U.S. Women [#4]: How Dare You

[SkateFanBerlin]

US national callers have a pattern of not calling technical errors .....

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

All judges call higher in national competitions.....Japan, Italy, everywhere. Don't think it's about favorites; (though, all judges no matter how you try to control it, appreciate particular things. And certain skaters have more of the particular thing.) I think judges at nationals are trying to send the winners out on a happy note, confident. I agree it doesn't do anyone a service; they get that ding anyway when they reach international waters.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

forget it

 

[VGThuy]

FYI at 2018 Nationals, the callers dinged Karen hard and she still scored high enough to place third…it was the judges who decided those rankings, arguably underscoring Wagner on PCS, who knows.

At 2022, her flip didn’t get the usual E call that could have cost her like 1 to 1.5 points from her LP score but she still would have placed second. I don’t remember the SP that well but her score wasn’t that far off her SP score internationally for a clean routine. She has gotten clean calls before…even at Worlds!

 

[On My Own]

Karen's flip edge is variable. It isn't always outside, and sometimes it's perfectly okay. She was working on fixing it, and it's hard to change muscle memory when you're a grown adult, but it does mean that sometimes the hard work shows up. Much like her jumps aren't always under, no matter how some believe all 11 of her jumps are UR in any long program, despite what actually happens.

Why do some say "honest caller" when they just mean "someone who makes calls we agree with"?

Karen is also by far the best spinner of all the US ladies the past few quads, and has the best 3Lz and 2A too. Her musicality is excellent - I don't think anyone in the current US ladies field is better. These aren't trivial aspects of skating.

 

[Trillian]

Karen isn’t even a particular favorite of mine in the grand scheme of things, but it just seems silly to argue that she’s been less competitive internationally than other U.S. women. She finished fourth at Worlds twice. If the international panels didn’t want to reward her skating relative to other U.S. women in the same era, they had a weird way of showing it.

And yeah, nationals scores and tech calling can be a lot more generous than international scoring. Everywhere. This is not a U.S. specific “problem,” if you consider it a problem. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that scoring varies between international events too, and the only reason we see a fair amount of consistency between different “types” of events (GP, JGP, CS, etc.) is because everyone is working with the same unspoken, mostly unofficial agreement about the acceptable range of scores for specific events and specific skaters. These are made-up numbers that are ultimately really only useful for ranking skaters against one another. There’s nothing truly objective or scientific behind it.

 

[VGThuy]

Why do some say "honest caller" when they just mean "someone who makes calls we agree with"?

Yep, even if they're not always based on reality for that specific performance.

Back in the pre-TES box days (or during the first few incarnations where not much info was provided) how many times did we see posters celebrate a performance live as they saw it, and then ten minutes later say it was bad once the callers got through with it? Then it happens to one skater so we start scrutinizing them more and when they actually get clean calls once-in-a-while, we're automatically skeptical that those calls are "real".

 

[thvu]

Why do some say "honest caller" when they just mean "someone who makes calls we agree with"?

I will say the former when I do NOT mean the latter. I have watched numerous technical panels work, and have seen live, first-hand, callers/panels that play the "I can't call it if I don't review it" game. I have seen panels flag no elements for skaters like Medvedeva, and then just sit back, relax, and watch the replay of her obvious flutz on the jumbotron.

There are conscious or subconscious bias' at work other than just differing levels of subjectivity in perception.

 

[VGThuy]

There needs to be hardcore technical workshops, continuing education, and real review of callers' calls that can result in temporary or permanent suspensions. I know that sounds harsh, but these are medals and people's careers on the line. In sports, these things matter.

 

[On My Own]

I will say the former when I do NOT mean the latter. I have watched numerous technical panels work, and have seen live, first-hand, callers/panels that play the "I can't call it if I don't review it" game. I have seen panels flag no elements for skaters like Medvedeva, and then just sit back, relax, and watch the replay of her obvious flutz on the jumbotron.

There are conscious or subconscious bias' at work other than just differing levels of subjectivity in perception.

I respect your knowledge and intelligence, but not every person who says things about calls being missing over on forums has this knowledge or intelligence, which is why I say "some". There are definitely people with the know-how on how to make those calls and rightly point out the judging was flawed - but for "some", it only ever surfaces with skaters they dislike, and more hilariously, a lot of the time they're going off the existing reputation of being UR jumpers, NOT reality. This is why I take pause whenever I see "analysis" of how Vincent Zhou underrotated all his quads, or how Karen underrotated all her jumps including 2A (!!). You can hardly trust and enable every "expert" on the internet.

 

[VGThuy]

I just rewatched her 2022 Nationals LP performance...I don't know what calls she deserved that she didn't get. They reviewed like 3-4 of her jumping passes and I looked very closely, and thought the calling was accurate. Further, her flip entrance looked good here. GOE might be another issue, but she was far from the only skater to get generous nationals-inflated GOEs, let's put it that way.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Well it’s Tuesday afternoon/evening in the UK and Bradie is still on the list so each day the knot in my stomach gets less, lol

 

[thvu]

I respect your knowledge and intelligence, but not every person who says things about calls being missing over on forums has this knowledge or intelligence, which is why I say "some". There are definitely people with the know-how on how to make those calls and rightly point out the judging was flawed - but for "some", it only ever surfaces with skaters they dislike, and more hilariously, a lot of the time they're going off the existing reputation of being UR jumpers, NOT reality. This is why I take pause whenever I see "analysis" of how Vincent Zhou underrotated all his quads, or how Karen underrotated all her jumps including 2A (!!). You can hardly trust and enable every "expert" on the internet.

Oh, of course. This is why I don't do "skating twitter". It is a sea of the uninformed and irrational.

 

[VGThuy]

Oh, of course. This is why I don't do "skating twitter". It is a sea of the uninformed and irrational.

I had to run away from that. It was not a good place at all. It did remind me of the wild west days of internet skating message boards but at least those had some moderation and knowledgeable fans were able to write more than 180 characters in response at someone's nonsense.

 

[Coco]

Thank god for FSU, because all the gym message boards I frequented are ghost towns now. Twitter is a poor substitute. I may have to join reddit.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

All judges call higher in national competitions.....Japan, Italy, everywhere. Don't think it's about favorites; (though, all judges no matter how you try to control it, appreciate particular things. And certain skaters have more of the particular thing.) I think judges at nationals are trying to send the winners out on a happy note, confident. I agree it doesn't do anyone a service; they get that ding anyway when they reach international waters.

Conversely, the judging at Australian competitions I've watched in person is very conservative.

Studying the protocols sheets, they appear to be sticklers for detail and are able to give the athletes a realistic sense of what needs to be worked on and improved for international competition.

I would hate to be a judge. The pressure of making important decisions in real time and keeping a laser focus for hours on end, must be so intellectually taxing to maintain.

 

[Stephanie]

I just noticed on the USFS international assignments page that Kate Wang is listed as withdrawn from Warsaw Cup. I’m guessing this means her season is over (still waiting for Pacs senior ladies starting orders to confirm this).

 

[Debbie S]

I just noticed on the USFS international assignments page that Kate Wang is listed as withdrawn from Warsaw Cup. I’m guessing this means her season is over (still waiting for Pacs senior ladies starting orders to confirm this).

Not necessarily. Kate didn't have a bye to Nats, she would have had to compete at Sectionals regardless. Maybe she and her coach decided competing in back to back weeks was too much. We'll see if she's on the start order.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Looks like Bradie has arrived in the UK and I’m so happy for her. Hope she’s able to pull off two performances this weekend

Question – and this does not need to be debated for a long time. I’m just curious ..... if Bradie was healthy last year and made the US Olympic team which US lady would not have? I’m trying to remember… Karen? Would Mariah do you think have been on?

 

[tony]

Looks like Bradie has arrived in the UK and I’m so happy for her. Hope she’s able to pull off two performances this weekend

Question – and this does not need to be debated for a long time. I’m just curious ..... if Bradie was healthy last year and made the US Olympic team which US lady would not have? I’m trying to remember… Karen? Would Mariah do you think have been on?

Liu didn't finish the competition but she was behind both Chen and Bell after the short. She had the best early-season results of the entire group but Chen, Bell, and the addition of Tennell in the top 3 would've been a group of skaters all with Worlds experience, and Olympic experience for Bradie and Karen.

Who knows what the USFS would've done.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Liu didn't finish the competition but she was behind both Chen and Bell after the short. She had the best early-season results of the entire group but Chen, Bell, and the addition of Tennell in the top 3 would've been a group of skaters all with Worlds experience, and Olympic experience for Bradie and Karen.

Who knows what the USFS would've done.

Oh that’s right both Alysa and Amber withDrew for the free program right?

That’s right, with that factor thrown in there, who knows

 

[Wyliefan]

I can't believe they would have left Alysa off the team. At that point she was seen as the future. (I know, that didn't work out for Ilia, but Alysa had more senior experience than Ilia did, so she had the experience/future balance in her favor.)

 

[VGThuy]

I think if Bradie made the team and with Liu still withdrew from the LP...I think they would have named Liu on the team based on scoring potential and her past results being the best of the three women in contention...then just went with ranking between Mariah and Karen and left Karen off, or done a Worlds/Olympic split. In the case of the team competition, if it had been a 2018-19 like season for Tennell, I think she would have been put on the team depending on her world standing in comparison with Mariah, Karen, and Alyssa. However, with the lack of GP events or prior events, Tennell would just skate the individual. Then Alyssa may not want to skate the team event like she didn't want to in real life. Then Mariah or Karen would have done both the SP and LP.

 

[Karen-W]

Liu didn't finish the competition but she was behind both Chen and Bell after the short. She had the best early-season results of the entire group but Chen, Bell, and the addition of Tennell in the top 3 would've been a group of skaters all with Worlds experience, and Olympic experience for Bradie and Karen.

Who knows what the USFS would've done.

I can't believe they would have left Alysa off the team. At that point she was seen as the future. (I know, that didn't work out for Ilia, but Alysa had more senior experience than Ilia did, so she had the experience/future balance in her favor.)

Alysa would have been #1 on the team due to her Lombardia score, which put her in Group 2 priority ahead of Mariah, Karen and Bradie. Mariah and Karen were in Group 3 (Mariah's Rostelecom score & Karen's Worlds 2021 score) and a top 3 finish at Nats would have put Bradie in Group 3 also.

Mariah, based on her solid Rostelecom score (which was higher than Karen's Worlds 2021 score), would have been put on the team. Karen's scores were all over the place during the fall, so it would have probably come down to a choice between her and Bradie and I suspect it would have been whomever placed higher at Nats.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

If we're strolling the archives......

Was USFS wrong to send Ashley over Marai?

Was there a foor-tapping conspiracy to cheat Nancy out of Oly gold?

 

[tony]

Alysa would have been #1 on the team due to her Lombardia score, which put her in Group 2 priority ahead of Mariah, Karen and Bradie. Mariah and Karen were in Group 3 (Mariah's Rostelecom score & Karen's Worlds 2021 score) and a top 3 finish at Nats would have put Bradie in Group 3 also.

I thought we went over this a bunch of times that Alysa's group 2 status was under the condition that she actually finished Nationals and was in the top 5.

If I do have it correct, then she probably had no cushion over the other two from a criteria standpoint.

 

[Karen-W]

I thought we went over this a bunch of times that Alysa's group 2 status was under the condition that she actually finished Nationals and was in the top 5.

I went back and looked at the USFS Oly Team Qualification discussion thread and it was pointed out, at the time of KniFraz's late withdrawal that they could petition their way into Group 2 because of their season's scores. Same situation applies to Alysa the moment she WD after the SP - and probably was strengthened by her 3rd place in the SP.

 

[tony]

I went back and looked at the USFS Oly Team Qualification discussion thread and it was pointed out, at the time of KniFraz's late withdrawal that they could petition their way into Group 2 because of their season's scores. Same situation applies to Alysa the moment she WD after the SP - and probably was strengthened by her 3rd place in the SP.

Which she could've done, but she wasn't actually in group 2 because of Lombardia scores. And in this hypothetical, Tennell is also in play and potentially also scoring above her in the short program.

USFS would find a way to get what they wanted in any event.

 

[Karen-W]

Which she could've done, but she wasn't actually in group 2 because of Lombardia scores. And in this hypothetical, Tennell is also in play and potentially also scoring above her in the short program.

USFS would find a way to get what they wanted in any event.

She, she WAS in Group 2 because of her Lombardia score. Here's my update in the USFS' Athlete Selection Process for 2022 Olympics thread following the conclusion of the Women's FS at Nationals.

ETA - Group 2 only required top 5 at Nats, so even had Bradie been there and beat Alysa in the SP, Alysa still would have been no worse than 4th.

There's no doubt in my mind that Alysa would have been on the Olympic team, regardless of whether Bradie was at Nationals and in the mix or not.

FYI - Now that we have our first event complete!

Here's the update to the Group rankings for the Women:

	Group 1 Highest Priority	Group 2	Group 3	Group 4 Lowest Priority
CRITERIA FOR 2022 US CHAMPIONSHIPS	Placed in the top 3 AND	Placed in the top 5 / Pending Successful Petition* AND	Placed in the top 3 OR	Placed in the top 5 OR
CRITERIA FOR 2021 INTERNATIONAL SCORES *	Consistently scored equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds W – 217.20	Consistently scored equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds W – 208.44 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds W – 193.44 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 15 at 2021 Worlds W – 178.10 OR Scored once equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds

Group 2 - Alysa Liu* (205.74 Cranberry; 219.24 CS Lombardia; 207.40 CS Nebelhorn; 206.53 SCI; 202.90 NHK) withdrawn from Nationals 1/7 (C19), 3rd after SP

Group 3 -

• Mariah Bell (179.42 Cranberry; 190.79 IdF; 210.35 Rostelecom) 1st 2022 Nationals
• Karen Chen (208.63 Worlds 2021; 173.00 CS ACI; 202.49 CS Finlandia; 183.41 SCI; 194.00 IdF) 2nd 2022 Nationals

Group 4 -

• Amber Glenn (183.46 CS Finlandia; 201.02 SkAm; 175.83 NHK; 183.36 CS Golden Spin) withdrawn from Nationals 1/7 (C19), 14th after SP
• Lindsay Thorngren (181.45 JGP Courchevel 1; 193.77 JGP Ljubljana; 184.40 CS Warsaw; JGPF) 5th 2022 Nationals
• Gabriella Izzo (182.76 US Classic; 155.78 CS Warsaw; 167.96 CS Golden Spin) 4th 2022 Nationals

Others with International Assignments

• Starr Andrews (155.25 CS ACI; 177.63 SkAm; 157.35 CS Austria)
• Hanna Harrell (158.89 CS Golden Spin)
• Audrey Shin (174.73 Cranberry; 172.46 CS Lombardia; 160.78 SkAm; 169.99 CS Austria)
• Sierra Venetta (159.72 Cranberry; 177.40 US Classic)

 

[tony]

She, she WAS in Group 2 because of her Lombardia score. Here's my update in the USFS' Athlete Selection Process for 2022 Olympics thread following the conclusion of the Women's FS at Nationals.

What I'm pointing out is that who knows if the petition would've been successful in this hypothetical with Tennell-- which is what we are talking about after all So we have to consider that Liu was not group 2 YET. While one would think USFS would be giddy to send here, you can't know-- look at Malinin vs. Brown and how sure most people were of Malinin getting Olympics. I know he didn't have the track record, but still.

So, again, in this hypothetical, I understand it as Liu not group 2 because we don't know if she would've been able to successfully petition herself onto the team. If it were Tennell, Bell, and Chen (those two finishing as close as they did), then who stays home? Remember Chen got the team event assignment and she was a big part of why they had 3 spots anyways.

I guess they could've gone the Russia route and did a last-minute test event.