The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

[VGThuy]

Lilah Fear was the only skater under 30 on the GPF podium... and everyone there met the PSOTY age requirement

I wasn’t sure what to call them, but I was talking about the class next to the GPF finalists that are expected to to contend for titles next quad. But then maybe some of them are in their 30s too, like Charlene and Marco, .

 

[Wyliefan]

They never learn. Even now we old-timers remember sour grapes from Slutskaya, B/K, Baldwin, Bonaly and many many Russians and their allies. And speaking for myself I will always remember Kaori’s graciousness in Boston, for example. It matters.

Surya at least has the last laugh. The standard line on social media goes something like "She did a backflip at the Olympics and they banned it just to be mean to her!"

 

[Karen-W]

I’m not as knowledgeable as most here, but I’m okay with Piper calling out whatever she wants to callout. It’s her career, it’s almost over and she clearly just doesn’t care to be polite anymore. She can say what she wants to say, justified or not. I might not agree, but it’s her right to say what she wants. I also get the vibe that she might have come to terms that it’s not going to change for her, so she’s fighting the system so to speak. I don’t think it’s going help her placement, that’s for sure.

I also am of the belief that these skaters probably know more about the internal politics than most of us. I haven’t been the biggest fan of either of their programs, especially this season, but seeing both Piper/Paul and Charlene/Marco drop throughout the quad in favor of sometimes less skilled IAM teams has been a head scratcher.

Also Cizeron complaining about his scores again when they received +3-4 GOE on an element they half completed after a fall was another head scratcher.

Well, that's not really accurate.

GilPoir have lost to FearGib twice now - last year's GPF where they had a major error in the RD that left them too far back to make up the ground with FearGib, though they did beat them in the FD; and now this past weekend. They've beat ChoBat 3 times during the last 5 seasons, going back to 2021 Worlds, while ChoBat have beat them 8 times. And prior to 2021 Worlds, I'm not sure they ever beat ChoBat at a major competition (Worlds, 4CCs, GPF, Olympics). I'm hard-pressed to see how GilPoir have been dropping this entire quad (especially seeing as they moved ahead of GuigFab in 2023-24 and have remained ahead of them since), and certainly not to "less skilled IAM teams".

GuigFab have, indeed, lost ground, but they very much did that to themselves and they did it last season when they came out with two anemic programs and it finally caught up with them at Worlds. They still beat FearGib (in both phases of competition) at the GPF and Euros last season. Then they showed up at GPdF this year with another set of anemic programs. Sure enough, the judges walked through the door they gave them, especially since FearGib do have better programs & Marco's skating skills are now painfully, obviously deteriorated compared to where they were at the start of this Olympic cycle. And have GuigFab ever beat ChoBat at a major competition?

There's an awful lot of entitlement, I think, on the part of both GilPoir and GuigFab, in believing they were going to stay at the top of the ice dance hierarchy through this entire Olympic cycle without putting in the work to produce good programs consistently or to take the feedback the judges are giving them with the GOEs and PCS marks to improve the programs they do have as the season progresses. And that particular Achilles heel has proven to be their downfall against some teams who DO put the work in to continuously improve their programs over the course of the season. FearGib came into this season with a really great concept for their FD and a decent RD (as decent as one can expect with this horrible 120bpm requirement). But they also have been absolute workhorses in the off-season and they've gotten out early in front of the judges each season & taken the feedback from Bolero Cup & Nebelhorn, etc, and made the necessary changes to keep improving their scores, and they're also not making major mistakes in their programs for the most part, which has put them in the position to capitalize when their opponents show up with subpar programs & make mistakes.

 

[jmtfti]

What seems to happen when it comes to ice dancers and speaking out is that it’s often done in self serving and not at all constructive ways. Plus skaters and their coaches often believe in all kinds of ridiculous conspiracy theories when it comes to judging. Some of this is the ISU’s fault for not being more transparent and frequently having poorly written rules and not always acting quickly enough when individual judges are engaging in shenanigans. And some of it seems to be part of the culture of the sport. But, for instance, is Gilles going to speak up about the fact that the LaLas were undermarked in the 2024 worlds RD? I don’t think so.

In fact, there's a new fan conspiracy theory I've seen floated about elsewhere that IAM and Skate Canada are in league, dastardly supporting LaLa and somehow ruining G/P's results by doing so. No, I don't understand how this remotely maths, either.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Surya at least has the last laugh. The standard line on social media goes something like "She did a backflip at the Olympics and they banned it just to be mean to her!"

No, no, they banned the backflip because they were racist and they wanted to punish her! So she landed it on one foot and that showed them!

 

[Karen-W]

In fact, there's a new fan conspiracy theory I've seen floated about elsewhere that IAM and Skate Canada are in league, dastardly supporting LaLa and somehow ruining G/P's results by doing so. No, I don't understand how this remotely maths, either.

I mean, wouldn't the first step in that dastardly plan been to prop LajLag up at SCI this fall, despite the major error in the RD?

 

[jmtfti]

Shhhh, we can't get logic get in the way here!

 

[Tinycities]

Well, that's not really accurate.

GilPoir have lost to FearGib twice now - last year's GPF where they had a major error in the RD that left them too far back to make up the ground with FearGib, though they did beat them in the FD; and now this past weekend. They've beat ChoBat 3 times during the last 5 seasons, going back to 2021 Worlds, while ChoBat have beat them 8 times. And prior to 2021 Worlds, I'm not sure they ever beat ChoBat at a major competition (Worlds, 4CCs, GPF, Olympics). I'm hard-pressed to see how GilPoir have been dropping this entire quad (especially seeing as they moved ahead of GuigFab in 2023-24 and have remained ahead of them since), and certainly not to "less skilled IAM teams".

GuigFab have, indeed, lost ground, but they very much did that to themselves and they did it last season when they came out with two anemic programs and it finally caught up with them at Worlds. They still beat FearGib (in both phases of competition) at the GPF and Euros last season. Then they showed up at GPdF this year with another set of anemic programs. Sure enough, the judges walked through the door they gave them, especially since FearGib do have better programs & Marco's skating skills are now painfully, obviously deteriorated compared to where they were at the start of this Olympic cycle. And have GuigFab ever beat ChoBat at a major competition?

There's an awful lot of entitlement, I think, on the part of both GilPoir and GuigFab, in believing they were going to stay at the top of the ice dance hierarchy through this entire Olympic cycle without putting in the work to produce good programs consistently or to take the feedback the judges are giving them with the GOEs and PCS marks to improve the programs they do have as the season progresses. And that particular Achilles heel has proven to be their downfall against some teams who DO put the work in to continuously improve their programs over the course of the season. FearGib came into this season with a really great concept for their FD and a decent RD (as decent as one can expect with this horrible 120bpm requirement). But they also have been absolute workhorses in the off-season and they've gotten out early in front of the judges each season & taken the feedback from Bolero Cup & Nebelhorn, etc, and made the necessary changes to keep improving their scores, and they're also not making major mistakes in their programs for the most part, which has put them in the position to capitalize when their opponents show up with subpar programs & make mistakes.

This is a whole lot of “well, actually” to mostly prove my point.

I respect Fear/Gibsons hustle, but I don’t find them to be better skaters than either the teams mentioned above and I find their programs to be more in line with exhibitions. I also wasn’t implying Chock/Bates at all in anything I said. I prefer G/Ps programs this season, as strange as they are, to F/G. This is also my personal opinion.

The slow downward spiral of G/P and G/F, which has sped up this past season, and I just personally, and clearly you do not agree, think it’s a bit strange. I'm clearly not the only one.

As said previously, I’m looking forward to next season.

 

[Karen-W]

This is a whole lot of “well, actually” to mostly prove my point.

I respect Fear/Gibsons hustle, but I don’t find them to be better skaters than either the teams mentioned above and I find their programs to be more in line with exhibitions. I also wasn’t implying Chock/Bates at all in anything I said. I prefer G/Ps programs this season, as strange as they are, to F/G. This is also my personal opinion.

The slow downward spiral of G/P and G/F, which has sped up this past season, and I just personally, and clearly you do not agree, think it’s a bit strange. I'm clearly not the only one.

As said previously, I’m looking forward to next season.

But, you're arguing that GuigFab are STILL the superior team to FearGib. I reject that argument. Marco's skating skills were showing deterioration last season and it's only gotten more obvious this season. What they, as a team, had in abundance over FearGib (Lilah mostly) was the skating skills. They didn't have better lifts, which are not something new to ice dancing in the last 8 years the way the choreo elements are. A lot of us around here have been saying, since at least late 2023/early 2024, that FearGib were rapidly closing the gap with GuigFab.

As far as the GilPoir & FearGib situation... I think the two major mistakes they've made on the GP this season (the FD lift issue at SCI, the RD twizzles error at Finlandia) have made them vulnerable and invited judges to consider them on the rung below ChoBat & FBCiz, which puts them on the same level as FearGib right now.

As far as personal preference goes... It was pretty clear in real time which FD the audience in Japan preferred. And the ISU has made it clear, they want audience-friendly programs, especially from the ice dancers. That's why we have so many choreo element options now. There seems to be a real disconnect, IMO, between what the diehard fans value and what the audiences are responding to during competitions. I don't know how that gap is bridged.

 

[puglover]

So we, as fans, are allowed to have our favourites, prefer one style over another, dislike a move or costume, be biased to teams from our country or who train with coaches we admire, and be unwilling to support or cheer for skaters we believe have acted inappropriately. We may be justified in not supporting a team because we don't like the people they support or believe we know them and dislike them although we don't even know them.

But this is a sport! We hope for judges who possess that rare quality of being able to rise above the fray, personal connections, old biases, audience preference and know the rules and judge what they see. Judges who do it for the love of the sport and want it to have a positive future. A local judge that I know just hung up her judging badge so to speak, destroyed hours and hours of instructions and paper work, and called it quits. She drove all over our province (known for cold weather) judging test days and small local competitions for decades because of her love for the sport and love for the skaters she judged. In such a subjective sport, the judging needs to be more transparent for starters.

 

[Vagabond]

So we, as fans, are allowed to have our favourites, prefer one style over another, dislike a move or costume, be biased to teams from our country or who train with coaches we admire, and be unwilling to support or cheer for skaters we believe have acted inappropriately. We may be justified in not supporting a team because we don't like the people they support or believe we know them and dislike them although we don't even know them.

But this is a sport! We hope for judges who possess that rare quality of being able to rise above the fray, personal connections, old biases, audience preference and know the rules and judge what they see.

It's not just the judges. Athletes need to be good sportsmen and, for starters, not post derogatory remarks about coaches on social media (Gilles) or walk off in a huffmwhen a subsequent competitor achieves a better result (Guignard).