2022 Olympic Qualifying Changes?

[Karen-W]

I've skimmed and I'm overwhelmed, so could someone tell me how high an American man at Nebelhorn would have to rank to get the US the 3 men at the Olympics, assuming Nathan and Jason have the necessary combined number at Worlds?

If the results from the Mens SP hold, we are looking at 4 countries trying to earn an additional spot at Nebelhorn - USA (2+1), Canada, Korea & France (1+1) - and they all have men who are very capable of earning those additional spots, so, in reality, there are probably 2 spots up for grabs at Nebelhorn.

 

[kwanfan1818]

On the other hand, four NOCs that had singles making the fS would have been under the cut-off under the old rules get their spots now, and they don't have to compete at Nebelhorn to qualify.

 

[missing]

Just to make sure I understand this.

If a U.S. Man scores in the top 6 at Nebelhorn, assuming the U.S. has qualified for 3 men via Worlds, then the U.S. would get to send 3 men to the Olympics.

If the U.S. man is lower than 6th at Nebelhorn then the U.S. only gets to send a third man if there's an opening.

 

[tony]

Just to make sure I understand this.

If a U.S. Man scores in the top 6 at Nebelhorn, assuming the U.S. has qualified for 3 men via Worlds, then the U.S. would get to send 3 men to the Olympics.

If the U.S. man is lower than 6th at Nebelhorn then the U.S. only gets to send a third man if there's an opening.

Correct. But it may be more than 6 just depending how the free skate goes. That's a more complicated talk, but it won't be any less than 6.

 

[kwanfan1818]

At least at Nebelhorn to date (2020, 2017 Olympic qualifier), there's no cut-off for the FS...

 

[missing]

Of the U. S. qualifies 3 women based on Worlds placements, can they get that third woman's slot via Nebelhorn?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Of the U. S. qualifies 3 women based on Worlds placements, can they get that third woman's slot via Nebelhorn?

Yes.

ETA: Pairs spoiler relevant to the thread:

ETA: If the last two groups of Pairs stay in the Top 16, Italy will earn two Worlds 2022 spots, one Olympic spot at Worlds (max of 10th for Della Monica/Guarise+ max of 16th for Ghilardi/Ambrosini for making the FS), and can send a team to Nebelhorn to qualify for one of the remaining three spots. I'm an idiot. Please ignore.

 

[Debbie S]

With the new rules, it will be harder for small countries (in skating terms) who didn't qualify any skaters through Worlds to qualify a spot at Nebelhorn, correct? I don't think that's a good effect. It's the Olys and I'm sure it's meant a lot to 'developing' countries to be represented there.

 

[tony]

With the new rules, it's harder for small countries (in skating terms) who didn't qualify any skaters through Worlds to qualify a spot at Nebelhorn, correct? I don't think that's a good effect. It's the Olys and I'm sure it's meant a lot to 'developing' countries to be represented there.

Quite the opposite. It's saying deliver in the SP/RD at Worlds and you may get a spot outright rather than be passed by because of what happens above you.

Almost every Olympic cycle, especially in the singles' disciplines and sometimes even pairs, the last few finishers in the final segment miss out on Olympic spots and then have to go to Nebelhorn.

Now, any country that ADDS an additional spot based on their Worlds placements has to make that spot official with a qualifying placement at Nebelhorn. The country will not get an automatic spot for a skater that may be way below standard level because of a top skater(s) doing all the work.

 

[VGThuy]

So the new rules help those smaller countries at Worlds, but if they were the ones who failed to qualify for the LP, then there are less spots to get at Nebelhorn since you're now competing with other countries who are hoping to earn their extra spot that they gained at Worlds. Either way, even with the old rules, they would be fighting against skaters "above" them since had to fight there would have been a slew of skaters who did make the LP at Worlds but lost out on Olympic spots under to the old rules. If I was a smaller country, I rather earn a spot at Worlds than have to go through Nebelhorn.

 

[kwanfan1818]

then there are less spots to get at Nebelhorn since you're now competing with other countries who are hoping to earn their extra spot that they gained at Worlds.

That's only if the countries who are hoping to earn their extra spot have skaters good enough to qualify at Nebelhorn. Which is not always the case.

 

[screech]

I'm not sure if this is a silly question, as I've basically just skimmed this thread, but say Keegan Messing places top 10 and Canada earns 2 spots for next year. Does Keegan have to be one of those 2 people competing at the Olympics? Or, if for example, Skate Canada decides they want to send Nam and Roman, is that permitted?
What if, for example, Nam qualified that 2nd spot at Nebelhorn. If he becomes sick or injured and can't compete at the Olympics, can a replacement still be sent, even though the spot is, in theory, Nam's? Or if he were to come 8th at Canadians and SC wants to send someone who placed higher.

 

[shuilee]

Did we misunderstand the new rules? Now I'm hearing from NBC broadcast and also Jackie Wong that the HUN and CZE teams are NOT qualified to the Olympics.

He's interpreting the rules that CHN has been allocated 3 spots and JPN has 2 spots. CHN and JPN will have to confirm their extra slot at Nebelhorn. But if they fail to confirm, would those spots go to 4th and 5th place team at Nebelhorn? Or would it go to HUN and CZE?

Argh this is so frustrating. I hope ISU sends clarification.

 

[tony]

I'm not sure if this is a silly question, as I've basically just skimmed this thread, but say Keegan Messing places top 10 and Canada earns 2 spots for next year. Does Keegan have to be one of those 2 people competing at the Olympics? Or, if for example, Skate Canada decides they want to send Nam and Roman, is that permitted?
What if, for example, Nam qualified that 2nd spot at Nebelhorn. If he becomes sick or injured and can't compete at the Olympics, can a replacement still be sent, even though the spot is, in theory, Nam's? Or if he were to come 8th at Canadians and SC wants to send someone who placed higher.

No, Keegan does not. Whoever has the minimum TES can go.

But Keegan can not be the one to qualify the additional spot at Nebelhorn.

 

[Debbie S]

if they were the ones who failed to qualify for the LP, then there are less spots to get at Nebelhorn since you're now competing with other countries who are hoping to earn their extra spot that they gained at Worlds.

That's what I was thinking of, specifically with something like the U.S. men's situation (assuming SP placements hold) where there will be strong skater competing for an extra spot against those who don't have spots.

OK, I just saw Jackie Wong's post about the pairs spots and it looks like the 'extra' spots are awarded and counted within the 16 and need to be "confirmed" at Nebelhorn. So the same number of skaters qualify though Worlds that would have before and still 3 Nebelhorn spots, unless a country gives up a spot. I guess the idea is that if a country doesn't have extra skaters to earn the spot, they would give the spot up, but didn't that always happen? This new rule just seems silly to me.

 

[tony]

That's what I was thinking of, specifically with something like the U.S. men's situation (assuming SP placements hold) where there will be strong skater competing for an extra spot against those who don't have spots.

OK, I just saw Jackie Wong's post about the pairs spots and it looks like the 'extra' spots are awarded and counted within the 16 and need to be "confirmed" at Nebelhorn. So the same number of skaters qualify though Worlds that would have before and still 3 Nebelhorn spots, unless a country gives up a spot. I guess the idea is that if a country doesn't have extra skaters to earn the spot, they would give the spot up, but didn't that always happen? This new rule just seems silly to me.

From the ISU wording, I don’t think that’s the case. It says for the 16 spots allocated specifically from Worlds it has to come from skaters who actually made the LP. If not, the skaters need to try for the 3 remaining spots at Nebelhorn.

But who knows now.

 

[kwanfan1818]

That is the worst of both Worlds, if Wong is right. I don't think that's what the announcement document says.

ETA: The document says emphasis mine:

NOC's, who through their ISU Members Nations, have earned the necessary points accord to [rule info] will have the right for two (2) or (3) entries, only if, in addition, they had two (2) or respectively three (3) Skaters/Pairs/Couples qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance in the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2020 [rule info].

Then it goes on to describe how if the "in addition" requirement hasn't been met, they can send one participant to the qualifier (Nebelhorn) try to earn one additional spot.

 

[tony]

He’s saying he has confirmation from federations. I really don’t think so, it’s not what is written.

 

[Karen-W]

He’s saying he has confirmation from federations. I really don’t think so, it’s not what is written.

But that might be what the federations have interpreted - and those fed officials are the ones who were at the ISU Congress when the changes were passed, so wouldn't they be more familiar with what the actual intent of the legislation was?

The way the communication is worded, I agree with your interpretation, Tony, and it will be interesting to see if the HUN & CZE feds/NOCs take this to CAS, because I might be inclined if I were them.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The ISU is not only known to publish unclear documentation, they've also contradicted themselves, so who knows what is being spread. And even though this is official documentation for the IOC that every NOC has to publish about qualifying for the Olympics, it's not like Bach has been terribly strict with the ISU when they do so.

 

[Karen-W]

The ISU is not only known to publish unclear documentation, they've also contradicted themselves, so who knows what is being spread. And even though this is official documentation for the IOC that every NOC has to publish about qualifying for the Olympics, it's not like Bach has been terribly strict with the ISU when they do so.

It's not Bach they need to worry about, though. It would be CAS, because I could see the HUN and CZE feds taking this to CAS, especially if qualifying a team now was the difference between qualifying for the team event or not...

 

[text_skate]

Pairs:
As far as I understood the whole thing, 1 to 13th earned spots for Olys, which leaves 6 spots for Nebelhorn up for graps resp. to be earned

RUS 3 spots, CHN 2 (+1 to be earned)
USA+CAN 2 spots
ITA+JAP 1 (+ 1 spot to be earned) EDIT: ITA 2 spots
AUT+GER 1 spot

So far I can only see CHN, who has the potential to earn that 3rd spot. JAP has no other pair contenter, and I'd say CZE and HUN are stronger than ITA2

 

[thvu]

He’s saying he has confirmation from federations. I really don’t think so, it’s not what is written.

I hope Wong is reporting the contradiction between what he’s being told and what’s actually in the official documents.
If he’s not, it’s bad or sycophantic reporting.

 

[tony]

I hope Wong is reporting the contradiction between what he’s being told and what’s actually in the official documents.
If he’s not, it’s bad or sycophantic reporting.

I wouldn't be shocked if he actually is hearing that, but it's very clearly not what the document says and it's going to cause problems.

 

[Karen-W]

Pairs:
As far as I understood the whole thing, 1 to 13th earned spots for Olys, which leaves 6 spots for Nebelhorn up for graps resp. to be earned

RUS 3 spots, CHN 2 (+1 to be earned)
USA+CAN 2 spots
ITA+JAP 1 (+ 1 spot to be earned)
AUT+GER 1 spot

So far I can only see CHN, who has the potential to earn that 3rd spot. JAP has no other pair contenter, and I'd say CZE and HUN are stronger than ITA2

The problem is that isn't how the qualifying document reads.

Italy doesn't need to qualify at Nebelhorn because they had 2 pairs teams at Worlds, just like the USA and CAN.

China and Japan do need to qualify their 3rd & 2nd teams respectively since they only had 2/1 teams at Worlds.

I'd honestly be going to CAS for the spots if I were the HUN and CZE feds/NOCs.

 

[SLIVER]

I thought I was being thick as s**t, I am glad that everyone else is confused. It has quietened my insecurities

 

[skatingguy]

Pairs:
As far as I understood the whole thing, 1 to 13th earned spots for Olys, which leaves 6 spots for Nebelhorn up for graps resp. to be earned

RUS 3 spots, CHN 2 (+1 to be earned)
USA+CAN 2 spots
ITA+JAP 1 (+ 1 spot to be earned)
AUT+GER 1 spot

So far I can only see CHN, who has the potential to earn that 3rd spot. JAP has no other pair contenter, and I'd say CZE and HUN are stronger than ITA2

Italy should have 2 spots based on the World results, and will not have Nebelhorn entry because the 2nd team made the free skate.

 

[text_skate]

Italy doesn't need to qualify at Nebelhorn because they had 2 pairs teams at Worlds, just like the USA and CAN.

Argh, I forgot about teams qualifying for FS

 

[skatingguy]

Argh, I forgot about teams qualifying for FS

In addition, there are 16 spots to be earned at Worlds so if my math is correct Hungary & the Czech Republic have also earned an Olympic berth.

 

[Seerek]

I don't think Italy needs to re-qualify a second pair at Nebelhorn because Ghilardi/Ambrosini qualified for the free skate?

Pairs:
As far as I understood the whole thing, 1 to 13th earned spots for Olys, which leaves 6 spots for Nebelhorn up for graps resp. to be earned

RUS 3 spots, CHN 2 (+1 to be earned)
USA+CAN 2 spots
ITA+JAP 1 (+ 1 spot to be earned)
AUT+GER 1 spot

So far I can only see CHN, who has the potential to earn that 3rd spot. JAP has no other pair contenter, and I'd say CZE and HUN are stronger than ITA2