U.S. Women [#4]: How Dare You

[Jammers]

Not good when you are finishing behind those powerhouse ladies programs from Switzerland, Georgia and Latvia.

 

[euterpe]

I'm hoping really hard that we won't see Amano on the Ladies tech panel at Worlds. But since Worlds is in Japan, my hopes may be dashed.

I have to say it was really disheartening to see the sheer volume of UR and edge calls at JW. It seems Shin delights in trashing the skaters' efforts.

 

[thvu]

I have to say it was really disheartening to see the sheer volume of UR and edge calls at JW. It seems Shin delights in trashing the skaters' efforts.

I see it as Shin is the most exacting and ethical caller. I'd love for Shin to call every single major singles event. The calling at Jr. Worlds was much better than the calling at 4CCs.

 

[tony]

I'm hoping really hard that we won't see Amano on the Ladies tech panel at Worlds. But since Worlds is in Japan, my hopes may be dashed.

I have to say it was really disheartening to see the sheer volume of UR and edge calls at JW. It seems Shin delights in trashing the skaters' efforts.

Why though? Why should skaters get a free pass in doing incorrect jumps because of a nice panel and then the next event, their score goes down because the panel actually does the job they signed up for? Or even worse, when a panel picks and chooses who they want to come down on while turning the other way for other skaters?

I see it as Shin is the most exacting and ethical caller. I'd love for Shin to call every single major singles event. The calling at Jr. Worlds was much better than the calling at 4CCs.

Totally agree.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I see it as Shin is the most exacting and ethical caller. I'd love for Shin to call every single major singles event.

But as a long-term fan (i.e. old) perfectionism makes anything dull. I`d take a little pre-rotation and landing snow to get exciting, distinctive programs.

 

[Private Citizen]

I'm disheartened when I see Sakamoto flutzing and not even getting an !, much less the "e" she deserves. Hendrickx also flutzes and underrotates almost all of her jumps, yet this is very rarely called. It seems like fan-pleasing skaters are getting a free pass from the callers.

 

[Rukia]

I'm disheartened when I see Sakamoto flutzing and not even getting an !, much less the "e" she deserves. Hendrickx also flutzes and underrotates almost all of her jumps, yet this is very rarely called. It seems like fan-pleasing skaters are getting a free pass from the callers.

Is this supposed to be something new? It's happened since time began.

 

[thvu]

Is this supposed to be something new? It's happened since time began.

I've mentioned this before, but I'll never forget the panel at 2016 Worlds reviewing ZERO of Medvedeva's jumps during the LP, only to then see Diana Barbacci Levy (technical controller) watch the replays on the jumbotron and not even flinch at Med's terrible flutz in slo-mo.

 

[rhapsody]

I see it as Shin is the most exacting and ethical caller. I'd love for Shin to call every single major singles event. The calling at Jr. Worlds was much better than the calling at 4CCs.

I agree. Which begs the question--why was Shin Amano MIA when the Eteri girls were dominating? What a coincidence that the one caller that calls everyone's jumps as he sees them wasn't given any assignments when these girls with cheated ultra C elements were taking the sport by storm.

 

[Evgeniafan]

I see it as Shin is the most exacting and ethical caller. I'd love for Shin to call every single major singles event. The calling at Jr. Worlds was much better than the calling at 4CCs.

Be fair. If he does women short, then do men long. I wish all tech controllers were like him, so the true winner wins. But if he is at a competition then divide it between both disciplines, not just women.

 

[Evgeniafan]

I agree. Which begs the question--why was Shin Amano MIA when the Eteri girls were dominating? What a coincidence that the one caller that calls everyone's jumps as he sees them wasn't given any assignments when these girls with cheated ultra C elements were taking the sport by storm

There are cheated jumps in men , too. Morisi and Daniel have been overscored.

 

[tony]

Be fair. If he does women short, then do men long. I wish all tech controllers were like him, so the true winner wins. But if he is at a competition then divide it between both disciplines, not just women.

How does this make any sense at all? Let the elements be judged accurately for one segment and then potentially let it all go out the window in the next segment? Sure, seeing protocols with 'e' and << down the list one day and nothing but the occasional ! and q the next is logical....

I really don't get it.

 

[Evgeniafan]

I'm disheartened when I see Sakamoto flutzing and not even getting an !, much less the "e" she deserves. Hendrickx also flutzes and underrotates almost all of her jumps, yet this is very rarely called. It seems like fan-pleasing skaters are getting a free pass from the callers.

I can't see edge calls in real time, but I can Underrotation. So if I can see plain as day, its a problem when its not called. And being a fan favorite should not matter. Plus not everybody likes these two skaters. I love Mai and Yelim.

 

[Evgeniafan]

I've mentioned this before, but I'll never forget the panel at 2016 Worlds reviewing ZERO of Medvedeva's jumps during the LP, only to then see Diana Barbacci Levy (technical controller) watch the replays on the jumbotron and not even flinch at Med's terrible flutz in slo-mo.

Its easy to pick on Evgenia. But she only had one Lutz against 2 programs. She should have been called on it, but so should all flutzes and lippers. But it bothers me more in the short program, 3 elements one is an axel, so the other 3 jumps should be severely scrutinized.

And when Evgenia was with Orser, she was dinged a lot . so its not Evgenia, but the Eteri bonus.

 

[tony]

Its easy to pick on Evgenia. But she only had one Lutz against 2 programs. She should have been called on it, but so should all flutzes and lippers. But it bothers me more in the short program, 3 elements one is an axel, so the other 3 jumps should be severely scrutinized.

So you want all flutzes and lips to be penalized but you want one of the only callers who actually stays consistent, and to my eye quite fair, to only have duties in one segment of an ISU Championship? I think you're contradicting yourself.

And FWIW, Amano has also been technical specialist of mens (ISU Championship) and pairs (domestic, no matter how small the field is) competitions as well. It's not exclusively picking on the women, but the fact is that many of them do continue to have problems fully rotating their jumps. Satoko Miyahara made a career two World medals with probably never landing anything more than a < (but usually QUITE apparent <<) Lutz and typically the flip, too.

 

[Evgeniafan]

So you want all flutzes and lips to be penalized but you want one of the only callers who actually stays consistent, and to my eye quite fair, to only have duties in one segment of an ISU Championship? I think you're contradicting yourself.

And FWIW, Amano has also been technical controller of men and pairs competitions as well. It's not exclusively picking on the women, but the fact is that many of them do continue to have problems fully rotating their jumps. Satoko Miyahara made a career two World medals with probably never landing anything more than a < (but usually QUITE apparent <<) Lutz and typically the flip, too.

I want a Shin type caller at all competitions for all disciplines. But he's one man, so don't use him for both women sp and fp, split him up between men and women. Therefore its fair. But again , I want all edge, Underrotation calls made. And not give a free pass for the final flight.

 

[Evgeniafan]

How does this make any sense at all? Let the elements be judged accurately for one segment and then potentially let it all go out the window in the next segment? Sure, seeing protocols with 'e' and << down the list one day and nothing but the occasional ! and q the next is logical....

I really don't get it.

Again, all tech controllers should be like Shin. And if he did the sp and another controller did the FP, it would show the difference in calls, so maybe that would make the changes in tech calling that would be fair.

 

[mtnskater]

Well it’s not as if calling is an exact science and that is what bothers me about it. Even Shin’s calling involves human subjective judgement based on a single video review angle. And often to the public a great skate including presentation, components and jumps that look good to the naked eye get a disappointing score and placement after the callers review. The public gets alienated and confused. I don’t like the quarter calls at all. Proper jumps are landed on curves. Makes quarters very difficult to call in my book. But I’m okay with >> under and edge calls. Maybe someday we will have AI involved to call with exact ice measurements. But in some respects all this nitpicking drives me bonkers when what I enjoy most in figure skating is the overall impression of the program. I remember both of Jason Brown’s programs at Nationals this year and always will….could care less if there were any subtle jump flaws.

 

[PRlady]

The decision to make URs the Biggest Crime was an overreaction to Sarah Hughes’ OGM. Personally I’m much more bothered by jumps that go up and down with a clunk and no runout and would penalise them at least as harshly. Jumps that start with a mule kick or low bow or spraddle, likewise.

I can’t see edge calls in real time either but of course want them called consistently.

 

[Willin]

@PRlady Yeah, and US ladies seem to be the biggest target of the calls - while Shin is strict, he's the only one that seems to call everyone's URs equally; otherwise it seems like the US ladies have by far the most calls even when other skaters are clearly underrotating. But I also think that's because they're easy pickings: more US ladies genuinely do seem to UR compared to skaters from other countries. Even skaters like Young You that learned to jump triples from a US coach have more URs.

ITA that URs aren't the biggest crime - I'm happy the instituted the q. I'd say edge calls should be more emphasized or treated more akin to a downgrade because an edge call means you're not even doing the correct jump.

 

[VGThuy]

Dinging for URs is one of those things that make so much sense because obviously, a landing that is more than a quarter short is a visible UR that should be obvious to the naked eye and will be disruptive… but it turns out it can actually be somewhat hard to tell with everything that is involved and the way the human body rotates vs. where the blade actually lands. Not only that but like… even when I see screenshots or pause the video, it’s hard to see spatially where the silver blade hits the white ice… is it on the ice or is there still a centimeter of space where the YouTube video is paused (not the best tech to use either because it doesn’t pause by the millisecond or even less) to where the skater still has some time to hit past the acceptable 45 degree mark.

Maybe to get rid of all questions, they should get rid of the quarter rule just call every jump that doesn’t hit 360 all the way under and those that are halfway rotated downgraded. It’s draconian, it’ll confuse audiences, etc. but it may be the only fair way to call URs. And maybe announce to the audience right then and there how many jumps were called under. Of course, that’s kind of what gymnastics had under the 2001-05 code of points where all those dance leaps and jumps killed an impressive gymnastics doing the most difficult skills’ base value and they ended up losing medals to basic but clean routines.

 

[her grace]

I want technology to make the underrotation calls. Something like hawkeye in tennis because it's blatantly obvious that the favorites get a different type of calling than the nobodies.

Edge calls would be harder to determine that way, but consistent calling would be appreciated.

And yes, to the judges needing to appropriately mark jumps with no height, no distance, and improper body positioning on take-offs and landings.

 

[Allskate]

I don’t like the quarter calls at all. Proper jumps are landed on curves. Makes quarters very difficult to call in my book. But I’m okay with >> under and edge calls.

I agree. I want the error to be a clear one and to genuinely be an error and not part of the nature of the jump. I also want the calls to be consistent, which they definitely are not. I don't think that's just because the underrotations are sometimes difficult to see. Sometimes it's bias. Also, Johnny has mentioned that, as a commentator, he has access to more camera angles than the technical callers do, which should not be the case.

 

[Willin]

I don’t like the quarter calls at all. Proper jumps are landed on curves. Makes quarters very difficult to call in my book. But I’m okay with >> under and edge calls. Maybe someday we will have AI involved to call with exact ice measurements. But in some respects all this nitpicking drives me bonkers when what I enjoy most in figure skating is the overall impression of the program. I remember both of Jason Brown’s programs at Nationals this year and always will….could care less if there were any subtle jump flaws.

I sometimes wonder if this is why the US ladies (and foreign skaters taught in the US) are more prone to URs? Like we're taught to land on a strong outside edge, so skaters tend to land a little shy of 360 to get that strong edge - though how shy varies by skater. We would practice that landing edge over and over, and it's frankly hard for me to land a jump straight backwards because it's hard to get that desired deep outside edge if you land essentially straight/flat back. I'd say 90 is the most you should be landing short to get that outside edge, but again, as you say it makes things fuzzy.

Maybe coaches elsewhere teach landings in a way that allows you to make the back edge different in some way? More shallow maybe?

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I'd say 90 is the most you should be landing short to get that outside edge, but again, as you say it makes things fuzzy.

If that's the case I would rather see the outside strong edge landing than have minor UR nitpicky calls.

 

[Karen-W]

Meanwhile, in real US Women's news... Audrey Shin announced her 2023-24 FS music on IG today - "Skyfall".

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

 

[Sylvia]

Of the U.S. women who competed internationally this season, I believe Jill Heiner was the first to announce 2023-24 program music (Feb. 1): https://www.instagram.com/p/CoH8hdmLv2C/
She went to California (during Nationals, IIRC) to have a new free skate choreographed by Nadia Kanaeva to music from Breakfast at Tiffany’s ("i can’t wait to debut it next season and embody holly golightly to the fullest!!").

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

The decision to make URs the Biggest Crime was an overreaction to Sarah Hughes’ OGM. Personally I’m much more bothered by jumps that go up and down with a clunk and no runout and would penalise them at least as harshly. Jumps that start with a mule kick or low bow or spraddle, likewise.

I can’t see edge calls in real time either but of course want them called consistently.

What's spaddle?

 

[PRlady]

What's spaddle?

Splayed legs, or legs further apart with the body closer to the floor/ice.

 

[Coco]

Given the limitations of the one camera angle, it seems like the trajectory in and out should be equally important as the blade on the ice when assessing how much rotation was completed in the air.