U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

[Bellanca]

Karen earned her spot fair and square and I truly believe Mirai would be appalled at people suggesting that Karen withdraw this early in the game.

I agree.

Also, whatever happened to common courtesy, giving someone the benefit of the doubt, resisting the temptation to rush to judgment? I see the ongoing 4CC (from the majority) is to suggest that Karen is making up stories, making excuses for her poor performance at 4CC and that the Karen Chen pile-on continues. Yes, I am keenly aware of Karen's international (competitive) track record, but we do not know that she is making up stories or making excuses to save face, we do not have confirmation of this being the case, at all. Maybe Karen is continuing to struggle (on and off) with boot issues, again. We just do not know, but to say or hint that she is simply being disingenuous?...

How many of us have dealt w/ a problem, thinking it has been solved, only to see it resurface again? It happens. Cut the girl some slack.

 

[montrealsurfa]

Hopefully Karen WDs and Nagasu gets to skate. Wagner and Nagasu are by far the best U.S hope for 3 spots. Chen didnt even deserve her U.S title, at best she might have barely deserved silver over Bell. New USFSA pet, replacing the overrated Gold, the previous one.

 

[skatingguy]

Hopefully Karen WDs and Nagasu gets to skate. Wagner and Nagasu are by far the best U.S hope for 3 spots. Chen didnt even deserve her U.S title, at best she might have barely deserved silver over Bell. New USFSA pet, replacing the overrated Gold, the previous one.

She skated better than the other skaters at the US Nationals and so she won.

 

[vesperholly]

I do wonder whether Japanese fans are having nearly as much handwringing as US fans over their ladies. One of my favorite skaters, Wakaba Higuchi, just had a dismal 4CC and I wonder if anyone is calling her removal from the Worlds team.

Of course not, because the situation isn't really comparable. Mihara won 4CCs, both she and Higuchi placed 3 and 4 in their GPs, and Miyahara can usually be counted on for very good placements. Japan can afford one skater doing poorly at Worlds. Maybe if Hongo, who isn't on the World team, had medaled and Mihara and Higuchi did poorly at 4CC and had much spottier international results, then there would be outcry.

 

[montrealsurfa]

She skated better than the other skaters at the US Nationals and so she won.

She definitely did not skate better than Wagner by a long shot. Unless doing easier jumps, landing them less cleanly, and having much poorer artistry is skating better. You would think with all Wagner has done for U.S skating she would receive a boost but instead she gets deflation every year vs others. Even a year after year flop who international judges dont like such as Nagasu. It is ridiculous.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Any decision at this stage would be tough.

In 2014, Mirai skated better than Wagner at US Nationals, only to be bumped for a skater with a better international track record. It would be so ironic if Karen were replaced with Mirai for the same reason.

Making these choices for the sake of 'the team' is so difficult.

I only have to remember how Liam Firus dutifully stepped down last year so that Nam Nguyen could potentially earn Canada three spots for 2017 in Boston (along with Patrick Chan, whom Skate Canada assumed would make the podium after a great win at Four Continents).

Nam had finished 5th at the 2015 World Championships, but 4th at the 2016 Canadian Championships. In Boston, he didn't even make the free - skating final after a nightmare short program. Chan skated badly (for him) and finished 5th.

There is no way of predicting the outcome in advance, no matter who goes.

I only hope the ladies' event in Helsinki isn't a replay of 1993 in Prague, when Tonia Kwaitkowski, Lisa Ervin and Nancy Kerrigan let nerves get the better of them.

 

[Jun Y]

Of course not, because the situation isn't really comparable. Mihara won 4CCs, both she and Higuchi placed 3 and 4 in their GPs, and Miyahara can usually be counted on for very good placements. Japan can afford one skater doing poorly at Worlds. Maybe if Hongo, who isn't on the World team, had medaled and Mihara and Higuchi did poorly at 4CC and had much spottier international results, then there would be outcry.

Miyahara is injured with unknown status. Even without injury she could end up 5th or 6th, depending on how strict the callers are.

I don't want to derail the thread, but these days I feel more inclined to hang out with Japanese skating fans because they seem more chill.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Karen said on NBC that she has very flat feet. I guess meaning she has a low arch? It may be particularly difficult for her to find a good-fitting boot.

OK, I call BS. This is not rocket science. I assume she has custom boots. I also assume that they are made for HER feet (flat or otherwise). Perhaps she needs to find a different sport that has equipment that works for her.

 

[Vagabond]

I never hear excuses from the Japanese or Russian girls.

How could you have missed this?

http://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/808241/

(My rough translation. If someone wants to correct me or do a separate translation, please do.)

"Julia Lipnitskaya: I Do Not Know How to Do Double Jumps" (November 3, 2012)

Your coach Eteri Tutberidze said before the competition that at the beginning of the season you had boot problems. What did she mean?

- My boots this season were made custom-made. I asked the bootmakers to use a material that would bend, but not break. New boots tend to be too tough. I could not wear them for very long, without their starting to hurt. Also, it has been my habit since chlldhood to lace my boots very tightly; otherwise, I cannot skate at all. In the end, I managed with the boots, but apparently in the process of intensive use, I hurt something in one foot.

I also got very swollen feet on airplanes. The first time I noticed it was going to the junior competition in Poland. The flight was just an hour and a half, and I didn't notice anything at the time, but when I was on the rink, I suddenly noticed something was wrong, and my foot didn't fit in the boot! ... And at the very end of the season, I flew to Thaland, and in just a few hours, my feet were so swollen that I was afraid to look! Roughly the same thing happened just now, when we arrived in Shanghai.

 

[pkmnfan]

Miyahara is injured with unknown status. Even without injury she could end up 5th or 6th, depending on how strict the callers are.

I don't want to derail the thread, but these days I feel more inclined to hang out with Japanese skating fans because they seem more chill.

That's true, but there is really no one better. Rika did worse at 4CC and Mao hasn't been skating well either. Most of the others who did decently at nationals are juniors.

I know Mirai is also inconsistent but she does decently most of the time when she's assigned to competitions after nationals (although we don't have a ton of data). Even though she only got 10th last year, her score was similar to Polina's from 2014 and 2015, so she could place higher if others mess up. I'm not saying that we should definitely send Mirai instead of Karen, but that's why the situation is different.

 

[skatingguy]

She definitely did not skate better than Wagner by a long shot. Unless doing easier jumps, landing them less cleanly, and having much poorer artistry is skating better. You would think with all Wagner has done for U.S skating she would receive a boost but instead she gets deflation every year vs others. Even a year after year flop who international judges dont like such as Nagasu. It is ridiculous.

Technically both have similar programs - 7 triples - Wagner under-rotated the 3T in her first combination and Chen doubled her 3S in her combination. Wagner repeats the 3F and Chen the 3Lz. The judges gave Chen the edge technically with the GOE and Wagner the edge with the PCS with Chen winning the free skate by 0.56. If Wagner had not had the mistake on the 2A in the short program she would have won.

 

[becca]

I don't think Karen is lying. I just think she chose to skate. Same goes for Yulia. If you are in such bad shape that you think your performance will be severely compromised you should withdraw.

It was kind of like when Rachael Flatt's mom did the whole Rachael is injured thing at Worlds one year. Poor Rachael. And people then got mad that she was there.

Now it is really no big deal!

But I think asking oneself am I in good enough shape where I am willing to live with the consequences of a bad skate is a good gut check question when it comes to whether to skate or not.

If you are going into a competition with well it's okay if I skate poorly because I am injured have boot problems I am not sure that attitude will lead to good results.

Its a hard thing and she is really young!!! But when you think of some of the great champions you never hear those kind of excuses.

 

[Yazmeen]

I'm not on the "dump one of the others and send Mirai to Worlds" train b/c, when it mattered, Mirai didn't step up. She had a clear shot at the team this year and she failed to deliver. I'm not being mean, I'm just being honest. She was 2nd after the SP at nationals. If she'd skated the way she skated at 4CC in the FS she'd have come in 3rd or better. She blew her chance. Having said that, she seems to be slightly more reliable than the two we're sending ahead of her and if there were a way to replace someone on the team with her, I'd be all for it. However, even if that were to happen, by no means is Mirai a guarantee either. She'd need to crack 200+ at least to place in the range we'd need and she's never done that.

THIS. I frankly prefer Mirai when she's on over ALL the other current leaders, but it's been 7 years of ups and downs with Mirai and no real consistency. I completely agree here - she had a major shot at the World team this year, and once again, she blew it. And she keeps blowing it, again and again and again. I would only be in agreement with sending her if either Karen or Mariah has to relinquish their spot for a valid reason. Pretty much every year since 2010, the biggest thing that gets in the way of Mirai's success is Mirai herself. Sad, but true.

 

[montrealsurfa]

Technically both have similar programs - 7 triples - Wagner under-rotated the 3T in her first combination and Chen doubled her 3S in her combination. Wagner repeats the 3F and Chen the 3Lz. The judges gave Chen the edge technically with the GOE and Wagner the edge with the PCS with Chen winning the free skate by 0.56. If Wagner had not had the mistake on the 2A in the short program she would have won.

Chen did not deserve the much higher GOE she got which gave her a significant technical edge despite a couple points lower base value in the LP and a slightly bigger mistake. And PCS would never be so close anywhere else. And that is not even getting into that her 3/3s should be downgraded, and would be anywhere else. If both competed the programs in front of international judges Wagner comes out ahead by a good 15 points and you know it. Thus there is nothing to discuss, Chen did not deserve her U.S title, she barely deserved to beat Bell.

I would be happy to see her replaced by Nagasu who both has higher international scoring potential (despite neither high) and is less inconsistent (despite also being inconsistent). U.S best chance for 3 spots by far is Wagner and Nagasu, not overrated Chen and unknown Bell.

 

[VGThuy]

I find that I can tolerate multiple personalities and pseuds better in the off-season.

 

[montrealsurfa]

THIS. I frankly prefer Mirai when she's on over ALL the other current leaders, but it's been 7 years of ups and downs with Mirai and no real consistency. I completely agree here - she had a major shot at the World team this year, and once again, she blew it. And she keeps blowing it, again and again and again. I would only be in agreement with sending her if either Karen or Mariah has to relinquish their spot for a valid reason. Pretty much every year since 2010, the biggest thing that gets in the way of Mirai's success is Mirai herself. Sad, but true.

I agree on Mirai, but Chen is just as sparatic. She delivered once, and even there got rewarded beyond what she earned (the title). Mirai seems to be a better competitor internationally and is a better skater too. U.S best shot at 3 spots is Wagner and Nagasu by far. They have already hindered themselves in that quest with Chen's undeserving U.S title dropping Wagner's status internationally to the point a medal is harder, giving Nagasu a tougher task, but they can still do it.

 

[bwayrose7]

I agree on Mirai, but Chen is just as sparatic. She delivered once, and even there got rewarded beyond what she earned (the title). Mirai seems to be a better competitor internationally and is a better skater too. U.S best shot at 3 spots is Wagner and Nagasu by far. They have already hindered themselves in that quest with Chen's undeserving U.S title dropping Wagner's status internationally to the point a medal is harder, giving Nagasu a tougher task, but they can still do it.

I'm not going to get into the rest of the debate, but I do want to point out that Wagner did not have the US title last year, either, and she still won the silver at Worlds. I think Ashley is still widely perceived as US #1, overall. Sure, the momentum of a title would have been nice, but it didn't hold her back last year, so I doubt it will this year.

 

[Spun Silver]

OK, I call BS. This is not rocket science. I assume she has custom boots. I also assume that they are made for HER feet (flat or otherwise). Perhaps she needs to find a different sport that has equipment that works for her.

Tiger Mom Speaks!

 

[Sylvia]

Re-posting these 2 replies in this more relevant thread (in response to this photo tweeted yesterday:
https://twitter.com/Grant_Hochstein/status/834159210841600000 ):

I guess next year will be the final season for both Grant and Caroline. A little sad to see them go. But I guess they are no longer very young for the sport, and they are probably keen to finally get married and enjoy the next phase of their lives.

I have my doubts about whether Caroline will be gone so soon. She's only just started her comeback after such a horrific injury; realistically, I bet she knows that she's a long shot for the Olympic team next year, so she must be getting back into this because she loves it. No reason why she can't continue training and competing after getting married; having kiddies can always be put off for later as she's still very young.

Caroline Zhang is competing at Challenge Cup in The Hague this week -- her first international since October 2013! Good luck to her and to 2017 U.S. junior champ Kaitlyn Nguyen (she will be ISU Junior age-eligible in 2017-18 as she turned 13 last November), Emmy Ma (J4) and Hanna Harrell (N6). Nguyen is competing in Adv. Novice (her second international since she won Golden Bear in Croatia) with Harrell who is making her international debut along with Ma, in The Hague.

 

[peibeck]

Judge Judy, erm, I mean montrealsufa, your "logic" cracks me up.

Obviously you missed Mirai getting gifted in her Nationals SP with her 3f/3t getting called clean when the toe was clearly well short of rotation. And then she performed dismally and with no emotion in the free. Sadly, Gracie with her bevy of doubles was more entertaining. Nagasu is pleasant, but has far easier transitions than all of the other "top" US ladies, and skates at a very average speed.

Chen, when she is on, has amazing jumps: height, great ice coverage, tight rotation. Honestly they rival the best of the big Russian jumpers like Pogorilaya. Chen's skating is also fast, with decent edges and her spins far superior to those of Wagner.

It doesn't matter if you like it or not, Karen Chen is (and honestly deserved) her US Championship in Kansas City. But neither she nor Nagasu are consistent, and those are the breaks. I don't get why you seem to take such pleasure in running down skaters who don't meet your standards and then try and prop up others who have the same issues. (Or why you create a bazillion fake profiles to make all your bashing posts.)

 

[Skateparent]

Re Sylvia's post #79

Oh. Any idea why they are sending N6 but not N3 to N5 for Adv Novice? Understand N1 (Huang) and N2(Cui) got to compete Oberstdorf. Also for Junior, why did they leave out Paganini (J5)? Are they only allowed to send one Junior skater?

 

[vesperholly]

Marai

Mirai.

 

[VGThuy]

OK, I call BS. This is not rocket science. I assume she has custom boots. I also assume that they are made for HER feet (flat or otherwise). Perhaps she needs to find a different sport that has equipment that works for her.

Don't you remember that whole thread explaining boot and equipment issues?

 

[aftershocks]

U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

Vagabond oh @Vagabond!!! You are something else again and again. I love it!!! Thanks for the laughter during these rough and perilous times.

Let's pray for some happy surprises to jump out of that Helsinki handbasket!

Nothing remotely deplorable, please please dearest Skating Gods.

Just in case, maybe we should all light some candles to add to the ones some of us may already be lighting daily for our country (no matter where we live btw).

 

[becca]

I don't think it's fair to change the rules of the game. Nagasu is hardly consistent and had nothing to lose. Who says she skates so well if a Worlds berth is on the line?

I absolutely do think they need to take Four Continents in account but they should be upfront about it day one.

To be honest there is more to life than 3 spots let's say worst happens and only 2 spots. Karen and Mariah will still have gotten valuable experience. Ashley was not top 10 her first worlds I recall and look at Tukt/Adelina four years ago there is still benefits to letting people get experience they earn.

 

[Yazmeen]

Don't you remember that whole thread explaining boot and equipment issues?

Of course she does; she's the one that suggested that every skater have at least 5 or more pairs in rotation, just in case...

 

[Sylvia]

Any idea why they are sending N6 but not N3 to N5 for Adv Novice? Understand N1 (Huang) and N2(Cui) got to compete Oberstdorf. Also for Junior, why did they leave out Paganini (J5)?

I can only assume that Harrell fulfilled USFS' criteria similar to the other 3 novices sent to Golden Bear in October 2016 (Kaitlyn Nguyen, Pooja Kalyan and Audrey Shin) -- all 4 are ISU Junior age-eligible next season. Maybe because she has landed both 3Lz and 3F cleanly in the same program at and/or before Nationals? Just my guess.

Paganini already competed in a JGP in August 2016 and Kalyan (N3) made her international debut at Golden Bear. Alysa Liu (N4) only turned 11 last August. Alyssa Rich (N5), who turns 14 in July, attempted 3Lz for the first time at Nationals, landing it successfully in both her SP & FS, and began including 3F in her FS this season (landed it cleanly in her SW Regionals free skate). She also is one to watch.

ETA:

Are they only allowed to send one Junior skater?

I don't think so but since Junior champ Kaitlyn Nguyen is too young for ISU Junior comps this year, she has to compete internationally in Adv. Novice again.

 

[pinky166]

Hopefully if Karen's boot problems are that serious and are causing her injury that is affecting her performance in practice, she will withdraw from Worlds. I'm pretty confident that Jason will do that if he does not feel recovered enough to perform well at Worlds.

Anyways, only 2 skaters have to deliver at Worlds to keep the 3 spots. If the 3rd one has an off night and the other 2 deliver and maintain 3 spots, Mirai is in a great position to make the Olympic team and whoever didn't do well at Worlds isn't.

I'm hoping Karen and Mariah see keeping the 3rd spot as a way to kind of protect a spot on the Olympic team for themselves, get motivated by that and then deliver. I really do think that skating to their potential at least one of them should be able to back up Ashley and keep the 3rd spot.

I think a lot will depend on how well Ashley can do. If she skates like she usually does I see her finishing somewhere around 3-6.

 

[B.Cooper]

I don't think it's fair to change the rules of the game. Nagasu is hardly consistent and had nothing to lose. Who says she skates so well if a Worlds berth is on the line?

I absolutely do think they need to take Four Continents in account but they should be upfront about it day one.

To be honest there is more to life than 3 spots let's say worst happens and only 2 spots. Karen and Mariah will still have gotten valuable experience. Ashley was not top 10 her first worlds I recall and look at Tukt/Adelina four years ago there is still benefits to letting people get experience they earn.

It is interesting how everyone is on the Nagasu bandwagon. It isn't like she was against the best at 4CC. It was a rather weak field. And for goodness sakes, Mirai's repeated triples were a 3T and a 3Lp. Not the level of difficulty of the Russians. Not sure if she will ever have the more difficult jumps back in her free skate (two 3-F and two 3Lz). And, in spite of standing up, skating clean, and yes, with a great deal of determination...it wasn't a memorable performance other than the fact she got through all her jumps. She has been incredibly inconsistent her entire career.

Karen skated outstandingly at US Nationals. I would suspect that she is feeling the weight of that success, much like Mirai did, back in 2008.

 

[Coco]

Asking someone to peak at Nationals, 4ccs and Worlds is a tall order. Because it is such a tall order, I think USFSA may want to rethink sending the A team to 4CC, especially if there is significant travel time.

For all our (US ladies fans') disappointments, it has been a really long time since a US Lady dramatically underperformed at Worlds. I know it is a bit dicey with this scoring system since even hitting slightly below your average could put you well down the standings, placement wise. 2010 Worlds are a great example of this. Aside from Czisny in 2012, and we now know her performance was impacted by injury, I think you have to go back to Jenny Kirk in 2004/2005 to find a US lady's skate who skated well under her average at Worlds. The 2007 and 2008 teams were just young and did about as well as could be expected.

I'm sure someone will tell me the problem is that Mariah's and Karen's average is too low, and that's the problem. But I will be optimistic!!