimming athlete counts in existing sports. Trim a few athletes here or there and you can add somewhere else - hence the Artistic Gymnastics teams are down to 4 members for Toyko 2020 when they used be 7 members a couple decades ago. The ISU has an allocation of 144 athletes for figure skating in 2022, and in 2018 it was 148, plus up to 5 additional athletes for countries that qualify for the team event but don't qualify in all four disciplines, and in 2018 they send 153 athletes so they want to make sure they are under the cap.

 

[kwanfan1818]

It shouldn't matter if a strong skater earns a spot, but doesn't skate in the Olympics, or if two do, and neither skates, under the new scheme any more than it matters under the current rules. The new rule is keep countries from getting more spots than the number of skaters who perform well, defined as those having made the FS the year before. Those spots are considered earned.

If I understand this correctly, a skater who didn't make the FS the year before doesn't have to be the one competing at Nebelhorn: they just can't have made the FS. If a strong skater skipped Worlds for whatever reason in the pre-Olympic season, or didn't make the team, like Osmond didn't in a comeback year, they could compete at the Fall qualifier, too.

 

[Dobre]

And a junior athlete moving up to seniors during the Olympic season would be able to compete at the qualifier.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I don’t get the confusion and drama over this. The point is to keep countries with one standout skater from earning extra spots for much weaker skaters who couldn’t have qualified on their own over countries that have skaters who deserve to be there.

At worlds, if Tursy earns 3 spots for KAZ, that doesn’t mean that some countries now get 0 spots, so there’s no reason to have a check on that. But if Tursy won silver the year before the olympics as the only skater from KAZ, she’d earn 2 extra spots for KAZ which would take 2 spots from 2 other countries. And those 2 countries very well might have athletes who deserve to be there more than two more ladies from KAZ.

This gives two non-Tursy ladies a chance to skate to prove KAZ deserves those two spots over any other country while also giving the other countries a chance to keep those spots.

 

[zebobes]

I don’t get the confusion and drama over this. The point is to keep countries with one standout skater from earning extra spots for much weaker skaters who couldn’t have qualified on their own over countries that have skaters who deserve to be there.

At worlds, if Tursy earns 3 spots for KAZ, that doesn’t mean that some countries now get 0 spots, so there’s no reason to have a check on that. But if Tursy won silver the year before the olympics as the only skater from KAZ, she’d earn 2 extra spots for KAZ which would take 2 spots from 2 other countries. And those 2 countries very well might have athletes who deserve to be there more than two more ladies from KAZ.

This gives two non-Tursy ladies a chance to skate to prove KAZ deserves those two spots over any other country while also giving the other countries a chance to keep those spots.

Only one non-Tursy lady could qualify, you can’t have two ladies from the same country at the Olympic qualifier. So Kaz would have three spots at worlds, but could at max have two spots for the Olympics.

Yuna qualified three spots for Korea in 2013, so this would prevent that direct jump from one spot to three. Or something like France deciding to send only one Dance team to worlds next year to ensure three spots at the Olympics.

 

[Orm Irian]

I don’t get the confusion and drama over this. The point is to keep countries with one standout skater from earning extra spots for much weaker skaters who couldn’t have qualified on their own over countries that have skaters who deserve to be there.

Funny thing about the Olympics; every athlete who puts in the effort to make their work today 'swifter, higher, stronger' than it was yesterday 'deserves' to be there under the spirit of the Olympic oath. That's what the motto means; go check out the history of the motto and oath at the Olympic Museum if you don't believe me. Aiza Mambekova had every right to be at the last Olympics; she had the TES minimums and would therefore still have been eligible to represent Kazakhstan on her own even if Tursynbaeva had never been born or thought of. The fact that they had a second skater who was also eligible says nothing whatsoever about her worthiness.

The Olympics are about doing your best, not only letting an exclusive little club of 'the best' in to start with. Or have we forgotten Eddie the Eagle so soon?

 

[RoseRed]

Funny thing about the Olympics; every athlete who puts in the effort to make their work today 'swifter, higher, stronger' than it was yesterday 'deserves' to be there under the spirit of the Olympic oath. That's what the motto means; go check out the history of the motto and oath at the Olympic Museum if you don't believe me. Aiza Mambekova had every right to be at the last Olympics; she had the TES minimums and would therefore still have been eligible to represent Kazakhstan on her own even if Tursynbaeva had never been born or thought of. The fact that they had a second skater who was also eligible says nothing whatsoever about her worthiness.

The Olympics are about doing your best, not only letting an exclusive little club of 'the best' in to start with. Or have we forgotten Eddie the Eagle so soon?

I don't disagree with your general point, but Aiza would have had to qualify a spot, which would not have been a guarantee.

 

[zebobes]

I think it's a combination reacting to the US pairs/French pairs thing last time, where the two spots were "earned" on the strength of one team, while each country's other team didn't even make the free skate, and the Czechs, North Koreans and Australians missed out on pre-qualifying a spot even though they did make the free skate.

I just realized that with the change in now qualifying 20 pairs to the FS instead of 16, we could very well end up with the same problem as before, with teams in 14-16 place not qualifying for the Olympics out of the gate...

Which just shows, 19 pairs for the Olympics really isn’t ideal at all.

 

[Marco]

OK that means if a country qualifies for 3 skaters at 2021 Worlds for next Worlds / Olympics -

• with 3 skaters that all made the free skate, then nothing is changed;
• with just 2 skaters (regardless of whether 2 or 3 skaters competed), then essentially only 2 are guaranteed and the country gets to send 1 skater to Nebelhorn to fight and activate the final spot for the Olympics;
• with just 1 skater that placed top 2, then essentially only 1 is guaranteed and the country gets to send 2 skaters to Nebelhorn to fight and activate either or both spots for the Olympics.

If a country qualifies for 2 skaters at 2021 Worlds for next Worlds / Olympics -

• with 2 skaters that all made the free skate, then nothing is changed;
• with just 1 skater (regardless of whether 1 or 2 or 3 skaters competed), then essentially only 1 are guaranteed and the country gets to send 1 skater to Nebelhorn to fight and activate the final spot for the Olympics.

Spots are still earned for the country at either Worlds or Nebelhorn. Skaters who earned those spots can be totally different to those skaters who are ultimately sent as long as they make the required minimums.

CORRECT?

If yes, I wonder why this is necessary. As said above, couldn't they just set the Olympic minimums high enough to block out the freeriders? Either way the extra spots would be fought for at Nebelhorn. The IOC / ISU can set a time limit on achieving the Olympic minimums by Nebelhorn. That way, all spots could be finalized by the conclusion of Nebelhorn.

 

[kwanfan1818]

ith just 1 skater that placed top 2, then essentially only 1 is guaranteed and the country gets to send 2 skaters to Nebelhorn to fight and activate either or both spots for the Olympics.

No, only one skater can be entered and one spot earned at the qualifier (emphasis mine):

Only the following NOCs may be allocated a quota place [at the Olympic qualifier]:
• NOCs which have not earned any quota places in the respective discipline in D.1 [prior Worlds];
• NOCs which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021. This
quota place will be in addition to the quota place(s) that the NOC had earned in D.1. These ISU members are entitled to enter one (1) Skater in the qualifying event who had not qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021.

So if there are three spots, and only one skater makes the FS, the member can send any one other skater to compete at the Qualifier. As someone wrote earlier, this takes away the incentive to send one skater/team to prior Worlds in order to earn three Olympic spots. (Of course, they could still earn three spots for post-Olympic Worlds.)

 

[Marco]

Thanks @kwanfan1818 This makes a lot more sense.

 

[seabm7]

At the 2017 Worlds, Austratilians, North Koreans, and Czechs advanced to free, but could not get a ticket. They had to go to Nebelhorn to get the ticket.

What would have happened if ISU had applied the new system to them? Would they got the ticket right away at the 2017 Worlds, since China could not get the 3rd ticket and Germany and France could not get the 2nd ticket?

And here is the second question. Could US compete for the 2nd ticket at Nebelhorn, too?

 

[skatingguy]

At the 2017 Worlds, Austratilians, North Koreans, and Czechs advanced to free, but could not get a ticket. They had to go to Nebelhorn to get the ticket.

What would have happened if ISU had applied the new system to them? Would they got the ticket right away at the 2017 Worlds, since China could not get the 3rd ticket and Germany and France could not get the 2nd ticket?

No, because China, Germany, & France would have those tickets pending the results of the Olympic qualifier.

And here is the second question. Could US compete for the 2nd ticket at Nebelhorn, too?

It's not clear, but maybe.

Only the following NOCs may be allocated a quota place:
• NOCs which have not earned any quota places in the respective discipline in D.1;
• NOCs which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Funny thing about the Olympics; every athlete who puts in the effort to make their work today 'swifter, higher, stronger' than it was yesterday 'deserves' to be there under the spirit of the Olympic oath. That's what the motto means; go check out the history of the motto and oath at the Olympic Museum if you don't believe me. Aiza Mambekova had every right to be at the last Olympics; she had the TES minimums and would therefore still have been eligible to represent Kazakhstan on her own even if Tursynbaeva had never been born or thought of. The fact that they had a second skater who was also eligible says nothing whatsoever about her worthiness.

The Olympics are about doing your best, not only letting an exclusive little club of 'the best' in to start with. Or have we forgotten Eddie the Eagle so soon?

Which is all well and good under the spirit of the Olympic oath, but under the practicality that only a few skaters get to go, her being there took a spot from someone who also, by your dramatic restatement of the Olympic oath, deserved to be there.

Not everyone gets to compete at the olympics, so yes, those who earn it should be there.

 

[allezfred]

No, because China, Germany, & France would have those tickets pending the results of the Olympic qualifier.

That’s not how I read it. China, Germany and France would not get a quota because their second or third team did not participate in the free at 2017 Worlds. It would only confer them the right to enter one team at Nebelhorn to earn the additional spot.

What this means if I am understanding things correctly is that qualifying for the free at Worlds in the year preceding the Olympics becomes much more important in qualifying Olympic spots. So the Czech, North Koreans and Australians would have qualified at 2017 Worlds and the US would have been entitled to send a team to Nebelhorn to pick up another spot.

 

[Dobre]

Not everyone gets to compete at the olympics, so yes, those who earn it should be there.

Agreeing with you in general. Just noting that since athletes without citizenship can earn the berths, there will still likely be athletes at the Olympics that are at a lower level than those which qualify. I cannot think how this could fairly be changed either as sometimes athletes without citizenship have to prove they are capable of qualifying for the Olympics before they can get citizenship, while other times there is no legal path to doing so. Some athletes get it after the qualifier & others don't.

 

[zebobes]

That’s not how I read it. China, Germany and France would not get a quota because their second or third team did not participate in the free at 2017 Worlds. It would only confer them the right to enter one team at Nebelhorn to earn the additional spot.

What this means if I am understanding things correctly is that qualifying for the free at Worlds in the year preceding the Olympics becomes much more important in qualifying Olympic spots. So the Czech, North Koreans and Australians would have qualified at 2017 Worlds and the US would have been entitled to send a team to Nebelhorn to pick up another spot.

But, now we have 20 pairs qualified for the free. So based on the standings (assuming that places 17-20 remained as they were and didn't move up in the free), Germany (19th place) and the US (20th place) would have both pairs in the free, with only China and France without automatic extra spots. That means, only the Czech team would have been the additional team to automatically qualify, and the US would have been able to get two spots to the Olympics. Australia and North Korea would have been out of luck.

 

[allezfred]

But, now we have 20 pairs qualified for the free.

Well 20 pairs didn’t qualify for the free in 2017 so....