The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

[marbri]

Shae-Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz spoke up a lot about bloc-judging, and the media lapped it up. They were at least partly vindicated when Yuri Balkov's skullduggery was exposed, and they did go on to win a World Championship. I have no idea what any of their coaches had to say, but I do wonder what thought of the whole thing.

She told them that they need to be twice as good as anyone else so that the judges couldn't deny them.

 

[Allskate]

What I don’t understand is why they’re torpedoing their Olympic chances when they only lost by a tiny margin. The whining makes it sound like they’re giving up instead of working hard, making necessary changes, and giving it their all at the Olympics. They still had a chance—maybe not anymore after this public PR campaign.

ITA. It's not a good look and really counterproductive. I feel the same way about Torgy's stupid whining on social media, but someone seems to have talked him into shutting up. They just need to focus on their own skating right now.

 

[Lanie]

I’m pretty disappointed that Piper is behaving online like a sore loser with poor sportsmanship. Nobody wants that in an adult. I thought so much better of her. You can be disappointed. You could be angry. Everybody is competitive. But behaving like this on social media is just torpedoing everything and it doesn’t seem like they ever take advice. I don’t disagree with the bizarre calling of levels, I don’t like the direction dance has taken, but there’s also a reason that their programs are not being scored the way they think they should be. It wasn’t some massive conspiracy to put F&G on the podium. I don’t know, it just seems really immature. Calling out the inconsistent judging is one thing, and I’m glad that they were saying this. This is another.

 

[puglover]

I do understand the meaning of the word "whining" and even "whinging" and agree that it is not attractive and rarely productive in the long term. In ice dance though, it seems to me, there have to be better ways incorporated into the sport that allow athletes to have a voice in the direction and decisions that are made that affect them so much. It seems to me they need to be encouraged to state their feelings and listened to when results are questionable long before they are out there in the pubic domain. Why, on earth, would any skater speak up when an olympic medal is on the line, if they are not expressing long held frustration that had no outlet and they have concern for the skaters coming after them and for future fans.

 

[Alilou]

Why do I feel like I have to share this every time someone asks? Yes, they whined constantly.

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See above where Shae and Natalia Dubova just are beside themselves with the scores, but it was this entire competition in general that Lifetime ate up their whining.

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“When you don’t understand the scores, your coaches don’t understand the scores, and even some judges don’t understand the scores – that means there’s a problem somewhere.”
When Cizeron says this people applaud him for speaking out, but when Shae Lynn and Victor say they don't understand it's "whining constantly". Did I get that right?

In the K&C all Shae Lynn did was look disappointed and say she didn't understand, and this is being "beside herself with the scores". Wow, exaggerating much?

In the Lifetime interview all either of them said was that they didn't understand.

Yeah, sometimes FSU revisionist history really pisses me off. If they whined constantly you gotta come up with something better than those two vids.

 

[PRlady]

They never learn. Even now we old-timers remember sour grapes from Slutskaya, B/K, Baldwin, Bonaly and many many Russians and their allies. And speaking for myself I will always remember Kaori’s graciousness in Boston, for example. It matters.

 

[tony]

“When you don’t understand the scores, your coaches don’t understand the scores, and even some judges don’t understand the scores – that means there’s a problem somewhere.”
When Cizeron says this people applaud him for speaking out, but when Shae Lynn and Victor say they don't understand it's whining constantly. Did I get that right?

In the K&C all Shae Lynn did was look disappointed and say she didn't understand, and this is being "beside herself with the scores". Wow, exaggerating much?

In the Lifetime interview all either of them said was that they didn't understand.

Yeah, sometimes FSU revisionist history really pisses me off. If they whined constantly you gotta come up with something better than those two vids.

Did you watch the whole videos provided? She goes and tells her team leaders that she was beating FP/M by "a lot" before when one team was 5th in the world and the other was a GENEROUS 3rd in the FD [and overall] after flubbing the end of their free dance. That's not ahead by a lot and that doesn't mean that the judging should follow suit every last time.

I'm using those videos because they are actually my uploads and they were easy to reference quickly.

Dubova complains a lot here:

There's No Waltzing Around Judging Controversy

Ice dancing: Canadian team and coach say Russian and French judges conspired to vote in blocs.

www.latimes.com

 

[Allskate]

I do understand the meaning of the word "whining" and even "whinging" and agree that it is not attractive and rarely productive in the long term. In ice dance though, it seems to me, there have to be better ways incorporated into the sport that allow athletes to have a voice in the direction and decisions that are made that affect them so much.

But, as someone mentioned, there is a difference between complaining about the rules and system in general and appearing to complain about a particular team, skater, or person because you're unhappy about your placement. It's a particularly bad look if it appears that you haven't been doing your best, whether it's using an old program and not perfecting it or, as in Torgy's case, bombing at Worlds, having rotation and landing problems during this season, and then publicly whining about one specific skater's scores at a competition where you didn't even compete.

It's also just not very smart. What are the chances that some of the judges are now going to look at Piper's and Paul's programs more closely to confirm that they are not that great?

 

[Spikefan]

And speaking for myself I will always remember Kaori’s graciousness in Boston, for example.

Kwan too, she could have leaned in to the fan outrage but didn’t.

 

[VGThuy]

Honestly, the ice dance camp wars (even if only being openly waged unilaterally) is the most exciting thing to happen to ice dance in the past 8 years. We have a Linichuck (Marie-France), which I guess makes Patrice Karponosov, a Bourne/Kraatz (Gilles/Poirier), a Fusar-Poli (still Babs but adding Charlene/Marco), Guillaume bringing back 2015-2022 ice dance, and even the Shibs bring back Coldplay for the thousandth time with Marina style push and pull holds when holds are barely needed now. It’s like we have a convergence of ice dance eras ready to explode. What else can we bring back?

Kwan too, she could have leaned in to the fan outrage but didn’t.

As a huge Kwan fan, even she succumbed to giving thumbs down in the kiss and cry during the 2001-2002 season. It was kind of unusual for her to be so open about it, but she wasn’t really herself that whole season. Maybe if Frank was still her coach, she would have felt more secure and not have felt so defensive.

 

[MsZem]

What else can we bring back?

CDs or OSPs!

The Glare
Headbands
Programs that require a written explanation
The Finnstep
Long hair for men
The Bercy Pigeon (I saw a pigeon at CDG yesterday!!)

 

[BittyBug]

To paraphrase Terry Gannon, if there's no drama, it isn't figure skating. But yeah, this season has been seriously .

 

[skategal]

Honestly, the ice dance camp wars (even if only being openly waged unilaterally) is the most exciting thing to happen to ice dance in the past 8 years. We have a Linichuck (Marie-France), which I guess makes Patrice Karponosov, a Bourne/Kraatz (Gilles/Poirier), a Fusar-Poli (still Babs but adding Charlene/Marco), Guillaume bringing back 2015-2022 ice dance, and even the Shibs bring back Coldplay for the thousandth time with Marina style push and pull holds when holds are barely needed now. It’s like we have a convergence of ice dance eras ready to explode. What else can we bring back?

At this point, I’m this close to wanting a return to the splatastic 2016 Olympic RD that happened the last time we had an Italian Olympics.

If I knew no skater would be injured by it, I’d be 100% up for it if only for the CHAOS factor.

 

[MsZem]

At this point, I’m this close to wanting a return to the splatastic 2016 Olympic RD that happened the last time we had an Italian Olympics.

I think you mean the 2006 OD, when the Swarovski chrystals of vanquished skaters littered the ice like Poohs after a Hanyu skate.

 

[Karen-W]

Honestly, the ice dance camp wars (even if only being openly waged unilaterally) is the most exciting thing to happen to ice dance in the past 8 years. We have a Linichuck (Marie-France), which I guess makes Patrice Karponosov, a Bourne/Kraatz (Gilles/Poirier), a Fusar-Poli (still Babs but adding Charlene/Marco), Guillaume bringing back 2015-2022 ice dance, and even the Shibs bring back Coldplay for the thousandth time with Marina style push and pull holds when holds are barely needed now. It’s like we have a convergence of ice dance eras ready to explode. What else can we bring back?

Partner swapping after affairs between training mates?

 

[VGThuy]

Partner swapping after affairs between training mates?

Oh gosh…. I don’t mind skipping that part. These skaters are all so young even though many of the challenger class are well into their early to mid 20s.

 

[Sonata]

Personally I think B&K did have a point in that era of block judging. Ice dance rankings would barely move from one segment to the next or even one competition to the next. And eventually, B&K did work hard at their basics and their lines and won a world championship.

OTOH what is the point of Piper (and her husband)’s immature online behaviour? Does she want better tech calls? Better training for judges? Or is she propagating I.AM. conspiracy theories? I see no point in targeting Marie-France, the main female coach of I.AM. Twenty five years ago, when Piper was still a young American, MFD and Patrice Lauzon’s coaches retired and they had no where to go in Canada, so they moved to France. They came back after that difficult transition and helped solve the problem by founding a skating academy. I could never have imagined they would be this successful and kudos to them for this.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Honestly, the ice dance camp wars (even if only being openly waged unilaterally) is the most exciting thing to happen to ice dance in the past 8 years. We have a Linichuck (Marie-France), which I guess makes Patrice Karponosov, a Bourne/Kraatz (Gilles/Poirier), a Fusar-Poli (still Babs but adding Charlene/Marco), Guillaume bringing back 2015-2022 ice dance, and even the Shibs bring back Coldplay for the thousandth time with Marina style push and pull holds when holds are barely needed now. It’s like we have a convergence of ice dance eras ready to explode. What else can we bring back?

Pasha and her aunt!

ETA: I'm not looking forward to the bad/inaccurate media reporting that's going to arise in advance of the Olympic dance event. Because usually the media just doesn't know enough about the sport and how it's judged to properly discuss possible issues around levels, GOEs, etc.

 

[Alilou]

Did you watch the whole videos provided? She goes and tells her team leaders that she was beating FP/M by "a lot" before when one team was 5th in the world and the other was a GENEROUS 3rd in the FD [and overall] after flubbing the end of their free dance. That's not ahead by a lot and that doesn't mean that the judging should follow suit every last time.

I'm using those videos because they are actually my uploads and they were easy to reference quickly.

Dubova complains a lot here:

There's No Waltzing Around Judging Controversy

Ice dancing: Canadian team and coach say Russian and French judges conspired to vote in blocs.

www.latimes.com

Oh yeah, I get it that Dubova complained. A lot! She was very vocal about judging. She was probably right though

 

[MsZem]

Oh gosh…. I don’t mind skipping that part. These skaters are all so young even though many of the challenger class are well into their early to mid 20s.

Lilah Fear was the only skater under 30 on the GPF podium... and everyone there met the PSOTY age requirement

 

[skategal]

I think you mean the 2006 OD, when the Swarovski chrystals of vanquished skaters littered the ice like Poohs after a Hanyu skate.

Yes 2006. Even better it’s the 20th anniversary. Time for it to come back.

 

[angi]

What I find off-putting about how G/P, and in the past G/F, act is that they both choose to put the blame on their fellow teammates and their coaches, and both teams have enough experience to know just how destructive it is, given how little control all of them have. They know that the criticism should be directed at the judges and the judging system, yet I assume they don't want to appear too confrontational with the powers that be, so they choose to target skaters and coaches, thinking it will be less likely to backfire.

Cizeron aimed his criticism towards the rules and the judges, and even the IDTC head. Not once did he name any other team or coach. Carol reposted posts calling out IAM (they are corrupt), Fear/Gibson (they are bad), and the GBR judge (wished him diarrhea, I wish I was joking). Piper called out the results, then attacked Marie France, her husband tagged IAM and blamed them for blatant cheating, and when someone suggested he should aim his criticism towards the judges, he blamed them for being a burner account of IAM. It's just beyond unprofessional, childish, and entitled. And G/F did the same (and also posted support on Piper's post).

At this point, I'll be perfectly fine with an IAM sweep of the Olympic podium, at least they internalize feedback and keep adapting the programs of their teams until they maximize their potential scoring-wise and performance-wise.

 

[marbri]

If we are going to bring up B&K whining. Let's not forget the other teams during that era when FP&M or C/S started beating them as well Downhill skiing anyone?

 

[Debbie S]

Yes 2006. Even better it’s the 20th anniversary. Time for it to come back.

All joking aside, please no. I'm going to be there in person and I do not want to see a splatfest.

 

[kirkbiggestfan]

Am I the only one getting my social media accounts bombarded by pictures of Piper, Lilah and Charlene with posture comps with Tessa and Anjelica? I’m sure the Russian bots are fueling any fire they can find. It did make ma laugh a bit. It’s going to be a long 100 days until the Olympics in this environment, especially if the skaters respond publicly.

 

[Karen-W]

Am I the only one getting my social media accounts bombarded by pictures of Piper, Lilah and Charlene with posture comps with Tessa and Anjelica? I’m sure the Russian bots are fueling any fire they can find. It did make ma laugh a bit. It’s going to be a long 100 days until the Olympics in this environment, especially if the skaters respond publicly.

Not even 100 days! We're 60 days out from the start of the Team Event. In 100 days, we'll be well into March - though I'm sure there will still be some teams griping & complaining about the Olympic results.

Who do we think shows up in Prague for Worlds, post-Olympics? Or is the answer to that contingent on who medals at the Olympics?

 

[Tinycities]

I’m not as knowledgeable as most here, but I’m okay with Piper calling out whatever she wants to callout. It’s her career, it’s almost over and she clearly just doesn’t care to be polite anymore. She can say what she wants to say, justified or not. I might not agree, but it’s her right to say what she wants. I also get the vibe that she might have come to terms that it’s not going to change for her, so she’s fighting the system so to speak. I don’t think it’s going help her placement, that’s for sure.

I also am of the belief that these skaters probably know more about the internal politics than most of us. I haven’t been the biggest fan of either of their programs, especially this season, but seeing both Piper/Paul and Charlene/Marco drop throughout the quad in favor of sometimes less skilled IAM teams has been a head scratcher.

Also Cizeron complaining about his scores again when they received +3-4 GOE on an element they half completed after a fall was another head scratcher.

 

[Vagabond]

I’m okay with Piper calling out whatever she wants to callout. It’s her career, it’s almost over and she clearly just doesn’t care to be polite anymore. She can say what she wants to say, justified or not. I might not agree, but it’s her right to say what she wants.

Of course it's her right, but she would have been wise not to exercise it. As should be apparent from the discussion of , she is giving herself a bad reputation. And even if her amateur career is over, she may want to do shows, coach, or judge, in which case her recent remarks are not going to ingratiate her with others.

 

[marbri]

Of course it's her right, but she would have been wise not to exercise it. As should be apparent from the discussion of , she is giving herself a bad reputation. And even if her amateur career is over, she may want to do shows, coach, or judge, in which case her recent remarks are not going to ingratiate her with others.

I mean Shae Lynn seems to have a pretty good gig going these days and the only reason they didn't do a lot of shows was because Viktor wasn't into it, at all.

I don't think their post competitive career will be harmed at all. Only the rest of their international competitions this year, I suspect. Especially if they don't try to make some improvements.

When you look at some of the numbers ( as I just did ) one can understand why the GPF has sent her a bit off the deep end.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

What seems to happen when it comes to ice dancers and speaking out is that it’s often done in self serving and not at all constructive ways. Plus skaters and their coaches often believe in all kinds of ridiculous conspiracy theories when it comes to judging. Some of this is the ISU’s fault for not being more transparent and frequently having poorly written rules and not always acting quickly enough when individual judges are engaging in shenanigans. And some of it seems to be part of the culture of the sport. But, for instance, is Gilles going to speak up about the fact that the LaLas were undermarked in the 2024 worlds RD? I don’t think so.